What is it like growing up as a child of divorce? As a divorced parent, how can you be a better parent to your children? These are just a few of the questions answered by Bella Duncan as she gives us an inside look into her life. Bella, as the founder of www.akidwithtwohomes.com and @akidwithtwohomes on instagram, shares her experience growing up as a child of divorce and the challenges she faced. She discusses the high conflict situation between her parents and the anxiety it caused her. Bella explains how she reached a breaking point and initiated a change in her family's dynamic. She highlights the importance of effective communication and the impact it had on her family's relationships. Bella also emphasizes the need for parents to put their children first and show respect for their co-parent. She encourages children of divorce to embrace their story and not feel ashamed.
Just a few of the topics discussed.
Bella is such a beautiful soul and she has made it her mission to be an advocate for children of divorce. Thank you for coming on the podcast Bella!
What is it like growing up as a child of divorce? As a divorced parent, how can you be a better parent to your children? These are just a few of the questions answered by Bella Duncan as she gives us an inside look into her life. Bella, as the founder of www.akidwithtwohomes.com and @akidwithtwohomes on instagram, shares her experience growing up as a child of divorce and the challenges she faced. She discusses the high conflict situation between her parents and the anxiety it caused her. Bella explains how she reached a breaking point and initiated a change in her family's dynamic. She highlights the importance of effective communication and the impact it had on her family's relationships. Bella also emphasizes the need for parents to put their children first and show respect for their co-parent. She encourages children of divorce to embrace their story and not feel ashamed.
Just a few of the topics discussed.
Bella is such a beautiful soul and she has made it her mission to be an advocate for children of divorce. Thank you for coming on the podcast Bella!
Robert (00:01.142)
Hey everyone and welcome back to the dad to dad's podcast. And I'm excited for today's guest. I know a lot of listeners out there are divorced and share custody of their children. And there's probably sometimes when you wonder, how your children's processing everything and processing growing up in two homes. And I thought that why don't we bring in an expert, someone who has
not only live that life, but also writes about it and helps to educate others. So as the voice or one of the voices for kids growing up in divorce homes, I want to welcome Bella Duncan. Bella, welcome.
Bella Duncan (00:44.824)
Thank you so much for having me Robert, I'm really happy to be here.
Robert (00:48.358)
And you're joining us. You all will be able to tell, uh, you're joining us from Australia.
Bella Duncan (00:54.316)
all the way from Sydney, Australia, where it's summer, but it's raining outside. And it's the morning here. So, yep, 10 a.m. for me.
Robert (01:03.142)
Yeah, I know that was a little bit challenging with the time getting that worked out, but I appreciate you being so flexible with everything and, and good morning to you. Yeah, there you go. So I found you through Instagram, a kid with two homes. I love your site. I highly recommend that to anybody that's listening out there, but can you give us some background? You know, tell us about Bella. Tell us why are you not why you're a kid with two homes, but just
Bella Duncan (01:10.884)
us. Yep and good night to you Robert.
Bella Duncan (01:19.472)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (01:32.79)
you know, when your parents divorced, how old were you and what inspired you to come up with the site as well?
Bella Duncan (01:40.592)
For sure. So I think we should start at the start. So my parents got divorced when I was three years old. I have a younger brother and he was one at the time. My brother and I are extremely close. He's my best mate. So our parents got divorced when I was three years old. And then for the next quite a few years, up until I was 18 years old, it was a pretty high conflict situation. So a lot of what you see,
with kids of divorce being the messenger, a lot of conflict between my parents. In the meantime, my dad got remarried when I was 10 years old. And then from there, it was just this constant cycle of quite a bit of anxiety as a kid of divorce, you know, pick up drop-offs. Our schedule was pretty set in stone. So I would go to dad's with my brother on a Thursday afternoon after school.
and then we come back to mom's on a sad day at four o'clock. And really we stuck to that schedule pretty precisely. And even there was some anxiety around that, if we're late to pick up, drop off, et cetera. So there was conflict in the little areas, there was conflict in the big areas, obviously between mom and dad, but I very much as the eldest kid felt in the middle. And then when I turned 18, it was actually just before I turned 18, it was my school, high school.
graduation. And you know, a constant thing that I would have was who can I invite? Who should I invite? They can't sit next to each other? How am I going to organize these tickets? I can only get two. And it all got a bit much as it always had, but I just wasn't able to communicate that very effectively to my parents. So I had somewhat of a breakdown, really. I went to my mom and I said, Mom, I can't do this anymore. And then I sat my dad down separately. And I said, I can't do this anymore.
I'm turning 18, I'm leaving high school. I feel as though my life is consumed with being in the middle and being in this conflict. And so with effective communication and some skills that I've built up along the way, my parents really listened to me and they thought, you know what, we can't do this anymore either. And so making a long story short, we did a complete 180. My parents said, okay, that's enough. We need to start communicating.
Bella Duncan (04:06.764)
and this conflict that we have needs to be fixed. My mom actually had my dad and his wife over to her house and we all had an afternoon tea together. And I remember my brother and I ran upstairs to pack up something, because we ended up going with dad after. We just stopped at the top of the stairs and we looked at each other and we said, what the hell, what's going on? And I remember sitting there thinking, this is possible.
this is only the start, but this is possible. And it was awkward and it was crazy. And we were all kind of like, is this really happening? But my parents came to the table quite literally and they did a 180 and kind of pushed things to the side and stopped putting myself and my brother in the middle. It then snowballed into a few more events. I ended up having my 21st birthday with both my families there. That was a massive deal. And then it even got to the point.
where we ended up putting in a basketball team together. So my mom, my dad, my brother, my stepmom, my mom's partner and my partner were all in a basketball team together. And we played every Sunday night for three seasons. And I can't tell you, when I told my friends, guys, my mom and dad are playing basketball with us. They've seen me go through 18 years of...
Robert (05:20.792)
Wow. Okay.
Bella Duncan (05:34.824)
Absolutely not that and so they're like there's no way your parents have been playing in a basketball team together there's no way um but we did and it was phenomenal and just very recently I had my own wedding and both my parents were there and that was a moment in time that I've always dreaded because I always thought just like my birthday parties just like everything else I would have to have two weddings um but that's where we're at today.
And I'm very grateful, but during that process, when I was 20 years old, so this is about two years after that 180 that we did as a family, I thought, you know what? I needed something growing up. And there was never anything out there for the kid from the kid. Sure, there's your school counselor and you've got beautiful family and support around you, had great friends, but there was never anything out there from my perspective.
