Great conversation with a past guest, Javin Foreman. Javin has devoted his life to helping others with his main focus on uplifting the next generation on young men.
A lot of topics covered on this episode:
Sit back listen in and feel free to leave a comment.
Great conversation with a past guest, Javin Foreman. Javin has devoted his life to helping others with his main focus on uplifting the next generation on young men.
A lot of topics covered on this episode:
Sit back listen in and feel free to leave a comment.
Robert (00:19.013)
Hey everyone and welcome back to Dad to Dad's podcast. And today I have an old friend with me, Javin Foreman. Javin, welcome back to the show.
Javin Foreman (00:26.438)
Oh man, it feels good to be back, man, back at like my second home here behind this screen talking to you.
Robert (00:32.21)
That's too much. No, we had a good time last time and I appreciate you coming back on and definitely great reception to you being on. And I think it brought awareness to a lot and I just appreciate you coming back on.
Javin Foreman (00:48.094)
Absolutely, man. You're doing some really, really important work, man. Just, you know, spreading knowledge, spreading the message, and motivating people, man. So I appreciate the work you're doing.
Robert (00:55.865)
Well, I thank you. And, um, before we go into everything, um, little background on you, the project or the project manager for the gentle warriors Academy, correct?
Javin Foreman (01:07.977)
Mm-hmm. Yup, and fathers incorporated for sure.
Robert (01:10.433)
at Fathers Incorporated. Tell us just a quick summary again about your upbringing in Chicago and just real quick kind of go through that.
Javin Foreman (01:17.806)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, cool, yes. Born and raised south side of Chicago. You know, grew up on the south side with my mom and my dad. They got divorced when I was about 12 years old, but had a really cool relationship. I'd spend, you know, a week or two weeks off and on between my parents. So what I say, I had a really, really good upbringing, a, you know, nice friend and family circle. You know, they kind of gave me the moral compass now that I carry with me into the world as I do the work I do and raise my own family.
Robert (01:45.669)
There you go. You know, Javin, I think there's some things we have in common. And one of those being, I think we're both very, very passionate about being a father and being the best dad that we can be. And I see that with your children. I see it with what you're doing outside of your children, with Fathers Incorporated. We have numerous conversations about
Javin Foreman (01:56.91)
sure.
Robert (02:15.289)
You know, being a father, being a dad, and especially around fatherlessness. And, uh, you know, we'll send stuff back and forth texts on different things. And you had sent me something, uh, interview and, you know, which led us to discussions and. I'm just going to throw it out there. There's really no, uh, I don't have it, uh, you know, any structure to this episode, but I'm going to throw it out there to you, your opinion. What do you think is the
biggest challenge right now facing fathers and especially fathers of color.
Javin Foreman (02:51.618)
Yeah, so I think in general, I think it has to do with...
Kind of perception, you know, I still think we're way, way behind in general when we talk about fathers in general and the importance of fathers. Like even with this work we're doing, Fathers Incorporated, I always talk to our CEO, Kenneth Braswell, I say we're about 15 years ahead of where stuff will go. You know, we just never have had this conversation as a society on how important fathers actually are. And we joke about it. I think we talked about it before, but, you know, dad's getting socks for Christmas and this sort of thing. It's just kind of this thing for whatever reason.
to supposedly a bigger person, or you look like you can take a lot of pain, you can take things, you're kind of brushed off and kind of pushed to the side. But I think we're at this place now in society where we just can't let this happen anymore. We have to recognize, even if it hurts other people's feelings for whatever reason, on the importance of fathers being present, having an opportunity to provide what they can for their own children. It's critical. So I think we're at that place now
We gotta either make this right turn or stay where we are. And, you know, we see where we're heading as a society.
Robert (04:04.077)
I think that's so true. Very true. I'm gonna laugh, you're talking about Christmas. I've been talking to the boys since before Thanksgiving about Christmas. What do you want? Give me ideas. I don't know how your children are, but they might have no idea what they want. And of course they wait till the last minute. Last night, we're on the way to the ball game, which you were at.
And my oldest looks to me goes, Oh, dad, are you wanting anything for Christmas? And I'm like, I haven't even thought about it. He's like, Oh, well, you can't get onto us then you can't tell us that we need to work on. I'm like, well, that's the first time you brought it up. Hey,
Javin Foreman (04:39.966)
Right, as an afterthought, right? Yeah.
Javin Foreman (04:56.33)
Yeah, yeah. But you can see the cycle, you know, how they're sort of being trained themselves, you know, in a sense as young men being reared in this society to not think about their own needs, you know, for us to not be as important, you know, when it comes to men, as important as, you know, our counterparts are.
Robert (05:15.073)
Yeah, so I want to, you know, I want to dig into it more. Fathers definitely are not as
They're not as valued today and they're not as big of a part. Don't play as big of a part as they did when we were younger. Now I'm, I'm a little bit older than you. I grew up seventies and eighties. Um,
Javin Foreman (05:37.934)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (05:40.977)
I feel like the family and you tell me, agree or disagree. I feel like the family unit is not what it was. And I mean, there's facts to back that up, but you tell, you tell me, is that.
Javin Foreman (05:52.09)
Yeah. I mean, there are definitely some things that needed to change about, you know, who men were as we go back and we look at some of these shows and was the.
the domineering, you know, man who you couldn't say anything to, was emotional, he had to sit by himself, or, you know, Archie Bunker types or whatever it might be. You know, he had all these perception fathers, and some of the stuff was sort of true. Or, you know, we've seen made men, for example, where, you know, guy goes and makes all the money, wife is a stay-at-home. So there were some things that needed to change about, you know, fatherhood and masculinity. But I think we just went too far with it, you know. But absolutely, the structure has changed. I mean, the data shows you, you know, particularly when you're talking about
black households, you know, you can see from 1950, 64% of people were married, you know, and now you go down to today in 2019, it's 38% of black men and black women are married. So you can absolutely see where this thing is kind of broken down. And I think one of the things you see is, as time has gone on, people don't necessarily need each other, in theory, to survive and make it, you know. That's one of the things that happens.
