In this episode, Dr. Daniel David, men's mental health expert, discusses the impact of narcissism and borderline personality disorder on children. He explains how children's identity development is affected when their needs are overshadowed by a narcissistic parent's need for attention and admiration. Dr. David emphasizes the importance of positive regard and mirroring in a child's development and the role of both mothers and fathers in providing nurturing and acceptance. He also discusses the challenges of mother enmeshment and the negative impact it can have on boys' ability to form healthy relationships in adulthood. This conversation explores the impact of unhealthy mother-son relationships, the influence of 90s parenting on these relationships, and the theme of control in narcissism and borderline personality disorder. It also discusses the need for assertiveness in passive children, mothers' understanding of child development, and the importance of letting go and allowing children to experience life.
Takeaways
In this episode, Dr. Daniel David, men's mental health expert, discusses the impact of narcissism and borderline personality disorder on children. He explains how children's identity development is affected when their needs are overshadowed by a narcissistic parent's need for attention and admiration. Dr. David emphasizes the importance of positive regard and mirroring in a child's development and the role of both mothers and fathers in providing nurturing and acceptance. He also discusses the challenges of mother enmeshment and the negative impact it can have on boys' ability to form healthy relationships in adulthood. This conversation explores the impact of unhealthy mother-son relationships, the influence of 90s parenting on these relationships, and the theme of control in narcissism and borderline personality disorder. It also discusses the need for assertiveness in passive children, mothers' understanding of child development, and the importance of letting go and allowing children to experience life.
Takeaways
Robert (00:00)
Hey everyone. Welcome back to the dad to dad's podcast. So I have received a lot of feedback and messages regarding an episode, uh, a while back, which I did, which, um, the topics were narcissism and borderline personality disorder. And a lot of the messages and emails which I received revolve are centered around, uh, parents who have, are whose partners have been diagnosed with narcissism and borderline personality disorder.
was what impact will their partner's diagnosis of that disorder, what impact will that have on their children? So I thought about it and I said, hmm, who could I bring in to answer these questions? And I thought, what better person than a former guest and also an old friend of mine, or maybe I shouldn't say old, but a long time friend of mine.
Daniel P. David, PhD (00:54)
Ha! Right.
Robert (00:55)
Dr. Daniel David, a men's mental health therapist and expert. Dr. David, welcome back to the show.
Daniel P. David, PhD (01:02)
Well, thank you for having me back. I guess you didn't get negative ratings from me. Oh, good, good.
Robert (01:06)
Oh, we did. We did. Thanks to you from the last time I had been, um, I guess you could call it shadow band, uh, several times on Instagram. Uh, I got throttled down on YouTube and so you know what my thinking was if we're getting negative feedback from some of those people, let's do it again. And obviously I'm not going to be controlled by
Daniel P. David, PhD (01:18)
Wow.
Wow.
Robert (01:36)
the 1% are less than 1%. And you know what? For every negative DM that I received, I probably received 50 to 75 positive ones. So we did something.
Daniel P. David, PhD (01:50)
Yes, yes, I mean, sure. I appreciate the fact that sometimes we have to ruffle feathers and be straight shooters and make sure that we are as honest with ourselves as possible because we live in this world of disinformation and it's dizzying at times. So, I really appreciate the fact that you are out there speaking to men and women. I think that's pretty cool. So.
Robert (02:18)
Well, thank you. Yeah. Thank you for coming back on. I tell you what, if anybody has missed that episode, I would highly recommend you go back. We discussed toxin. These are some of the reasons why we got shut down. Uh, toxic masculinity, toxic moms, how academia is unfair to boys, feminist, how society puts boys down to raise girls up. That is just a few of the topics that we discussed, which, uh,
Daniel P. David, PhD (02:18)
I'm glad we're here today. Thank you for inviting me again.
Robert (02:47)
Um, or a little bit controversial, but at the same time, I think needed to be needed to be said, and I appreciate you doing so some. All right. So, uh, again, after your episode, as well as Dr. Salerno's who's a personality disorder specialist, I've received a lot of feedback and concerns from parents, uh, parents whose partner, uh,
Daniel P. David, PhD (02:54)
Well, thank you. Thank you very much.