And I wanted to fill that gap. So I created a kid with two homes.
Robert (06:37.358)
Well, I'm so happy you did. And thank you for sharing. I let my sons read or go on your site and look. And then we were listening to you. You've been on a few podcasts. And we were listening to you. And they're like, yeah, she's right. Yeah, yeah, she's right. She's right. It's a little bit different with boys. They're not always forthcoming.
Bella Duncan (06:53.392)
Thank you.
Bella Duncan (06:58.692)
Thank you.
Robert (07:03.522)
But I hate that you were in that predicament, but I love that you stood up and talked to both of your parents. With the high conflict situation, unfortunately that can happen. Unfortunately, kids do get put in the middle and it's not healthy. I mean, it's definitely not healthy. I wanna go into that in a little bit, but a question that I am dying to ask you is,
Bella Duncan (07:27.78)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (07:31.946)
Were many of your friends parents divorced? And did you, if not, if they were together or the ones that had both parents living in the same house that were still married, did you feel different? Like, did you, and there's a reason why I'm asking that and I'll share that later, but did you feel different being a kid from two homes that being a coming from divorce family?
Bella Duncan (07:57.04)
Great question. So given my parents split when I was three years old, I found that was quite early on in life in comparison to the people around me. So when I started kindergarten, I remember there was one other girl who had her parents divorced. And I could tell from the first day of kindergarten because both her parents were there, but they weren't together like every other person's parents.
And I remember we weren't actually very close friends, but we always had this mutual understanding that we're going through the same thing. That I know she visited her dad on specific days, I visited my dad on the specific days. Because little things like my bag would be packed to billiard on a Thursday because they'd have to take all my stuff from moms to dads. And she was the same. So I really felt quite, I felt different. And I felt as though, you know what? I...
I can only empathize with her on this part of my life. But as I grew older, a few friends would come up to me and they go, oh, your parents are divorced, aren't they? I go, yeah, they say, well, my parents are fighting a lot and I heard the word divorced and I think they're not gonna be together for much longer. And then that number of people increased as I moved through high school. More friends would come up to me and say, I think my parents are getting divorced. And then unfortunately that number grew.
And I found that I was looking around and not just seeing one other girl in my class, I was seeing quite a few. And I was seeing them struggle through the things that I struggled through, but at different stages. And of course, divorce is very age dependent as well as a kid. Given I was three, I remember, you know, people saying, oh, you won't remember much. It's better this way. But then I'd say some friends go through it at 14, 15 when they're just trying to figure out their place in the world. So definitely.
that number of people increased. But I don't know if that feeling of being different really ever changed. And I couldn't pinpoint that until very recently when I really started to get into this blog and really started to get into this page. I found that one of the biggest things that pushed me down as a kid of divorce was being labeled a kid from a broken home. And this idea that my home was broken
Bella Duncan (10:19.84)
or I come from a broken family, made me feel very different and broken myself. And I felt as though I was being labeled something for a choice I didn't make. And I'm quite passionate about this because I think, you know, when you go meet a new friend or you go meet a new family or you're even being introduced to people, I've been introduced, oh, this is Bella. Oh yeah, I think her mom's coming, but she's from a broken home.
Robert (10:32.586)
Right.
Bella Duncan (10:48.612)
So I'm not sure if her dad's coming. And that just makes me sit there and feel this small because the decision I didn't make and my family's not broken, they're divorced, sure, they're separated. It doesn't make me broken. And so that feeling of different changed from, I just don't have everything that they have. I don't have two parents at home to, oh, I'm actually broken because of a choice I didn't make. And I think
That very much motivated me with this blog and it very much motivated me to remind kids of divorce that they are not broken and even families are not broken. No matter what, my mom and dad will always be my mom and dad and no matter what, we will always be a family of some sort. That's just the fact of the matter and I'm not broken just because my parents are divorced. So that feeling very much changed from being different to feeling broken and then working through that.
Robert (11:48.574)
Wow, thank you for sharing that. I've never thought about that. I never have, but that makes complete sense. I mean, it definitely does. And your parents loved you a lot, both of them, both sets. So you had that. And so there's nothing broken about that, correct? And you know, it's interesting. And I'll share this. When my ex and I were separated and the boys found out, yes, we were getting a divorce. I was walking them to school.
And we had this one tree, I know it's, it might be silly, but this one tree where it's about a block and a half away from the school and we called it the hug tree because the boys at that time were getting, um, to the age where they were cool. You know, they wanted to be cool. They didn't want to be hugged goodbye in front of their friends. And so that was always the tree that just, it just so happened that we would always, I'd always say, okay, I'm gonna give you all a hug here.
Bella Duncan (12:40.424)
Yeah.
Robert (12:47.25)
You know, and it was by this one tree, this deformed looking tree. I mean, it's just a pitiful tree and, but we called it the hug tree and, um, we, we still do this. We walked by there and one, one day I could tell they were down. And so I said, well, what's, what's going on? You know, and I always tried to make our walks, you know, it's starting their day. I always try to make their walks, something exciting and fun and getting geared up for school.
Bella Duncan (12:47.46)
Hahaha
Bella Duncan (12:54.634)
haha
Yeah, that's...
Bella Duncan (13:11.748)
Yeah.
Robert (13:16.15)
And they both were afraid of how their peers, how the other students would look at them. And, you know, they were worried because they were the only ones and they were in elementary school. They were fairly young and they were worried how their friends would look at them because a lot of their, well, I don't know if they had any friends at the time who came from divorced homes whose parents were divorced. And so we talked about it.
Bella Duncan (13:42.581)
and
Robert (13:44.734)
You know, you keep your head up and nobody's going to say anything. No, I promise you, nobody will say anything. You keep your head up. I know you're worried. Uh, I know you don't want them to talk about, but you know what? Most kids, they're not going to talk about that stuff and they probably don't even know and just, you know, hold your head high, stick your chest out. And have a good day at school. And I love you. If you need me, I'm here. Have your teacher call me.
Bella Duncan (13:49.253)
Mm.
Bella Duncan (13:59.545)
Hmm.
Bella Duncan (14:04.933)
Mm.