And you know one person could make enough of an income to do okay And so it just got to the point like why should I deal with somebody else in this in this structure? You know a lot of selfish selfishness kind of kicked in
Robert (07:11.741)
Good point. Um, do they need, yes. Do they, do they need somebody else to raise a family? No. Can they make the money on their own? And you know, if you want to say, okay, can a mom make the money on her own and have children? Yes. But is that what is healthiest for the children? Agree or disagree? I say, no, it's not. I feel that they need both parents actively involved. And you know, you talk about the divorce rate. Yeah.
Javin Foreman (07:33.302)
not wrong.
Robert (07:41.913)
divorce rate and let me say this. We are not picking on any race. We're not picking on moms, any of that. We are very pro moms. Moms definitely are extremely valuable. And all we're doing is we're just kind of highlighting the data that is clear, but you talk about divorce by race. I mean,
Javin Foreman (07:56.174)
sure.
Robert (08:09.261)
Yeah, it's, it's definitely gone up in, if you want to say in the black community, as well as the Hispanic community, it is tripled. If you're looking back in the sixties to now it's tripled and almost tripled by one percentage point in the white community, which that's interesting. And then you go start going into and you're looking at, you know, um, uh,
Children being so four and ten children in this the United States. So United States has the highest rate of single mothers of Children being born out of wedlock out of any I mean, which is just amazing out of any developed country They have the highest and four and ten children are born to unwed mothers Which is crazy You know, and if you look and the highest
Javin Foreman (08:56.078)
Mm-hmm.
Javin Foreman (09:03.662)
crazy.
Robert (09:09.009)
The highest rate is, well, it's increased amongst everybody. The biggest increase is in the white community.
Um, now it is the highest in the, in black, but the biggest increase year over year since the fifties is in the black community, I mean, as in the white community, that's the, that's the largest increase and you're, I love to have your thoughts on that is why, because, and let me, let me say this when I, well, first, yeah, let me have your thoughts on that. We'd love to have your thoughts on that.
Javin Foreman (09:48.722)
So, you know, I think we have to begin, you know, when we think about our country, I think we have to begin to examine the messaging and the media that we're putting out there. You know, I think they show, you know, the really, you know, sexy, attractive, single female, you know, sex in the city does what she wants to do, super liberated, you know.
has a great lifestyle, sleeps with who she wants to sleep with, there are consequences that come with that. You know, you think about the black community, salacious rappers, you know, putting these messages out, oh I'm this, I'm that, you know. And so, there are consequences behind it. Like, that's one of the bigger messages that we have with the guys that we serve. You know, you've been in that thing for 18 years, you know, with this person that you barely knew. You know, you barely had a relationship with, per se. And I think a lot of it is the attitudes and beliefs
from the media that's put out in this country. I think we have to be real about it, you know, when you look at other countries, we can say communism and whatever it might be, but they're controlling that stuff because we know from a sociological, you know, standpoint, that stuff is not good for us to consume, you know, and so these messages are being passed on, you know, they've been put in the water and people are drinking them and so, you know, the other thing I always think about is you, as we think about our children, there's certain things they don't know
seen it right so if you talk about you know four and ten right now that's the only way they've seen it so they really don't know when I've seen most of my friends parents were married they see it as most of my friends parents aren't married or there's another friend that got a divorce whose parents got a divorce so it's kind of normalized now so
I think one of the solutions is I believe the government should begin to incentivize you know people stand together incentivize marriage incentivize counseling you know as a society to create a strong society I mean marriage is no question is the backbone of society now if it's not marriage now you at least have to figure out healthy co-parenting at the very least everybody's not gonna stay together marriage is tough right but you at least have to figure out what healthy co-parenting is.
Javin Foreman (11:57.798)
looks like.
Robert (11:59.173)
I love that and I love that incentivizing. That's a point I wanted to make. You know, if you look at since 1965, LBJ increased welfare substantially and started rewarding women, incentivizing them to have children and children out of wedlock. And by doing so, let me say this, incentivizing them financially and those same incentives, if you're married,
They go away. They're not there. If you get married, they're not there. But if you're a single mom, you are incentivized. And the other thing too, and you know this with the guys you work with, if a female has a baby from Roger and gets child support, and then she has one from Tom, let's just say she's getting $800 from Roger, she gets $800 from Tom.
She has one from bill. She gets $800 there. However, she has another one from bill. She doesn't get another $800. That amount goes down. So it's in there incentivizing multiple to have babies from multiple fathers. And that's wrong. And I think, I think that has had a huge, you know, I, I don't think these, I don't think there was an nefarious reason for putting these in place.
Javin Foreman (13:04.578)
Alright. Mm-hmm.
Javin Foreman (13:15.474)
Absolutely.
Robert (13:26.585)
the, you know, the, these incentives, I think it was to help at the time, but I think it has been taken advantage of. And I love what you're saying about incentivizing parents, incentivizing staying together because you know, that that's gone away.
Javin Foreman (13:31.03)
Mm-hmm.
Javin Foreman (13:42.219)
100%.
Javin Foreman (13:45.4)
Yep.
And if we know if it's the backbone of our society, and what makes a healthy society, healthy economy, balanced children, I mean, it's the only way. And so agreeing, I don't think it was a nefarious thing either when that policy was put in place. It's helped a lot of people, no question. When people are taking steps up from that and use it correctly, but you'll always have people who look at things like this is a way for me to make it. And then I think unintentionally also,
Robert (14:03.159)
lot.
Javin Foreman (14:15.976)
it's killed people's spirit. People need to work. People need an opportunity to express themselves spiritually. They need to work. They need something to do, someone to love. That's the three things they say. What is it? You need three things to keep going in life. Something to do, someone to love, and I think it might be looking for something to look for. You need those three things in life just to kind of survive and thrive. I think you sort of dampened people's ability to be self-sufficient.
Robert (14:36.263)
Yeah, I could call them.
Javin Foreman (14:45.796)
self-actualized. Now one of the things I will say, I've been a part of a bunch of programs you know that were meant to you know social service types programs and I think one of the things that happened also is that you get people who administer these programs who just may not be the best and brightest talent also. So you know why this thing is being administered. You know for example as we think about you know trying to solve youth crime for example when
Javin Foreman (15:15.876)
who the kids are who are doing this stuff, right? You know, they come into contact with them, you know, you know what school they're in, or you have things that are happening at a school, you can say, this kid is on the track to do this. You know, how do you go about, you know, dealing with whatever this young person's issue might be before it turns into something larger? So I just think people don't use data the way they should now, you know, we're not really thinking about this thing holistically. Like, how do we really attack and solve this problem?