Mm-hmm.
Robert (03:14)
has a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder or narcissism. And they might not have been diagnosed, but they exhibit all the traits. Um, and they were worried about what impact will their partner, their pair, their, the, the parent, what impact will that have on their children? What, what can you tell me?
Daniel P. David, PhD (03:39)
Well, first of all, let me just put a little disclaimer under the screen and also add some information before I get started here, because I think people need to know where I'm coming from and how I see things. And obviously, this is something that I have been observing for over 30 years. I...
I worked with teenagers for 22 years before I became a therapist. And I worked in New York City with two major high schools in Queens, New York. I had my own nonprofit organization that worked with teenagers. And I was actually asked to come in as a consultant to these two high schools. And so I observed a lot of...
family dynamics going on and children who really struggled with the educational system. And a lot of times there was some things going on in the background and usually those things are what's happening in the home. So that was my first real understanding of what we're going to talk about today. And then of course...
I was trained in psycho-dynamic counseling at the University of Oxford in England, and it really opened me up to understanding how individuals develop and grow, and how we have to go through these developmental stages, and how those developmental stages are impacted by our environment, which includes family and, in particular, parents. And so...
That's part of my perspective. And I'm also trained in dialectical behavioral therapy, which is a evidence-based therapy, like a cognitive behavioral therapy that is used for helping individuals with borderline personality disorder, sometimes other personality disorders. It's questionable about how we can work with someone who has a true narcissistic personality disorder diagnosis.
So that's part of what I do. Sometimes it's easy to, and this is part of how I feel about this, sometimes it's easy to characterize these individuals with these personality disorders as bad or in a negative light. And I don't wanna do that, but sometimes you have to be very real about these conditions and not only the impact on the individual who has the condition, but also the impact on everyone around them.
I'm very mindful about that when I talk about these things today. So I just wanted to put that out there for your listeners and people who are watching this that, you know, I try to come at everything with compassion and try not to be judgmental. But sometimes we have to talk straightforward. And sometimes we have to, you know, enlighten people to say, okay, there's some real problems here and we need to watch out for these problems because, you know, in reality, these are
Robert (06:16)
No, thank you.
Daniel P. David, PhD (06:35)
you know, it's people's lives that we're talking about. And the quality of life, you know, as an adult, I know that a lot of my life came from where I'm from, you know, and the individual, my parents and my family and my neighborhood and my school and, you know, my environment, all of that shaped who I am today. So it is important to talk about these things. And when we talk about,
Robert (06:47)
Right.
Daniel P. David, PhD (06:59)
borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder, there are some real concerns, not only for the individuals, but for the children that grow up under these parents. And so, um, and so, you know, that's sort of where I'm coming from today to talk about the children and especially, um, how kids have to cope under a borderline parent or a narcissistic parent.
Robert (07:26)
No, it's good. You know, you say compassion and sometimes compassion is having these heavy talks and being very straightforward. I think a lot of times we think compassion is just being sweet and being nice and everything else. Well, you know, sometimes you have to have like my grandmother used to say, I come to Jesus meeting and that's that that's compassion as well, you know.
Daniel P. David, PhD (07:35)
Mm-hmm.
Right, right, right. My inner New Yorker comes out at those moments to say, look, we're going to, I'm going to tell you like it is.
Robert (07:52)
Ha ha.
Which is great. That's great. Well, I want you to tell us like it is. I'm sure you have seen numerous people and you alluded to it. Young men who have been raised with a parent who is narcissistic or has narcissism or borderline personality disorder. What's the impact there on the kids?
Daniel P. David, PhD (08:15)
So when we think about how we are during our first developmental years, let's say zero to nine just for argument's sake right now, it's sort of like wet cement. I tell guys all the time, if you put out a sidewalk and you lay out wet cement and then the next day in the morning time you come out and you see little paw prints across the wet cement. And then that...
cement has hardened, you're going to then have those prints in that cement and it's going to be there permanently. And so everything we do to, you know, with our children and, you know, I know that there's no perfect parent out there. I'm a parent and I know I'm not perfect. We have an impact on our children and we're brain training them. And so...