Bella Duncan (14:11.44)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (14:12.758)
You know, and so that's why I've always wondered that about, um, how that feels. I mean, I grew up, my dad died when I was 10 and I was the only one that it was, it was sudden. And I was the only one of course, in my class who didn't have their dad, you know, whose dad had passed away. Um, there were a couple who came from divorced homes. Um,
Bella Duncan (14:23.893)
I'm sorry.
Bella Duncan (14:31.312)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (14:39.138)
But there were a lot of things that I missed. I mean, not having my dad. But it's interesting, one thing that you said about your friends coming to you as their parents ended up getting divorced. I have seen that with my sons, where different kids, they'll tell me that dad such as such came to me today and told me his parents are fighting a lot. And they're really, same thing.
Bella Duncan (14:51.821)
Yeah.
Robert (15:08.666)
same exact thing you said, you know, that they're mentioning the divorce word or they heard their dad or their mom threatening divorce. And, um, you know, so that's, um, they'll come to them and. You know, I asked them like, what, what did you, what did you do? So I just listened to them and told them, I'm here, I'm here for you. And, you know, that's something we've tried to do is, you know, unfortunately we've gone through divorce. Um, and.
Bella Duncan (15:13.305)
Mm.
Yes.
Robert (15:38.69)
But what we've learned and what we're trying to do also is be there for others. You know, I mean, I think that's part of life, right? You go through the hard times and is to help others out and help them through those hard times.
Bella Duncan (15:45.785)
it.
Bella Duncan (15:50.136)
That's exactly right. And I think that I'm a thing as a kid of divorce and one of the principal things that I put out there is that so little of other people's actions is in your control. In fact, nothing about other people's behaviour or actions is in your control. And so the fact that your sons were mature enough to say, I just sat there and listened, that's all they can really do. And I find it's hard to communicate with kids who
just don't know what's going on and they might have been in a high conflict situation with their parents still together. I noticed that and I remember being in, I think it was like year four, year five, where I had a friend come up to me and she said, you're so lucky. And I said, what? Why? She said, because your parents are divorced. And I thought, no, I'm not. I wish my parents were together. You're so lucky.
What do you mean? And she said, no, you're luckier because all day, every day, I hear my parents fight and I just wish that they weren't together. And that for me was so confronting because I didn't know that. I didn't understand that. And so I just listened to her and that's all I could do.
Robert (17:08.894)
You know what? I think that's something that gets lost a lot. Um, you felt love throughout now granted, uh, or unfortunately, it didn't work out with your parents with them be staying together. But I think, you know, these people that just my personal opinion, these people that stay in a marriage for their kid till their kids are out of the home and there's constant fighting and fighting and bickering and
You know, those kids, I think the question needs to be asked those kids that don't see love between their parents. All they see is anger and animosity and stonewalling. Um, is that really healthy versus. You know, maybe being in two separate homes and you know, where, where each parent can parent the way they want to and provide love and maybe more quality time.
Bella Duncan (18:02.192)
Hmm.
Robert (18:04.598)
to their child and maybe they fall in love and then the kids get to see that, you know, get to see, hey, okay, this is what love is. Um, you know,
Bella Duncan (18:12.76)
Yeah. And it's a really interesting and difficult question. I think that as a kid of divorce, I'm very much still struggling with the answer to that because I grew up wishing that my parents were together. And I grew up wishing that they just worked it out as a kid. You just, you just can't quite understand how that is a better option than trying to work it out. And as a three year old, I never would have known that.
Robert (18:16.779)
Yeah.
Bella Duncan (18:41.192)
intense conflict while they're at home and I always put it down to the fact that they were divorced was the reason that they were fighting, not because they weren't compatible together. And I think, you know, having experienced at such a young age, I wasn't given that clarity. But now, not only after listening to a lot of other people, but also with a psychology degree, I understand the logistics of it and I understand pragmatically, you know, somewhat of an answer to that question.
But it's interesting, and I think this is a perspective that I like to offer. As a kid of divorce still, it's still not clear in my head. And, you know, no matter what, you're always going to understand things and to listen to your parents and to want them to be happy. But when you do say, you know, that family sitting at dinner, you know, all pretty perfect, which they're probably not, but that's what the kid's saying. It's hard to think.
Robert (19:38.407)
Yeah.
Bella Duncan (19:40.756)
man, I just wish we had that. And I think as a kid who never experienced that because I was so young, I've always had that perspective. But if kids are at an age where all they've seen is that conflict and they understand that this was a good choice for their parents to make, maybe it's different. But that's why I think so many different kids perspectives is important and not just mine because we all have such different experiences.
Robert (20:08.97)
Yeah, that's true. So you brought up something I was talking to somebody about a month ago. And she was telling me that even when she was, her parents got divorced, I think I'm probably wrong, but I think it was late elementary or early middle school and a lot of fighting, a lot of arguing. And she knew that they were, or she felt they weren't compatible. I mean, that's pretty much all she remembers from
Bella Duncan (20:27.809)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (20:38.314)
was them fighting occasionally a few good times, but the rest was fighting or just like she said, um, Oh, what did she call it? Uh, like argument of roommates is what she felt it was like, which was horrible. But she said she still, even when they got divorced, she still, even through college had these hopes and dreams that they would one day get back together. And that's
Bella Duncan (20:38.418)
Mm.
Robert (21:06.942)
Is that similar to you?
Bella Duncan (21:08.904)
Yeah, of course. And even after, you know, everything you've been through and everything you've seen in the high conflict and you just look at them and you think there's no way you got married. It's just like, no way that this ever worked. And you know, you hear stories about, yeah, no, at the start it was great and this and that and you just think soon they go on, still can't say it. But, you know, we are all raised on a society of the picture perfect family, the family of four with the white picket fence. And I think that, you know, it's
Robert (21:20.311)
Ha ha ha.
Yeah.
Robert (21:34.55)
Yeah.
Bella Duncan (21:38.824)
it's been really difficult and challenging to rewire your brain and say, you know what, as a kid I have no control over this. All I have control over is my own actions and what I wanna build my life to be. And so I need to start focusing on that rather than wishing on every shooting star that my parents get back together. Because maybe in whatever you believe in, whether it's God, whether it's the universe, maybe it's just not meant to be. And coming to that maturity and coming to that realization.
is insanely hard. And if you always go back to your childlike self, of course, I'm sitting there thinking, I wish I had both my parents at every meal, at every time I came home, or that dad was late and mom yelled at him because he wasn't ready for dinner. Of course I wish I had that, but with age and maturity and with a lot of support around you, you realize that all of that.