Robert (15:44.161)
I totally agree. And I was telling you earlier about the conversation I had, um, with the Amazon driver and we were talking, we were talking about some kids that had stolen a bunch of packages out of a, uh, Amazon van. And, um, you know, his first thing was about blaming the parents and, and that there's, there's isn't a dad. I think that is, um, extremely true. I'm gonna tell you a story. I was.
Last week, the boys and I were having dinner and they were telling me, I was asking him how things are going at school and they were telling me about different instances, you know, with the good and the bad. And they were telling me about some of the things that have happened recently. Uh, they both had stories about between classes, uh, someone smoking pot in the classroom, in the actual class, in the classroom.
Javin Foreman (16:36.898)
Wow.
Robert (16:41.913)
Um, and the boys know both of the kids that did this and they were like, dad, good kid, you know, but just like good at the core, but just no structure. No, you know, you know, and, and so why do you think they're doing it? It said probably dad, my oldest said, dad, probably to get attention, probably to get attention and probably to see what he could get away with. I said, yeah, probably.
Javin Foreman (16:41.928)
one.
Javin Foreman (17:06.284)
Yes.
Robert (17:10.805)
wants somebody to say no, there's another kid, um, same age as my oldest and your oldest went to school at the same elementary school and he was talking about how the kid used to be such a good kid, quiet, but how he's gotten in such a bad crowd and how he's stealing these, uh, well, he's SIM cards and you know, breaking into
Javin Foreman (17:13.56)
Yep.
Javin Foreman (17:22.11)
Mm-hmm.
Javin Foreman (17:31.116)
Yes.
Javin Foreman (17:36.398)
Mmm.
Robert (17:39.577)
you know, different things and breaking into automobiles and just running with the wrong crowd. I'm going to have you do a wild guess. What do you think the common denominator between all three of those are?
Javin Foreman (17:53.026)
Yeah, I bet it's very little, very little involving with their fathers, you know. Yep.
Robert (17:56.773)
There's no dad involved in all three of them. No, absolutely no dad involved. And this is not a race thing because there are different races amongst those. Um, but there, there's no structure there. And so it's like, Deb, I mean, I asked the kids, I'm like, why do you, okay. So they're doing this and you're saying they're actually good kids. You're good kids. Why don't you do it? Well, we'll get in trouble. And I'm like, all right, let's say you didn't get in trouble.
Javin Foreman (18:02.102)
100%.
Javin Foreman (18:22.506)
in a second.
Robert (18:25.893)
Let's say you didn't get in trouble at school. Let's say you didn't get suspended. Why don't you do it? They're like laughing. They said, dad, you wouldn't, you wouldn't be very happy. They said, you know, you would be mad. And, uh, and they know like, yeah, you go, you go, there's going to be some severe punishment and I do think that is what we're missing. I mean, I think we've gotten away from it. And I know I harp on this a lot, but I think we've gotten away from that. And.
Javin Foreman (18:36.971)
right.
Robert (18:53.305)
That is the, I think my, I guess my point is this, you know, I was trying to highlight to the, to the boys and the guy yesterday we were talking and it's not, I don't really blame the kids that much. I mean, yeah, did they go out and cause this? Yeah. But man, if you're not taught and if you don't have, if there aren't repercussions, whether that's through, you know, the judicial system, but especially at home.
Javin Foreman (19:12.524)
Right.
Javin Foreman (19:22.183)
Right.
Robert (19:23.373)
You know, I mean, he told me he was, uh, and I hate to keep talking, but he was telling me a story I thought was fascinating. He was saying that when he was a kid, he went into a store, him and him and his buddy, and he stole this little bitty store, a toy soldier, and he got caught. And, um, and he said the person there, they called his parents, you know, the store workers called his parents. And he said the whole time when his dad was there, he was furious.
like furious and he did not want to go home and like, yeah, we're not going to press charges. He said he's looking, he's thinking, Oh, I hope you, I wish you would cause I don't want to go home. And he said he got home. He said he looked like a cartoon character. He said he was running from his dad all around the room. Didn't want his dad kept saying that he was going to light them up. And he said, you know what? I didn't steal a thing. He said, I was a good kid. He said, that was, that was it. And that's what we're missing.
Javin Foreman (19:52.5)
and
Javin Foreman (20:02.905)
Hey
Javin Foreman (20:09.922)
Yep.
Javin Foreman (20:19.959)
Yep.
Yeah, consequences, you know, and life has consequences. So what you find is, you know, you're keeping, you're able to continually evade consequences. You know, it makes me think of a kid, I don't know if you heard this story happen in Atlanta, it's probably been about three months now where the kid in Buckhead, it was a valet, I believe it was a valet right on Piedmont someplace, and he stole a car from a valet, he was breaking into cars, and a valet person came and confronted him, he shot the valet person. This was a kid that was in my program
the Fulton County Juvenile Courthouse, man. So I remembered as soon as I saw his picture, I was like, wait a second, you know, because there was a manhunt going on for about three months, two months here, he was evading the police. I was like, man, this kid looks so familiar, Randy.
Robert (20:52.836)
Ah.
Javin Foreman (21:05.786)
Looking so I looked up in my old notes and I thought he was a kid who was in my program I could never get him to come he only came maybe one time to one of my sessions I did it's a single mom and I don't want to bash the single moms because Lord knows man they have There you know they're up to here and trying to maintain a house just do what they can you know Um, you know and then still live lives and I think that's the other thing that happens, you know with a single mom Imagine that you're trying to date still you're trying to find a mate
Robert (21:24.631)
Agree.
Javin Foreman (21:36.)