And so the profound impact that kids have is it's usually because they had a parent and if we talk about narcissistic personality disorder for a moment, they have a parent that is sort of like, I use this analogy, you know, you have a sun and then you have the moon. And if the parent is outshining
and very bright because of their need, their narcissistic need for attention, admiration, praise, and they just kind of light up the room all the time. And that child is there and they're the moon because they have no energy yet, they have no identity yet. They're going to be outshined by the parent. And that's the worst time in childhood development to have a parent that's outshining.
the child, why? Because children need what's called mirroring from their parents. And the mirroring is when I look at my parent, and if we all recall how little we were and we look up at this big giant and we're looking to the parent for positive regard, validation to be affirmed, to be seen as someone with value. And
to be loved and cared for and nurtured. And we're needing that because that feeds our sense of being and our sense of identity. And we're not getting that because the parent is more concerned about their own needs, wants and desires, and has to outshine the child. Well, there's a deficit that starts to develop within the child and that child then struggles to have its own identity. So.
When we're talking about identity development, it's crucial for that positive regard to feed the child so the child can know that when the parent looks at the child, oh, I'm okay. What do children need? They need one of two things. They need to know that their parents are okay, and if their parents are okay, then they're okay. And at that age, if your parent isn't okay, you can't be okay.
Robert (11:20)
true.
Daniel P. David, PhD (11:24)
because you're totally 100% dependent on that parent for survival and basically your identity needs. Mom and dad love me, I'm valuable to them, they see me, they hear me, they validate me, they comfort me, they love me, they nurture me, they take care of me, those are the essential needs of a child and that's when that brain is wet cement.
Robert (11:24)
Right.
Daniel P. David, PhD (11:52)
Right? So what I see a lot of times is when, cause I work with a lot of young guys in their twenties, I see the result of parenting that where the parent's needs outshine the child's needs. And then these young guys grow up and they don't know that their needs are valid. They don't know that their needs are.
important because they spent all their time trying to meet their parents' needs, whether it's a mother or a father. And I think mothers and fathers with narcissistic personality disorder affect their children differently because of the source of love and nurture that they give. So you know, mother love tends to be a nurturing love, whereas father love tends to be an accepting love. And so, and children need both.
Robert (12:42)
Mm-hmm.
Daniel P. David, PhD (12:45)
And now it's not to say mothers can't be accepting and fathers can't be nurturing, but the primary understanding of a child with mother is mom loves me and she cares for me and she has this warmth and this good touch and care feel. Whereas dad is, hey, you can jump higher. You can do better. And that's that sort of acceptance love that kids need.
Robert (13:06)
Right.
Daniel P. David, PhD (13:11)
I think that's the problem with when there's a narcissistic need of the mother, then the child doesn't get that nurturing.
when there's a narcissistic need from the father, the child doesn't get the acceptance. It's basically the child is there to serve the need of the mother or the father, whichever parent has the NPD, right? So...
Robert (13:35)
Can that need also, that need from the narcissistic parent? Can that also be filled by the child's accomplishment? Let's say, you know, that the child is really good at some sport or really good at school or very popular. Do you see that?
Daniel P. David, PhD (13:51)
You know, with, especially with narcissistic personality disorder, uh, there, there are, there's an, uh, um, two directions that you can think about here. It's, it's, uh, valuation or devaluation. And so with a child, for example, achieving something, the narcissistic parent sees the child as the extension of self. And as long as that child is.
a shining star at school, then the parent feels like, oh yes, that's me because that's part of me, right? And so feeds off of that and has to push that. And so I've seen that with fathers who have that, they're on the sidelines on the football field, yelling at their sons because their sons have to.
get that touchdown and if the son doesn't, then it's a let down to the father and the father's feeding off of the child. Usually with boys feeding off their son's achievements. Whereas mothers might, if they have a good looking son or a good looking daughter, might parade their son or daughter around and make it seem as though that's an extension of her. And that, so a lot of times what I see with
Robert (14:44)
Right.