Robert (22:23.607)
Yeah.
Bella Duncan (22:34.676)
isn't in your control and it's time to start focusing on you and your life and what you want to achieve.
Robert (22:43.852)
I can't imagine it. And I try to be cognizant of it with the boys.
Robert (22:55.698)
even with sharing of schoolwork or different projects or different things, they'll say, oh dad, I thought I told you that. And when I know, now they didn't tell me, they told their mom, which is fine. But I can't imagine being in that position and okay, I told mom this, do I need to tell, and I need to tell dad this, I need to make sure I'm sharing this, which I try to stress to them. You know, it doesn't, you don't have to, you know, just take that pressure away. But did you feel that pressure a lot of times, like just the...
Bella Duncan (22:59.394)
Mm.
Robert (23:25.602)
I told mom about this, I need to tell dad, or I need to share this with both parents instead of sitting around at the dinner table at night of, you know, sharing your artwork or telling what you did in school or things like that or, or how, how was that?
Bella Duncan (23:39.564)
My god. Oh, just nail on the head of a very unique experience that kids with divorce have. I have countless examples, but I think I've got two that are good ones. Every Thursday at primary school, which is I think, elementary school for you guys, we have to get a newsletter. And I will always be the kid that has to get two newsletters because it's not like mom would just hand it to dad and say, this is what's happening at school.
I'd have to get two because I'd be the one communicating both messages. And you know, that's a paper form. That was an easy thing. But I remember there was a movie that came out and both mom and dad wanted to see it with us. And I knew they both wanted to see it with us but I just wasn't in a position to break it to them that mom wanted to see it with us dad and dad, mom wanted to see, you know, vice versa. And I think I was like seven at the time. And I remember mom took us to the movie.
Robert (24:06.668)
Right.
Bella Duncan (24:35.172)
probably knowing that dad wanted to take us to a movie too, but she got in first. So she took us to the movie. We had a great time. We loved it. And then we went away with dad the next week because of school holidays. And dad goes, how about we go watch that movie? And my brother was too young to be like, oh, we've already watched it. So I just said, oh, he just followed my lead. And I said, yeah, let's go watch a movie. Let's do it. And mind you, I was a kid. I'm so happy to see the movie twice, but I didn't have the heart to tell him we'd already seen it. Mom beat you to it.
this is a situation. Anyways, after the movie, my moral just, I couldn't keep it in. So I had to tell dad that we had already seen it with mom, but I was really happy to see it again with you dad and trying to, you know, bounce the boat, which wasn't my responsibility. But dad goes, why wouldn't you just tell me? If you've already seen the movie, that's fine. But don't like, I got in trouble for lying.
Robert (25:22.317)
No.
Robert (25:25.931)
Yeah.
Bella Duncan (25:31.924)
Not for seeing the movie first, which I was so worried about. And it was, it was incredible. My dad's reaction to Belle. That's not your responsibility to, you know, if mom beats me to it first, if me and mom want to have this little competition of who can be the better parent. That's not your responsibility. And it's not your responsibility to try and hide that from us when we're being, you know, immature in that way, in a sense. But I did get in trouble for lying which I now appreciate because I.
I know that's not to lie, but you know, it's incredible thing, what goes through the kids' heads, where they try to minimise this potential conflict and there's so much anxiety around, kids realise what the predecessor to an argument is. So any inkling of that predecessor, they want to eliminate. And it doesn't become like you're an exterminator, it becomes understanding problems.
taking that responsibility on and, you know, communicating that message twice, even when your parents say, you know what? It's not your responsibility. But it does help when your dad or your mom say, hey, mate, you didn't tell me that, but thanks for letting me know. But hey, just remember, it's not your responsibility to communicate everything twice. It's just not. That.
is extremely comforting to a kid of divorce, to know that expectation isn't there and they just need to live their lives. And communication will come where it's needed.
Robert (27:01.462)
That is so great.
Robert (27:06.398)
That is so great.
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Um, cause I was, I was going to ask you that. So as a tip for parents, what can they do? Cause I mean, I see that with my own kids with times and we had the same thing with the movie, um, no, they did tell me right before, I think it was like a, the latest Top Gun movie a few years ago or a couple of years ago, or maybe a year ago, whenever it came out and, um,
Bella Duncan (27:28.283)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (27:35.078)
You know, I don't, I, it was interesting. They enjoyed it and they were like, dad, but we enjoyed it so much more the second time and that really kind of broke. I don't know if they did or not, or if they were saying that just to make me feel good, but you know, it kind of, you wonder like, why are you telling me that? Like you don't have to say that, you know, and, um, kids, I think at times, I think you said it right. I mean, they, they.
will do whatever it takes to prevent any sort of argument. And generally, the people pleasers, or parent pleasers, let's say. And they want to whatever they can do to minimize conflict. That's a great tip, what you said, for parents. That's wonderful, and I'm going to try to remember that. I want to be respectful of your time. But.
Bella Duncan (28:30.647)
Of course.
Robert (28:32.278)
Tell me this, what you've shared a lot, but what did your parents do great? Like when you're like, gosh, they did this so well. I'm so happy. And then where do you wish your parents had done a better job? I think I probably know some of those answers, but if you don't mind sharing it.
Bella Duncan (28:53.968)
I always like to start with the good. So because this is a dad's podcast, which I absolutely love, the divorce industry is saturated with moms, which is fantastic, but I've very much kept my eye out for dads. And that's why I'm so happy to be on this podcast. But so I'll focus on my dad for this one. My mom was great, but let's focus on dad for now. Dad literally did everything he could to be in our lives.
Robert (29:11.81)
Thank you.
Robert (29:16.738)
Great.
Bella Duncan (29:24.416)
you know, he went so far as coming to the bus stop on a day that wasn't his, just to see us get off the bus, give him a quick hug and get in the car with mom. And those are core memories. I will always remember it was in a high conflict situation where mom would be like, you're not allowed to come to the bus stop on my day. He'd just literally be there just to say hi to the kids and then go. And I, and I totally empathize that.
So many people have different work schedules, et cetera, but it just worked out that my dad was able to be at the bus stop when he could on mom's days. Because, you know, Thursday to Saturday wasn't a terribly long amount of time for us. We had so much to jam pack in our lives. Dad, you know, my dad was a sports scientist and sport was always a massive part of our lives. And I think that bus stop situation then translated into our training. So if mom couldn't take us to training.