You have a new man that you're trying to cater to and you know build a relationship. You're trying to work Lord knows man. It is so tough. You know that lack of stability, but you know this kid threw away So originally he was there stealing cars breaking the cars and you could just see the chain of events Happened when he first stopped coming to he was there initially for breaking in the cars
The next year he was never coming. I could never get you know, I would talk to his mom periodically what's happening with him He made the news before he um was way out somewhere south I can't remember was but got into a shootout with the police him and another kid or something like that got into a shoe Stolen another stolen car issue till he went up to this place and took somebody's life, you know So that's something that could be Stopped right there, you know, put your finger in the dam right there when he steals the toy soldier
when you see it, you know, but these, I see the moms crying out for help and saying, where are the mentors? There are no mentor programs around, you know, and it's so true. Black men, we're the least ones to actually mentor. As much as our young people need mentors, we are the fewest mentors that are out there, but we can think about why. You know, we're as a people.
Robert (22:47.717)
Yeah, why is that?
Javin Foreman (22:49.066)
Yeah, we're on the lowest, lowest totem of the economic scale. So same thing. Black men are trying to make it too. You know, so you're like, man, I probably don't have anything to offer this kid. I'm working two jobs. You know, I see it. We had to do virtual with my fatherhood program because these guys are working, man. They're working around the clock in some cases. We got guys that take our classes while driving trucks. You know, so people are just so exhausted, but you know, we have to find a way, you know, to do it. And so what I've seen,
some of the best mentors I've seen may not necessarily be black people. I've seen some awesome white people come over or mentor kids and they learn along the way also. And it's for that young person, it's exposure also. But I think everyone has to kind of put something in the pot if we're gonna solve this. But it starts with identifying who the young people are. It would already be a major issue by the time they come to court, they're in court,
child support or whatever it might be, whatever issues are happening, I try to give those two people as many wraparound services as I could, incentivize them. If you're not filing TPO's against each other, if you're not violating the visitation orders, you know, maybe you get some kind of incentive at the end of the year. You know, I'm able to get feedback on what's happening in the household, how things are working out. If you finish this parenting class, you get $500. A co-parenting class, you get $1,000.
Javin Foreman (24:19.04)
so that we can give people, because it's just knowledge and it's just information. People just need the information, a new perspective, a new way to look at things. And one thing we do know is everybody's trying to make it. So a few dollars here and there or, you know, some types of incentive would help people, you know, make better healthy choices.
Robert (24:38.081)
I agree. You just had to be careful with how you. Strong. I totally agree, but you have to be careful with how you structure that. So it's not taken advantage of, um, because as you said earlier, you know, people can find a way to cheat the system and you know, you said something else. I totally agree. Uh, look, single moms. I mean, my mom, my dad died when I was 10 and it was single mom raising my sister and I, and she had her hands more than full.
Javin Foreman (24:46.711)
for sure.
Robert (25:06.733)
of lot, you know, trying to raise us. She was a wonderful mom. You know, gave us everything we needed. We didn't, you know, we didn't have everything we wanted, but we had everything we needed and overwhelmed us with love and support as well, which I think is the most important. You know, I think where I have an issue, it's where the moms, look, some moms are thrust into a position that
they should not be in that they never asked to be in. And there are some, you know, despicable or guys that just don't man up, you know, they're willing to have sex and let's just say, they're willing to have sex nut in a female and then not willing to take the responsibility. But,
it where I had the issue, it's where the moms are, are where the females will use the system or to use having babies for their financial gain. I mean, that's, that's where that's where that's where I have a issue with that. And, you know, and it's more of looking at the children as a revenue stream as an income source.
Javin Foreman (26:13.966)
Absolutely.
Javin Foreman (26:18.468)
Mm-hmm.
Javin Foreman (26:33.174)
You know, and even beyond that part, sometimes they're used as kind of an emotional frisbee. It's a way for me to punish this man because in some cases he didn't wanna be with me.
Robert (26:40.615)
There you go.
Javin Foreman (26:44.958)
you know, or the relationship didn't work out, I don't like who he shows that he is at this point, right? So I think that's the most dangerous person. We have the term dead beat dead. We don't even have a term, you know, toxic, toxic man. We don't even have a term for a woman who's irresponsible, it's not in our business. Women can opt out. The other thing that's crazy, women can opt out of parenthood, right? They can put a child up for adoption. A man can't opt out.
Robert (26:45.777)
Good point.
Robert (27:08.027)
Yeah.
Robert (27:11.409)
True.
Javin Foreman (27:11.594)
If he decides I don't want to be with this woman, I don't want to have that child. You told me you're pregnant. I don't want to have that child. He does not have the right to opt out, right? And I wouldn't want to use it as a cop out, but we just have to look at these things and we have to look at the emotional toil that it takes on men. Very few, I've seen very few men, this deadbeat dad thing, I've seen very few that have come in like, look, I'm just not gonna handle my responsibility. I don't want to. By the time they get some information, you know, I think it's an in...
that's baked inside of us as humans, you know, like a survival thing. We're connected to that child. I think I talked about it before. You know, I think it's akin to you spending nine months, you know, planting a garden. You know, you're tilling it, you're doing everything that needs to be done for it for that nine months. And now when everything comes, you know, comes up, it sprouts, you never get to see it. Imagine that would do to you. You know, you'd never get to see the...
Robert (28:07.886)
Yeah.
Javin Foreman (28:10.382)
fruits of kind of, you know, what it is that you've done and just kind of like, man, I wonder what my child would be like. So I think it takes an extreme emotional toil, you know, on me and when they're children, you know, I kept away from them.
Robert (28:22.969)
No, that's good. Um, I want to go back, you know, talking about the divorce rate and looking at families and you know,
You know, it's gone up significantly since the sixties, especially if you go back even to the forties and fifties. I mean, gosh, I can't believe it's almost a hundred years, but you know, when I think about, and I can talk to this from, you know, from being a white man, but when I think about growing up and look at families of color,
Javin Foreman (28:44.657)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (29:05.977)
And while I think I shared this with you, I mean, my
Robert (29:11.509)
My first thoughts, like if you were to say, okay, growing up, how do you view a family of color? You know, African-American family, black family. What are your thoughts? What are the words that come to mind? Resilient, strong, loyal, and proud. Also, when you think about the family unit, it wasn't just
Javin Foreman (29:24.078)
Mm-hmm.
Javin Foreman (29:32.151)
For sure.
Robert (29:40.833)
Mom, dad, and siblings. It was the uncles, the aunts, cousins, and sometimes it's friends that, um, weren't related, but they might be called an aunt or, you know, an uncle or a cousin and they weren't, but they certainly felt like it.