Daniel P. David, PhD (15:08)
NPD parents who have children in that light, they sexualize their children too. Isn't my daughter so beautiful? They may get into some jealousy with their daughters, whereas with their sons, it might be that they sexualize their sons and want to put them out there for everyone to see, this is my son because he's an extension of her. So that's...
becomes a problem too because both kids, sons and daughters, they don't get to have their own identity separate and apart from the parent. And as we grow through this period, from zero to nine, then 10, 11, 12, we need to have more of an independent identity separate from our parents, right? And...
that isn't usually allowed or isn't encouraged in the situation where the narcissistic parent is feeding off the child, like as if you're here to meet my needs rather than you have your own needs for your own identity, you're here to support me, right? And so you're my child, it's kind of almost like an ownership that they feel over their kids.
Robert (16:16)
Right.
Well, when you're saying that the thing that's coming to mind is it sounds like a lot of control Is it yeah
Daniel P. David, PhD (16:28)
It's extreme control. Yes, like I've had guys who've had maybe either narcissistic parent where, if it's mom, there's a lot of scheduling, a lot of you're gonna do this, you're gonna do that because mom has to project out into society that I'm a wonderful mother. Look how wonderful I am. I have this wonderful child, or wonderful children.
Robert (16:49)
Right.
Daniel P. David, PhD (16:53)
And so a lot of what's driving the over scheduling of children and putting them out into, you know, sports or drama or whatever is because it's really the parents need to feel like they're special, right? Or
Robert (17:13)
Or could be even posting on social media, making the world view them as the perfect parent, you know, the perfect mom, the perfect whatever it may be. Look how loved I am by my kids. Look how wonderful I, you know.
Daniel P. David, PhD (17:22)
Right. And a lot of times, right. Exactly. And I see that a lot with, um, children and, uh, social media. So I have in particular with these guys, after they reach adolescents and they start pushing away from their parents, which is part of being an adolescent, if that
parent, that narcissistic parent, overcomes that need to push away and overpowers the child. The child then loses more of its identity and then becomes usually very passive or very aggressive, depending on the personality of the child. It's like...
Robert (18:03)
That was, it's funny, because when you were saying that, that's one of the, that's actually the first thing that I wrote down that I was gonna ask you, is the passive. Do you see them becoming very passive and more people pleasing?
Daniel P. David, PhD (18:20)
Well, sometimes I get guys that come into my practice and I literally have to coach them on becoming more assertive because they have a real problem with passivity and they don't know that they're supposed to be more assertive, that they can assert their identity to say, this is who I am, this is what I believe, this is what I'm about. They haven't had that.
ability because until, even sometimes when they're still seeing me, their parents are still heavily involved in directing them and telling them what to do and how to live, right? Because that parent is not going to let go of them that easily. So they're struggling and I have to sometimes coach these guys into rebelling a bit with their parents to say, mom, dad, that's enough.
I can handle myself and learn to be more that individual has to learn how to be more responsible for himself and be able to make his own decisions and be able to, you know, you know, have his own consequences for his decisions and feel good about that and build confidence. And they can't because they're being held by the parent because the parents saying you're not leaving me yet. Right. And that just it's.
in part why a lot of guys, young guys that, you know, I'm really only speaking about young men because I only work with men. You know, I'm certain this happens with young women as well. But a lot of the failure to launch and the incapacitation of the young man who's basically like looking at life as a deer in headlights, you know, just stunned like, okay, now.
now what am I supposed to do? And then they come to see me, and I actually have to coach them on having an identity, getting in touch with who they are, right? Because they've had so much of that, the sun they were in the presence of this sun parent, right? That outshined them, their needs outshined their needs, as the parents' needs outshined the parents of the needs of the child. And so kids don't feel
like their needs matter and their needs are put aside so that they can meet the needs of other people so they become people pleasers. They become passive, they become passive aggressive, they become very timid in life, they don't take many risks in life, they try to play it safe, they try to be perfect because to be less than perfect.
Robert (20:45)
Yeah.
Daniel P. David, PhD (21:04)
was always a way to displease mom or dad, the narcissistic parent. And so they're pretty, if I can say it, F'd up. When they get to that point and then they're now in therapy because they're depressed and anxious and don't know what to do with themselves.
Robert (21:19)
Yeah, so you said something when you were talking about rebel and you have to teach them at times to rebel. It's normal and healthy to rebel, right? I mean, if you have two parents without And the kid does not have a disorder. I mean, it's you're gonna have some rebellion. And again, we're speaking with about sons here. That's natural biology, right?