Robert (29:53.996)
Yeah.
Bella Duncan (30:21.624)
Dad would organize to, I'm available. I can take the kids to training. If he didn't, couldn't take the kids to training because mom could, he'd still come to training and watch us train. And then afterwards we'd give him a quick, quick hug, quick kiss, and then we'd be in the car with mom. I'm talking like we'd have sometimes three minute interactions for dad to just sit there for an hour and a half to watch us train. And I always thought I'd looked over to my dad and I thought, my dad's always going to be here for me. My dad's right here.
when it doesn't suit him, he's there on his laptop doing work. But, you know, he made that extra effort and that's extreme. I always say, Dad, you're extreme mate. Like, what the hell? Even with my work schedule, I couldn't do that for my kids, but when I eventually have them, hopefully, but you know, those little things of my dad making that extra effort, stupid effort to just be in our lives and not make it my mom's problem, not say it's because your mother doesn't let me have more time with you.
It was just, I'm here because I want to see my kids and I'll just give them a quick hug. And that from my brother and I, I know right now my dad will be here in a split, click of a finger because of those little things that he did along the way. And don't get me wrong, there would be times where, he wouldn't be able to be there, he'd have to go away for work or whatever. But another example that he would do is, he worked for a football team, a soccer team.
Robert (31:20.664)
Right.
Robert (31:43.872)
Right.
Robert (31:50.561)
Mm-hmm.
Bella Duncan (31:50.828)
And he literally got it written into his contract that he couldn't travel in the team with the team on a Thursday and Friday because he had his kids. Like who does that? And now as an adult and as a, as a full blown, with a full blown career, who does that? That's, that's unbelievable. You know, he would take us to work with him instead of putting us, you know, with somebody, but he also allowed us to have our relationships with our grandparents.
Robert (32:08.584)
That's beautiful.
Bella Duncan (32:18.936)
when, you know, mom and dad couldn't look after us because they're all at work. We were so fortunate enough to have our grandparents around us, you know, and they know those people. So I think that's something, you know, that my dad did so well, put himself in our lives, not to the point where it would cause more conflict, but just to say, guys, I'm here. I love you. Have a good day. Yeah, that was, that was a big one.
Robert (32:46.687)
Well, that.
It's beautiful. That touched me. I was putting myself in his shoes because I remember going to my son's soccer practices and watching the practice. And then when they came off the field, you know, giving them a quick hug, you know, telling them they did great and proud of them, you know, quickly hearing about what their school was like.
Bella Duncan (33:06.052)
you
Robert (33:17.33)
you know, earlier in the day and tell them to have a great day tomorrow. And I'll see them in, you know, two, three days.
Robert (33:26.234)
Yeah, it's interesting. I never thought about I mean, I think about with your dad, I mean, there was probably
Robert (33:36.042)
you know, that was probably so warm for him. And what a loving person. I think that was so warm for him just to see you. You know, just to see you going out there, enjoying yourself and getting that quick hug. That's interesting how impactful it was. That's actually that's great to hear how impactful it was on you. And sounds like awesome, man. He really does. Sounds like a great father. Yeah.
Bella Duncan (33:57.613)
Yeah, yeah, he's the best and you know, he's made mistakes and he's taught me his mistakes, you know, it's not this perfect person that you know, he's tried to make out that he is invincible and will always be the best of the best. No, I think, you know, obviously age appropriate. My dad has been so transparent with me especially and
we've been able to build that relationship. I remember even little things like we went to a coffee, we went to get coffee. I think I got a hot chocolate cause I was like 12 maybe. And dad said, you know what, Belle? Like our relationship is gonna start changing now that you're getting older. You know, one day you're gonna move out and you're gonna get married, but you know what we'll still have? We can still meet up for coffee just like this. And I thought, dad, I'm never leaving you. There's no way. I couldn't possibly.
Robert (34:33.471)
Yeah.
Robert (34:49.167)
Hahaha
Bella Duncan (34:51.832)
But you know, now I'm at that age, I'm literally organizing to meet with my dad tomorrow for coffee. Because that's what we started back then. And your relationship will change and you'll get to a point where my brother now goes to quicker practice and dad doesn't go. Because he's 22 and that would be a bit different, you know, like, but he would still go to his match on a Saturday to go watch him play. And, you know, all these mates know my dad.
Robert (35:12.203)
Yeah.
Bella Duncan (35:20.812)
because dad's around. But I can also empathize with the fact that would have been incredibly hard for my dad. You know, seeing kids, getting them taken away, seeing kids for two seconds, and then just wishing that you had them one more time. Like I... How am I doing?
Robert (35:38.05)
That is rough. Yeah, that is rough. I will I will say that it is rough and it's you know, it's rough at the end of the time when they're with you and they go back to the mom. I mean, that's extremely and I know it's tough for moms to But that is that is very rough. It's it's gut wrenching. It definitely is. All right, go ahead. Yeah. So tell me this. What do you think? Where do
Bella Duncan (36:00.592)
I can't imagine, yeah.
Robert (36:08.286)
Where could he, where could he have done better? And the reason why I asked that is, uh, I had a guy, I had a guy on the show, um, Kenny's Joyner a while back and he had written the book, a book. And, um, he was telling a story about with his daughter that he had asked her to write down three things where he had done well, uh, that he had done well. And three things that there was three things he had done well and three things.
where he had really missed the mark. And he said, you know, that was life-changing. So I did that exercise with my kids, you know, and you better be ready for it if you do that. I highly recommend it for anybody listening. And you've got to put all defenses aside because this is their point of view. But, you know, it's really interesting to hear that. But I was curious, like,
Bella Duncan (36:49.552)
Mm.
Robert (37:06.806)
Where did you know, and you never do these things purposely. But where do you wish your dad had done things differently? Are your parents had done things differently? You talked about high conflict, but what else and putting you in the middle? What else?
Bella Duncan (37:17.52)
Hmm. Yeah, definitely being aware of what was putting me in the middle. Um, and, you know, anything from a simply getting me a phone in year four to be contactable was, you know, a logistic decision, I think, on behalf of dad to think, okay, well, this way I don't have to call mom and, you know,
asked to speak to you guys, you know, kind of cut that potential conflict out and get Bella phone instead. But just having that little phone, it wasn't even an iPhone, it was one of those little Nokia I didn't feel cool that I was, you know, eight years old with a phone. I felt like I had a phone so that I can properly speak to my dad. And that wasn't something that, you know, I feel as though
Robert (37:58.997)
Yeah.