Javin Foreman (29:45.122)
Mm-hmm. Yup.
Robert (30:04.901)
Your thought excuse me your thoughts on that like me saying that what is what comes to your mind?
Javin Foreman (30:08.51)
Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, I think it's no question, you know, I mean, you could look back and, you know,
Black people, we wouldn't put our elders in homes and that sort of thing. When they get older, grandma will be living with us. You had an uncle in that back room back there who nobody ever saw, but he was taken care of. And so I think a couple of things happened. I think the more we've gotten ingrained into this American system in a sense, a climb in the corporate ladder, and these things, the more selfish we've gotten.
We see these things go away. I think the study the thing to look at would be the Latino family who they are super duper Family-oriented, but they've come over with their culture and they've come over with their work ethic You know, they've come over, you know, just with their family base, you know as more as and I think they are beautiful people You know but I think the thing to sort of watch out for is as they get more ingratiated into you know, This American system which a lot of it is capitalism, you know
capitalism, you know, that just these unintended consequences, you know, so I think we saw it in the fifties. People needed to stay together, you know, to, to make it, you know, now you see it where it's not quite as important like we talked about earlier. So, but I agree with you, you know, and I think this economy may force people to get back. They say now it's a real trend. I think it's been since COVID is that I can't remember. They have a term for it, but people who were divorced or separated, but we're still living together because economically they,
could not afford to live apart, you know? And so, I mean, it's something to be needed and to work together. There's value in that and working together. You know, it may not always be the easiest thing, but in working together for a common goal, particularly around your children, you know? So, yeah, I agree with you. You know?
Robert (31:47.355)
Right.
Robert (32:05.049)
Yeah. No, you're right. And you know, on the side, I work with people that are going through a divorce and a group setting and, um, they either recently divorced or have gone through and you're that with the COVID you're a hundred percent correct. Um, there's a lot of people that will come in and, you know, we've tried to make it work or, you know, we'll talk to at the intake and
they're thinking about it and while they would have gotten divorced prior to, um, you know, are, are there in a financial situation now where they can't do it, where it's not the, it's not the best for them to have a divorce. They're underwater with their house or whatever it may be. There's no equity. Um, you know, you, you see that, um, how much do you think social media?
Javin Foreman (32:34.445)
Mm-hmm.
Javin Foreman (32:39.788)
right?
Robert (32:58.513)
the music, the media in general, and my least favorite, the Kardashians. How much do you feel that is playing a part of destroying the family unit or devaluing the family unit?
Javin Foreman (33:06.496)
Man.
Javin Foreman (33:20.334)
Yeah, I mean, I would say it's the most dangerous thing, particularly.
Like I said, when you're talking about young people who don't have any frame of reference from things past, I can remember when TikTok first came out and my daughter was watching it. And I was like, wow, these little 15 second clips, that's gonna kill your attention span to be able to watch, you know, something for 30, 40 minutes. We'd sit and watch two hours and 30 minute movies, you know, three hours. You'd be like, wow, that was long, but you would sit there. They really can't sit down and watch, you know, a 45 minute explainer video on something.
They can probably watch somebody play fortnight for 30 minutes because it's all this action happening in these things And so I'm not gonna blame them. It's a new way of learning You know, it's probably other ways you can go about learning things, but This is there
particular learning module behind the screen, a visual thing. You know, it's tough to get these kids to actually read a physical book. You know, they're not going to choose it on their own to read a physical book. So I think it's the most dangerous thing. That's social media. I think when you get into the music, it's incredibly influential, you know, to these young people, the visuals that have come with it and everything. It's, it's unbelievable. So, and I know we sound like old guys mentioning that sort of thing, but we have a frame of.
Robert (34:37.691)
Ha ha!
Javin Foreman (34:40.604)
You know, we have, we can tell you, hey, don't go down that path. You know, I remember a song by Gil Scott Heron where it said, down some road, some one way roads, there's no turning back. You know, get yourself down, down some of these holes and traps. And I want to tell a quick story that made me think about when you were talking about your son's kids at school. So, a kid on Z's basketball team.
He told me he dad's remember the kids such as such. He's like, yeah, he quit the team. I'm like really I was like Yeah, I was like, um why he was like, um, man You know He didn't feel like he was getting enough playing time and that sort of thing and that uh, and as a father if that happened Man, you got to work that out. You got to work it out, man You got to stick in figure out what happened you'll ask coach what you can do a father's gonna give him that lesson You know and um, I was like man. I was like, um, he's like, yeah, you know, it's kind of rough on him I you know I think it was his mom passes something
Robert (35:23.993)
Yeah, yeah.
Javin Foreman (35:32.784)
just lives with his with his older brother now or something like that. So you can see all this stuff happening. Right. It's like.
Robert (35:38.858)
I know exactly who you're talking about too. Cause I know his older brother, yeah.
Javin Foreman (35:43.338)
We should see that and we should give this kid some wraparound services to say, cause you can see the path that this kid is probably gonna go down. There's only one or two choices now. If he has his phone up every day and everybody's getting money and everybody is so great and doing all of this stuff and you know, kids scoring 30 points in their basketball games and the highlights he's seeing, what's gonna happen to his psyche? You know, it's A plus B equals C. So I think we just have to start connecting the dots and just be real about it, man.
media stuff is doing a number on young people.
Robert (36:17.005)
Yeah, I think it's horrible. You know, and we do sound like old guys and we are, um, I think about when I was growing up in the different music coming out and people would be like, Oh, that's satanic. You can't listen to that or, Oh, they're, they're dressed this way or, Oh, they're, you know, insinuating sex. And now I mean, you've got, you know, female rappers talking about eating.
Javin Foreman (36:27.274)
Right.
Javin Foreman (36:42.634)
Yes. Yep.
Robert (36:43.449)
eating ass and everything else. And it's like, oh my gosh. And you see the path they're going down. And yeah, I mean, do we sound like the old guys? Maybe if you want to say old, maybe you want to just say wise.
Javin Foreman (36:57.834)
Right, right, but it almost seems systematic like they did it with the.
with the guys already, you know, with the male rappers, they did it already. You can see these guys now catching Rico charges, rappers getting killed left and right, there's never before again, this is all this generation knows, rappers get killed when Tupac and Biggie got killed. That was a huge thing. It was a 20 gap before another rapper got killed, you know. But now you can see, okay, we got the guys and now they're working on the females now. With this, it's just an onslaught of female rap that's coming out. That's, you know.