Bella Duncan (38:18.18)
He intentionally did it all. My mom intentionally did when she ended up getting me, you know, ways to communicate when I was at the other parent's house. But just something as little as that really started that feeling of responsibility quite early. And I understand it now. I don't know if I would have not made the same choice, but really realising that maybe something that logistically might work for you might not.
necessarily be the best thing for your kids. And I think having it at the forefront of your mind to not put responsibility on the kids will help you better inform those types of decisions. I think another thing would be to not have fear of your co-parent. And that I think is particularly harder for dads.
than it is for mums. In our situation, my mum was quite upset and angry. And, you know, dad felt as though she had some control over what time we got with him and, you know, who we could see and what we could do. And I think a lot of the time dad would feel somewhat
in a way fearful and act out of fear in terms of what we would do and who we would see, etc. Rather than communicating properly with his co-parent, I emphasise that it was extremely difficult. It could have been very difficult in various situations. But I think having come out the other end and seeing the 180 that they've now done.
Robert (39:57.611)
Yeah.
Bella Duncan (40:12.004)
the communication that they were able to have so many years later, and I understand that time is important, there's always that part of me that thinks, why could this not have been done earlier? And why did it have to take me getting to that age and to that point for that to occur? So rather than living in fear and perhaps trying to limit conflict with your co-parent
Robert (40:26.463)
Yeah.
Bella Duncan (40:41.944)
Um, you know, in that type of way, take initiative and put your kids at the forefront and think, okay, I don't want to communicate with my co-parent because, you know, I want to get back with them or I want to be best friends with them. No way. No one's expecting that of you, but putting your kid at the front and thinking, okay, me respecting my co-parent as my co-parent and that alone is only going to help my kid. Um, and.
I think when it's broken down like that, it's much easier to quantify in your head rather than just live in fear that, you know, your time with your kids is limited. It can be taken away at any point because the reality of that, you know, if you break it down from the kid's perspective, could be done quicker and easier and without, you know, long term damage.
to your kids and that kind of relationship and them feeling in the middle.
Robert (41:48.33)
That makes so much sense. It makes a lot of sense. Let me ask you this too. You were talking about it earlier. Sort of the competing kids can tell when parents are competing. Can't they? I mean, yeah.
Bella Duncan (42:03.785)
Oh, God, yeah.
Bella Duncan (42:08.044)
And it's funny because they neither want to admit that they're competing. And definitely now, but even then, I understood why they would want to. You know, our time was limited. There was this idea of we don't want you to see, you know, the ugly side of us where we're in conflict and where we don't like our co-parent, etc. So they try to kind of push that to the side.
Robert (42:14.167)
Right.
Bella Duncan (42:35.704)
be like, hey, let's go to the movies or let's do this, which is great bonding anyways, parents should do that. But you can tell when it's just this idea of, I just wanna get back at my co-parent and I wanna be the better parent. I wanna be the cool parent. I wanna be this Matt. And there were definitely glimpses throughout my childhood where I saw that and I get it. But I think from the kid's perspective,
Both parents bring such different things to the table. And if they just focus and realize what those things they bring are and focus on them alone, then your kid will love you no matter what. And it's not a competition because there's no way a mom and dad can compete or a mom and mom and dad, whatever it might be. There's no way that they can compete. They're such different people and your kids see you so differently. So when you do compete, it's so bloody obvious.
Robert (43:24.775)
No.
Robert (43:36.43)
I think that's so powerful. Yeah, I think that's so powerful what you said. And it is tough, it is tough. Cause at times really early on, I would find myself, oh, she did this with the kids. They went this place, I wanna try to outdo it. And I'm like, no, I'm not. It's tough though, but you have those thoughts cause you wanna be.
Bella Duncan (43:36.54)
that you can just get in front of the world with it.
Robert (44:01.686)
I guess you're right. Kind of the cool paranoid. I want them to have the same excitement with me or more excitement, but oh my gosh, what a rat race that can become, you know? And I was, um, so on the side, I, uh, assist people who are either going through, going through, or have gone through divorce and I do it's a group setting. Um, and the numerous times after class, I'll have somebody
Bella Duncan (44:12.936)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (44:30.23)
come up to me and especially with Chris, this Christmas, you know, a month ago, um, talking to me about, Oh, I know my husband or I know my wife, they're going to get them this and that. And I've got to find something to outdo them. And it's like, stop, or they're going to go, you know, taking them to, uh, you know, wherever skiing. And so I need to do something that will outdo that. And it's like, no, just quality time. That's it. Just.
Bella Duncan (44:51.056)
Thank you.
Bella Duncan (44:58.392)
Already fun.
Robert (44:59.298)
quality time, because I guarantee you, your kids know they can see through this. They can see through the competition. And then my fear was, and is, you know, you get in that, that competition. Kids are also great at manipulating too, and of getting their way and using, leveraging one against the other.
Bella Duncan (45:21.36)
That's it.
Oh my gosh, my brother and I were stoked that we got double the Christmas presents. You know, that was great. You know, everyone used to say, oh, you're so lucky your parents are divorced, you get double the Christmas presents. And as quite an emotional person and somebody who, you know, kind of saw vast and material stuff, I thought, I'll have one Christmas. I don't need Christmas presents. I don't want any of that. But you know, my brother and I would laugh. We'd be like, oh, well, we get two sets of Christmas presents, I guess.
Robert (45:27.083)
Were you guilty?
Yeah.
Bella Duncan (45:54.596)
Um, but you know, I have seen it with kids and they, they go, well, I'll just go to mom's on this day so that I can go to this concert. And dad won't even know about it because they don't communicate. And you know, it's kind of a bit of a stuff you mom and dad, if you want to play this game as I get older and I get a bit angrier and I still don't understand because this communication hasn't been, you know, what I needed, they start to go. I'm just going to use this against you. And.
That's where it becomes really hard for a kid to dig out of that hole and think actually, no, my parents were just hurting or they just want to be relevant in my life and you know, it's hard to realize that without your parents being vulnerable and without your parents communicating that to you.
Robert (46:43.422)
Yeah, no, it's it that is it's such an easy trap to get caught up in as a parent. I mean, it's such an easy trap. But then again, it's. It's not healthy for the kids and I knew they could see through it. I figured they could. Um, of course they wouldn't answer me if I asked them that I never asked them, but, um, that is, that is such an easy trap. And I think that's more of.
Robert (47:12.326)
Maybe that can continue, but it's definitely right after divorce a lot of times. And I guess, you know, if you don't hurry up and stop it, it will continue. And, um, but no, thanks for sharing that. So I want to ask you this and again, be respectful of your time. And I appreciate it. We're about to run over. I hope you're okay. But so your dad got remarried. How old were you when your dad got remarried?
Bella Duncan (47:21.157)
So anyway.
Bella Duncan (47:30.968)
Yeah, okay.
Bella Duncan (47:39.896)
I was 10. So yeah, my brother was about, yeah, seven, eight, seven.
Robert (47:41.949)
Oh, yeah.
And so you would still go over there on Thursdays till Sunday, correct? Till Saturday. How, how was that?
Bella Duncan (47:48.62)
till Saturday, yep, Saturday afternoon.
Bella Duncan (47:54.296)
Yeah, I mean, it was interesting because, so when Mum and Dad split, Dad actually moved to a farm. And I'm talking not like, you know, a ranch in America kind of thing. It was a farm about 20 minutes from Mum's, further out from where we were closer to the city. And it was old horses stables.
Literally the home was old horse stables renovated. Yep. It was old horse stables renovated into a home, you know, that had bathroom, everything, and that's where we'd go from a Thursday to a Saturday from the age of three to 10 and this place was, it had a horse track and you know, my dad's really sporty, so we were sporty.
Robert (48:28.672)
Oh, his home was like a stable.
Robert (48:35.005)
Oh yeah.
Bella Duncan (48:50.636)
We created a soccer field out the front. We painted the house red, blue and yellow to match the football team that we went for. The world was our oyster there. We put on gum boots when it was raining and we jumped in the puddles. Dad built a basketball ring where the horses got their shoes changed. It was just our world. It just felt as though it was our world. We shared a room.
Robert (49:00.992)
Oh wow.
Bella Duncan (49:19.492)
for so many years and then dad got married and it was time to move houses. And that farm was a home to us. It was our second home. It was a place where we went through so much. It was a place where dad had to rebuild. It meant so much to us. And then all of a sudden we're moving into a beautiful home in a normal suburb.
in a normal street no soccer field at the front kind of thing. And so that was a really interesting process. I didn't find it as uprooting as maybe it would sound, you know, being going between two homes. And at the age of 10, it was kind of exciting that we're moving houses. I'd never moved houses before, other than going between my two homes. You know, that process of
living with my stepmom and her daughter was really interesting because, you know, there's two extra people in the house. But I was fortunate enough that it was, you know, seamless in a way where there wasn't high conflict between my stepmother and my stepsister and I or anything like that. And dad still really focused on us in a way that we were comfortable and we still figured out where we could put the soccer post at in the
backyard there and you know, we still went for runs, but it was just on the road now instead of a horse's track. And really trying to stabilize that move and that transition helped us. But I think being aware that it's not just something that you can just do and your kids will just follow and it'll be fine. You still got to be so attentive to it and you got to be on top of it and you got to talk your kids through it.
and really explain to them that, hey, just because I'm moving in, just because I've got to marry doesn't mean that you're no less important. Doesn't mean that I'm moving on with a new family and I'm gonna forget about you guys. I think that was the biggest thing for us. That was always my biggest fear, that whether it be mom or dad, if they moved on, that they'd have a new family and we'd be forgotten about. And I think that's one thing my dad did well was, you know, he really did.
Bella Duncan (51:43.748)
put us at the front and think about us and what we would be impacted by. Um, you can't cover all bases, of course, but you know, dad didn't stop coming to training, dad didn't stop coming to the bus stop and he didn't stop calling us, you know, when he was supposed to, et cetera. And that consistency gave us somewhat of a stability in an unstable situation of that, you know, moving. Um, but it's always going to be hard.
the kid, it's just those little things that you can focus on to make it easier for them.
Robert (52:18.762)
Well, he, um, he really loves being a dad. I mean, he really does. And he takes that role, that job so seriously. You can hear that, uh, through everything you say. And, you know, that's, that's interesting. Cause I wonder at times too, like with children whose parents are getting remarried, like how hard is that? You know, they wake up, you know, they go through the wedding and they wake up and all of a sudden there's this new person in the house.
that's there every day, you know, that maybe, you know, unless they were living there before, maybe, you know, was just kind of infrequently or kind of frequently there. But then all of a sudden it's a permanent thing. I was wondering how that is with kids and how do you minimize that? And that was a very good explanation. So thanks for sharing. Let me ask you this too. Um, with the home having kid with two homes,
it was there any part of you ever where you're like, gosh, I wish I just had one house where I can go back and take my kids to and say, that's the house I grew up in instead of, Hey, that's the house I grew up in. Then let me, you know, half my time. And then let me take you 20 minutes away. And here's the other house. Is that anything with you? Or is that just
You know, I've always wondered that.
Bella Duncan (53:41.24)
Yeah, I mean, look, I've really tried to tackle this head on and, you know, think about what it means to me, etc. But all my life, I haven't felt broken. I've felt somewhat different. But when people label me broken, I kind of want to say, well, I have two homes, and no home not either home is not better than the other. And I'm perfectly okay. And my parents love me. And that doesn't make me
Robert (54:06.142)
Yeah. Yeah, look at you, you know.
Bella Duncan (54:11.912)
And I don't want that idea of just because I have to say, oh, when somebody asks me where you live, I say, oh, I live in Kellyville with mom and this place with dad. I don't take offense on behalf of somebody else for that. I'm proud of the life I've lived and I'm totally okay with the fact that that's my story. I shouldn't be ashamed of something that a choice I didn't make.
It's my life. And I always thought about that idea of when I have kids, my Christmas day right now is going to six different places and that's not including my now husband's family. So I'm thinking, okay, so we're gonna go to grandma's, we're gonna go to pa's, we're gonna go to all these different places. And my kids from the start are gonna understand what our situation is.
Robert (54:55.927)
Oh my gosh.