Robert (37:18.747)
Yeah.
Robert (37:32.025)
So do you think, you said it, do you think it's a systematic thing?
Javin Foreman (37:36.878)
I don't think it's intentional. I almost think as humans, we almost have a death wish to destroy ourselves for whatever reason, you know? So I just think it's this consciousness that exists, that's out here that you have to tap into some type of higher frequency to avoid. You know, it's like we're trying to destroy ourselves. We can all see it like you write, the wise men. But when the wise men are gonna step up and say, this is not right, we're not doing this. No.
Robert (38:05.029)
Yeah.
Javin Foreman (38:07.592)
It was the rapper that was pushing back. And again, the other thing we have to think about with young people is adolescent brain development. Their brains are not developed. You know, boys in particular are gonna do risky behavior. They're gonna be involved in these types of things. So we have to protect them. Like I always said about my younger, so I'm like, boy, I had to do everything I could from one to six to keep you alive. This kid would do anything, jump off stuff and fall out of places I'd have to catch him. Just, I'm like, that's my only job right now is to keep you alive, kid.
So...
Robert (38:36.913)
Man, he's a cute one too, I'll tell you what. He looks like a handful, he probably is, but what a great kid though, man. I mean, he is, he is. As frustrating as he might be at times, I bet you he gives you some of your biggest smiles too.
Javin Foreman (38:42.551)
Yeah.
Javin Foreman (38:46.326)
and get them. Yes.
Javin Foreman (38:51.954)
Oh man, no question man. He'll just say some stuff man. You know and I thought about it shoot I'm glad I didn't stop it too because that guy there man, you know, but
And you know, again, in thinking about this stuff, I don't think it's this nefarious plan. People are used to, they have an interview with Leer Cohen, who was the head of Def Jam for many years, one of the largest rap labels that are out there. He's on the Breakfast Club. And you know, Charlamagne the guy, one of the hosts asked him, he was like, man, how can you justify some of the music that you've put out? You know, some of these, and now he's gotten into it. After leaving Def Jam, I think his label is 300 or something like that, where they signed some of the raunchy.
rap guys most quote-unquote make themselves look dangerous kind of guys and so he was like hey he's like my family has to eat he said as callous as possible but the difference is and this is what I've always said about the rap stuff is
Some people, particularly black people, we have to go back and live in these communities where you've now turned these children into war soldiers. You know, children of war. You've put that mentality in them. They're breaking into cars. And you know, imagine you're a hardworking person that what you could afford was a Kia, and now they have videos online about how to break into Kia's, and this is how simple it is. And you come out and your car is gone.
and you're doing everything you can to make it. And so it's just really, really sad that we don't see it as a whole and as a society to say, this just is not good for us as a whole.
Robert (40:11.876)
Yeah.
Robert (40:25.273)
Yeah, my personal feeling is we've gotten so much away from God. We've gotten so much, the spirituality, um, that we as a society, we have. I think, I think that has a lot to do with it, you know, and then you look at kind of going on what you're saying. The more extreme you can be, whether it's especially online, the more extreme you can be, whether it's through your actions, a tick tock.
Javin Foreman (40:31.606)
Yes.
Javin Foreman (40:52.024)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (40:54.093)
a song, whatever it may be, the more likes you're going to get, the more you can push it. And we're seeing that. And I do believe that these minds are being warped.
Robert (41:10.233)
uh, you know, by listening to this, by watching these and it's, Oh, what can I do? What, what, you know, and there's nobody there to, to change things.
Javin Foreman (41:16.91)
Right. Exactly. That's the point. If it's nobody there, see, my sons listen to some of the music, right? But I'm there to explain to them.
Yo, that's not cool. Listen to what he's saying right there. You need to understand that. But if mom is upstairs cooking and she's doing her stuff and she's trying to get their school lunches ready for the next day and she's doing all this stuff, she doesn't have time to monitor what's really happening. It takes two parents, right? It takes two people, but I can explain to my son, you remember that kid that used to work, that used to be in my program over in Fulton County? You know, this is what happened with him. You keep listening to that, this is what they're telling you about.
You know, so you need something to kind of decode that stuff for these young people.
Robert (41:55.196)
Yeah.
Robert (41:58.618)
Can I, I hope you don't mind me asking you this question. I'm throwing this out there.
Robert (42:05.057)
hesitate to ask you I feel like I can ask you anything and if you if you don't like answering it we can edit this out how do you talk to your two sons how do you talk to your children about race and of being how do you how do you talk to them about that of you know being a person of color and future expectations all of that what to expect what to prepare for do you mind me asking you that
Javin Foreman (42:23.286)
Yep.
Javin Foreman (42:28.811)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Absolutely. I think that's a great question, you know, and I think, you know, it would lead some insight, you know, and so because I think there are a lot of things that as black people that we know and understand that I think white people in this country and I think even other people of on this country, other people of color like Latinos may not understand, right? And so my biggest thing is always a from a moral standpoint is that people are people, you have good people and you
the first primary message, but you know, there's a societal and systematic thing, it's why I think it's almost this innate thing that I think that are inside of people, you know, that's almost divisive that you can't even really control. There's a book called My Grandmother's Hands where a guy, I believe he's a psychologist, and he wrote a book about it. He says the way that black people and white people have been...
socialized in this country, it leads to certain things. He was like...
Some of these police officer shootings and things like that, it may not be that this guy was racist or something and had hatred for this young person, but he's been trained and conditioned in his mind. If I see an 11-year-old or a 13, no matter how old it is, black kid, you know, that dresses hip hop, in my mind, he's already a suspect, right? Whereas as black people, I can look at a kid, a black kid in particular,
Robert (43:48.413)
Hmm.