Bella Duncan (55:09.024)
And I'm so fortunate now that it's not that high conflict situation where my parents won't be able to communicate who can take what on Christmas day, etc. But, you know, it is that idea of I have to explain this, but I'm not ashamed. And that's something I want to drill into so many kids are divorced and your son to walk into school thinking, jeez, I hope nobody talks about us. That wasn't your decision.
Robert (55:25.43)
Yeah, it's great.
Bella Duncan (55:36.424)
It's part of life. There are so many people out there that experience the exact same thing and it's not a reflection on you. It's not a reflection on your family. It's no one's business, what happened, who did what, et cetera. If you wanna share your story, that's fine, but you're not broken and that's your life and you shouldn't be ashamed to explain to people what your situation is if you feel comfortable with it.
Robert (55:36.631)
Right.
Robert (56:00.91)
cancel the word broken home. How about that? Everybody, everybody, you know, everyone. Yeah. Everyone's so quick to cancel things. Let's cancel that term. You know, let's, let's cancel broken. You know, one of the thing that I can't stand, um, is people will say, kids are so resilient. They're so resilient. And I think kids are, but I think
Bella Duncan (56:04.246)
Cancel it.
Bella Duncan (56:11.442)
Totally agree.
Robert (56:28.798)
A lot of times what happens is, or not a lot, but several times parents will think, ah, they're resilient, they'll just go along with it without really thinking what that impact might be or just the feeling that kid might have or the situation that you're putting, unconsciously putting them in. And that's one thing I've always had an issue with is the, you know, kids are resilient.
Oh, they're so resilient. Oh, they'll be fine. They'll bounce back though. You know, did you ever did you ever hear that growing up or anything like that? Or how does that word strike you? Yeah.
Bella Duncan (57:07.204)
So much, so much. I think majority of my friends and majority of my family would describe me as resilient, mature, responsible. And I see them as compliments and I'm happy, you know, I'm happy that people see me like that. But if I think about it, I'm thinking I'm resilient because of what we went through. I'm responsible because I had to take on a bit of responsibility as a kid when I probably shouldn't have. And I'm mature because I had to be, because I was...
exposed to so many things that you shouldn't really be exposed to until a later point in your life. And it's really interesting and I don't see it as a bad thing and you know there are parts of me that are grateful for my maturity and my responsibility etc because of what we went through. But being described as something as a way of minimizing the harm that it's doing and trying to justify certain actions.
Um, doesn't really sit well with me. I think, you know, you're mature, you're more responsible and you're more resilient enough to realize that that's not good for a child. Um, and you know, it really takes some guts when you're hurting. I understand. And I empathize with parents that divorce is extremely hard, but as an advocate for the kids, I unashamedly say the kids have to come first and, you know, excuses like that. Just.
just aren't good enough. You can do better and you're so much stronger than that. And you should be for your kids.
Robert (58:40.578)
Bella, you are such a positive source and just such a beautiful person. I mean, I hate that everything that you had to go through, but you know, I love what you've, uh, I love what you've become from this and that you didn't use it as a crutch, you didn't become a victim. You've used it to gain more power and to go out there and to help others. I mean, I absolutely love that. Hey, before we wrap this up last thing, any, uh, additional tips for dads out there that.
you know, might be sharing custody or how they can be a best dad to the, you know, to their children.
Bella Duncan (59:17.164)
Absolutely. Number one, being your kids lives because they need you so badly. Your daughters need you, your sons need you. You are often the one person that they look up to and they look at and think, you know, I need them in my life. The countless people I've spoken to, my own experience. Without our dads, it creates so many issues and
I empathize after speaking with my dad especially how hard it is to keep going at it when you feel like you're getting pushed so far away from your kids. But at the end of the day, sitting here right now, 24 years old, I understand what my dad did for me and I am so grateful for that. And I am definitely the person I am today because my dad was in my life and not just existing consciously in my life.
Um, and the final thing that I would say, and I say this in all of my podcasts and all of my blogs, as hard as it is, um, showing respect for your co-parent is showing respect for your kid. And I emphasize that it might not feel as though that is reciprocated, but it always starts with one person and it's a two way street. I understand, but the kids come first. And that's one of the biggest lessons I've learned as a kid of divorce.
Robert (01:00:44.242)
is beautiful. That is absolutely beautiful. And thank you. How can people find you? And tell me and is there anything that you want to promote? I mean, you're absolutely amazing. Is there anything that you want to promote as well? So tell us
Bella Duncan (01:00:50.744)
So I am.
Bella Duncan (01:00:57.784)
Thanks Robert. So you can find me at www.akidwithtwohomes.com That there has a lot of my blogs that I've written. They're quite short, easy to read and they're just on specific topics like responsibility like we've talked today, even on acceptance of divorce and spending quality time. So that's a bit more of substance there. But I always have an Instagram page, just akidwithtwohomes
Bella Duncan (01:01:25.684)
And on there I just post little reminders and snippets like showing respect for your co-parent showing your kid. And it's just little things like that can really keep you thinking from the kid's perspective. Because as I said, there's so much out there from the parent's perspective, which is great. But sometimes you need to hear it from the kid themselves. There's a lot in the pipeline. And that's to come soon. But I would also, of course, Robert, love to be a guest on here again, if you ever had
people asking questions from the kid's perspective or any particular topic, I'm so happy.
Robert (01:02:00.122)
Yeah. So when you were taught your girl, thank you for saying that. Cause I want you to come back. Um, because when you were, as you were talking, uh, I would love to have you back to speak about.
the impact of your dad on the impact of dads on daughters. And I've really been trying to, you know, I've had guys talk about the impact of fathers on sons, but I would really love to hear that. And, you know, again, kind of go into more about what your dad meant to you and having him involved in your life. I would love that.
Bella Duncan (01:02:20.718)
Yeah.
Bella Duncan (01:02:38.998)
sure.
Robert (01:02:39.914)
Yeah, I definitely thank you so much. I mean, seriously, thank you for taking time out of your day and for being on here. I mean, I really do appreciate it. So thank you, Bella. Okay. Hey, and thank you all for listening to the Daddy Dad's podcast. You can find us on Spotify or Apple podcast, as well as on Instagram and also YouTube. And don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button so you don't miss any future episodes. And we'll see you all next time. Thank you so much.
Bella Duncan (01:02:42.584)
Yes, you're welcome.
Bella Duncan (01:02:49.476)
Thanks for having me, Robert. So happy to be here.
Robert (01:03:09.929)
I-