Javin Foreman (44:06.16)
some things about him. Whether it is what kind of what this kid is, probably some of it is the work that I've done and that sort of thing. But to answer your question the best I can, I think I try to prepare my children for, particularly my sons, for what is really out here, for what you have to be careful for. For example, police interactions, as they get older and begin to start driving and things like that. The thing is to make it home. To me, you don't have to prove yourself to be big and bad.
and that sort of thing, but you want to make it home and then deal with that stuff later. You know, but I think you have to be honest, you know, but you don't want to jade children, you know, where they go in, you know, kind of looking for the worst in people, you know, but I do think I've had my son, particularly my youngest, I told you he's a piece of work, well, he's come home and said, hey man, dad, my art teacher, I don't know what's going on, but he asked me, I was the only one he asked me to clean up three times this week.
Robert (45:05.155)
Really?
Javin Foreman (45:05.866)
So he saw that from the lens of why am I being asked? And the teacher, and sometimes what it is, we do have to check what our own biases are, right? We all have biases. It's no question, you know, I may see, or, you know, I think one of the things that happens. Yep.
Robert (45:10.608)
Yeah.
Robert (45:21.977)
And he goes to a predominantly white elementary school. Your youngest does, just for people listening.
Javin Foreman (45:28.883)
Yep, so I think people have to be sensitive about those kinds of things from other people's lenses. So yeah, it's a tough conversation to have, but it's necessary.
Javin Foreman (45:44.744)
Yeah, that's the best way I would break it down for you.
Robert (45:46.997)
Interesting. You know, I wonder
When the boys were being raised, I wonder how I'd redo it, but we never discussed, I've brought it up before. We've never, we never discussed race and we never, um, like we never identified somebody by their race, meaning it wouldn't be, uh, you know, I don't know. Who is that?
black kid you were sitting next to. It would be who is the kid in the purple underarmor shirt you were sitting next to.
And I really think it was fourth or fifth grade. And that was, I mean, for the longest time, and I never heard, you know, it was never black. There was never white. There was none of that, which I thought was beautiful because they never said, you know, when they were talking about their friends and I'm like, well, who is that now, you know, I never heard. Well, you know, yeah, he's, uh,
You know, the, the tall black kid that, that I hang out with, he never, they never said that, but then what I noticed too, and what I had to educate them on, which was really eye opening, um, once they did get exposed to it, which was later on in elementary school, um, and, and which was honestly jabbing, it was beautiful because, you know, to look through a kid's eyes is just beautiful because they don't see the skin color.
Javin Foreman (47:15.31)
Thank you.
Javin Foreman (47:25.699)
Nope.
Robert (47:26.133)
All they see, honestly, all they saw was for the most part, it was how good of an athlete or, you know, that person was, or how much they sucked. That's, that is really kind of how they graded kids, you know? And, um, but it was, it was, it was beautiful to see, but then what we did was expose them to
Javin Foreman (47:40.343)
Yeah.
Robert (47:55.065)
what different races might be faced with and what they are faced with because of their, because of their skin color. And man, you talk about eye opening and just, you know, and, and I had some friends, or, you know, some African-American friends that shared with them stories. And, and they were just like dumbfounded, you know, dumbfounded that.
Javin Foreman (48:03.502)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Javin Foreman (48:17.671)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (48:25.161)
And I was not making them feel bad by any means. I wasn't making them feel bad about their skin color, but letting them know the challenges and the ignorance that society had, and sometimes still has. It's still, you tell me, I don't think it's as big as it was, or as widespread as it was, but it's still very clear out there. I mean, it definitely is.
Javin Foreman (48:32.212)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (48:54.593)
Um, but letting them know the different challenges people face. And, uh, I just, I wonder at times how I would go back and do that differently. Um, but man, for that look, for that moment, when they saw everybody the same and I think they still do, but we're skin and they still don't, they still don't. I mean, they, they both have a, uh, especially my oldest, very diverse group of friends, it's never, you know, skin color is never brought up, which is
Javin Foreman (48:58.378)
Yeah.
Javin Foreman (49:03.198)
Yeah. I'm not thinking. Yeah.
Javin Foreman (49:19.459)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (49:24.593)
Beautiful, still.
Javin Foreman (49:27.41)
Yeah. And I think we're in a pretty good position where our children can go to some schools where they're exposed to a variety. That's what I'd always tell my children even now. Even when I was in high school, I had friends of all types. Some people would consider nerds and some people I can remember.
you know, people associated me because I was an athlete that I would only be friends with the basketball players and that sort of thing. But, you know, you find that people are people, man. They're funny guys that are nerds, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, they're funny guys that are fat guys, whatever it might be, man. You just take somebody, how they come, and you enjoy what it is. I have friends who can draw really well because I like to draw. And so I'd be amazed by their talents. And so, you know, but that leads me to the point. I think it's about exposure, you know, us being exposed to each other. I think, you know, us being in this,
Robert (50:13.513)
Mm-hmm.
Javin Foreman (50:16.62)
in a society where oftentimes we're so, we worship separately in too many cases, you know what I'm saying? We live in communities that are separate, but I think what we find so often is, man, when we get the chance to be around each other, it's like, man, we really like each other, across the board. You admire some things. I think as black people, one of our things, we think that white people don't have any problems. It's just not true. You know?
Robert (50:34.106)
Yeah.
Robert (50:42.942)
Yeah, no, it's not. Yeah, we do.
Javin Foreman (50:48.238)
I think it's just being able to have open and honest conversations and being able to learn from each other, man. And you'll find like, yo, it's a lot of cool people that are out here. But I think we have to come together to solve some of these societal issues that are affecting everyone. You know, one of the things I think, you know, black people look at, for example, was when there was a heroin epidemic, right? You know, on the west side of Chicago in particular, I can remember those open air markets and sort of thing.
You know, there wasn't a call from government for any type of action. There weren't any lawsuits or anything like that. But when it became an opioid addiction and it started affecting people outside of black communities, there's all this action around it. So as black people, we've seen those types of things happen. And that's what's made us really distrustful of society and government, you know, and looking at those types of things. But I think there's certain things that we know kind of innately that we've seen from redlining, man.
Drugs being pushed in our community, a whole Oliver North thing, you know. So imagine you're dealing with...
Robert (51:50.941)
Totally, totally, totally agree. I could go down that, talk to you about that for hours and the crack cocaine epidemic.
Javin Foreman (51:59.978)
Yes, yes, you know.
And I think it's a power thing. Oftentimes it's like somebody trying to use their power to take advantage of other people who are weak, who couldn't do anything. But shame on us in lots of cases. It's almost like what I'm talking about now. As a society, we're just letting this stuff happen to us now. We see the pathway our children are going down now and it's all of our children are affected now. So maybe we'll take some time to address some of these societal issues in a major way.
Robert (52:03.805)
I mean...
Robert (52:32.886)
You know, you said people that are weak. Let me tell you something. Uh, I'm not, I didn't bring you on here to, for this to be a race discussion.
Javin Foreman (52:34.484)
Thank you.
Robert (52:44.665)
Is there a stronger class of people than the black community? I mean, honestly, I mean, you think about, you think about everything that, you know, the black community has gone through over the years. Um, and you know, honestly, I think back to the clip you sent me and it opened my eyes up even more and I went and dug into it. Okay. Black community couldn't have banks. They couldn't deposit.
Javin Foreman (52:51.711)
Oh yeah.
Javin Foreman (52:55.15)
Sure.
Robert (53:14.093)
money at that white bank. So what they do, they created their own. They could, didn't have hotels. What'd they do? They created their own. They didn't have school systems. They couldn't, they couldn't go to school systems. So the, the same school system, what they do, they created their own. How did the education turn out a lot better than the whites. It be you and once who have, and that's just in, if you want to say recent times, um, in less than a hundred years, um,
Javin Foreman (53:30.99)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (53:42.841)
you know, and go back even further. But yeah, I mean, that's, it's probably one of the strongest, most resilient group of people I've ever seen.
Javin Foreman (53:52.107)
No question.
Yep, no, no question. I agree. You know, I agree 100%. And that's how I think our conversation started, was talking about, you know, ML Martin Luther King said it, you know, he was like integration. He's like, did I send my people into a burning building, you know, by pushing for integration, you know? So I think what we saw when integration took place, not done properly, it weakened our economic base. It weakened our political base, you know? And so, you know, you look at it and you think about these things,
intended consequences, but our education has gone down. I think marriage rates, everything, I think a lot of that plays into integration. I'm not saying that the strategy would be long-term to stay separate, but.
You know, we've given up our economic advancement, no longer own the businesses in our community. You see where Asians, you know, come in and open up, whether it's the nail shop or it's the Chinese food shop, you know, where the Arabs open up the donut shops and, you know, gas stations, which is awesome. That's what every.
Robert (54:54.989)
or the liquor stores, whatever it may be.
Javin Foreman (54:57.45)
Yep, liquor stores. And so, you know, you just see this and it just makes you wonder, man, you know, kind of what happened. But then when you also look and see where a lot of black people, it shows, something came out the other day where loans were, loans are denied, you know, way too often, you know, kind of systematically. So some of that stuff I do believe systematically is still in play. And I think it's to avoid competition more than anything.
Robert (55:22.301)
Hmm, interesting. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And
Yeah, that does make sense. I'm going to kind of jump and be respectful of your time. Have you heard, do you know the, uh, the artists Dax? Do you know what I'm talking about? Kind of a rapper he's got, you got to listen to it. You might not like it, but he's got a song out called to be a man. He's got different remixes, dare, uh, Darius Rucker is on one of them. Different people have gone in and done remixes with it, but listen to it. And his name's Dax. And I think he is from Canada.
Javin Foreman (55:37.162)
I don't...
Javin Foreman (55:41.89)
Okay, I'm gonna check it out.
Javin Foreman (55:45.749)
Okay.
Javin Foreman (55:53.611)
Okay.
Javin Foreman (55:58.587)
Okay.
Robert (55:58.701)
would love to have him on, but his song to be a man would love to hear your thoughts on that, but, um, definitely positive. I meant to tell you about, about him off air and just get your thoughts. But, uh, you know, Javin I appreciate you coming on. Um, you have, if you look back at your history,
Javin Foreman (56:03.436)
Okay.
Javin Foreman (56:09.975)
Yeah, yeah.
Robert (56:21.541)
You've been given back since you've been able to work. I mean, you have truly been trying to either help others and it's all helping others, whether it's helping, helping those that are, uh, gone down the wrong road or, um, you know, trying to help people that through unfortunate circumstances, whatever it may be. And, you know, I think that is.
Javin Foreman (56:26.29)
for us.
Robert (56:50.473)
I think you're such a model of what we as men need to do. And one, you're a wonderful dad. I mean, I see it. I've seen it. But you also give a lot of your time to do that. And we've talked about this and talked about it with others as well. And I think it's up to dads. We're in a very challenging stage right now.
I think we're at an inflection point that, I don't wanna say there's no turning back, but man, we're getting close. Where we as men have to step up, we have to assume responsibility, not just for our own children, but for others as well, others that might be in unfortunate circumstances. And I just wanna say, I appreciate you. I appreciate all you're doing. I know it's not easy.
Javin Foreman (57:29.493)
serious.
Javin Foreman (57:44.386)
percent.
Robert (57:50.181)
to devote, to be the dad that you are and then devote so much time to others and to serve as such a great role model and mentor. But thank you. I mean, definitely thank you.
Javin Foreman (58:02.734)
Yep, no, I appreciate it man. Just trying to pass the blessings on, you know, and I agree 100% as men in particular If we can step up and you know and long lend our talents to society And I think the beautiful thing about his men when we come together the brotherhood of men is such a powerful thing You know, I think we've you know been duped to get away from it, you know guys don't even sit together and watch football anymore Everybody's watching their own living room You know, there's power in me and just being together and coming together
Robert (58:28.346)
True.
Javin Foreman (58:32.989)
to solve some of these societal issues. So I really, really hope that we take our place soon.
Robert (58:39.397)
Well, I appreciate it. Anything else you want to cover? I think we kind of jumped around.
Javin Foreman (58:41.99)
No, I think it's great. Yep, no, I enjoyed this. I enjoyed the conversation.
Robert (58:45.541)
Man, I appreciate it. And you were so well received last time. And I don't want you to go anywhere. I want you to come back on again. But I do appreciate you coming on. All right. Hey everybody. Thank you all again for listening to Daddy Dad's podcast. You can find us on Spotify or Apple podcasts, as well as on YouTube and Instagram.
Javin Foreman (58:58.045)
Absolutely.
Robert (59:10.233)
Don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button so you don't miss any episodes and we will see you all next time.