Daniel P. David, PhD (21:28)
Right, absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
Right, right. At around 14, 15 years old, parents have said to me in the past, my kid was such an angel, now he's a devil. Like, well, that's normal. He needs to start pushing against you.
Robert (21:52)
Well, yeah. And I think about, yeah, I think about just in olden times in the history I've read with even Indians, you know, once they become a young warrior, they, they leave the tribe and go off and, you know, live their life and have to kill a bear or whatever it may be. And they come back. I mean, you, you see that and you see that even in wildlife too. Right. I mean,
Daniel P. David, PhD (22:15)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Robert (22:19)
You see it with lion cubs, you know, the male lions who leave and start their own identity. Yeah, that's interesting. So what about with, you know, another thing that came to mind too is conditional versus unconditional love as well when you have these, you know, when you're a child that you might experience that as well. Like.
You know, Oh, you did so wonderful. You scored four touchdowns. What you didn't even score a touchdown. And then you just, you know, I guess they all goes back to based upon the identity of that disordered parent.
Daniel P. David, PhD (22:54)
Yeah, so again, what do children need? They need that mirroring to look into their parents' eyes and see the love and the compassion, the care, the acceptance, right? And then they need to be able to feel as though that when they do something that they're recognized for it,
And like I said, that the nurture love of the mother, the acceptance love of the father, both of those loves are very valuable for nurturing a healthy identity within a child. But if the child, let's say has an achievement, like I have guys who, you know, especially with narcissistic fathers who, and we're talking about, I just wanna make.
make it clear, we're talking about people who could be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. We're not talking about an egotistical father or someone who's just, you know, a little bit selfish and, you know, unaware that he needs to really spend time with his kids. And then later on wakes up one day and realizes he didn't spend time. We're not talking about that. We're talking about personality disorders here. So when you have that detached, disinterested, narcissistic parent,
then the child doesn't get the feedback or the mirroring that they're loved. The child gets the feedback that the child is responsible for the parent's love. To love the parent, to worship the parent. The parent becomes the God. And what happens then is the child is trained
this is the wet cement being imprinted on, is being trained to meet the needs of the parent. And I used to do parent conferences and I used to say, your children are not there to meet your needs. You are there to meet their needs. And that's a healthy, healthy parent. We are here to meet our children's needs. They're not there to meet our needs. But when that narcissism,
Robert (24:55)
Right. Great point. Love that.
Love that.
Daniel P. David, PhD (25:06)
disinterested detached personality disorder is active, the parent functions on the attention and the praise and the adulation that they get or adoration that they get and they're seeking it constantly. And that child better affirm that the parent is the God in the relationship. And when the child does not, it goes from inflation to deflation. So,
Inflation is as long as the child remains loyal to the parent and continues to show the parent how wonderful the parent is, then that's where the child is inflated.
with daughters, for example, and mothers, I've seen mothers get jealous over their beautiful daughters being more beautiful than they are because a narcissistic mother can't handle the fact that her daughter is gonna be better looking than she is. And so there's a huge jealousy going on there. And so again, the child is there to meet the parent's need.
And that's really what narcissistic personality NPD does to children.
Robert (26:17)
Hmm.
but if the, if the not, if the non-personally disordered parent has concerns, um, what, what can, what can they do to help that kid? Is that to give them the extra love and affection and care?
Daniel P. David, PhD (26:30)
Yes.
Yes, it depends on the parent too, again, because the difference between nurture love and acceptance love, and that's mom and dad. If it's a father trying to compensate for a narcissistic mother, then the father has to do a bit more of the nurturing and making sure that the children feel heard, seen, heard and valued.
You know, I don't believe that it's, and this is part of the problem with our current generation. I think some parents overcompensate and say to their children, oh, you're so special. And, you know, I used to scream at parents, like, don't call your children special. You know how hard it is to keep that up, you know? You know, because one day they're gonna feel not special and then they're gonna get depressed because they don't feel special. So don't.
Robert (27:33)
Mmm. Good point.
Daniel P. David, PhD (27:35)
freaking call your kids special. It doesn't help them, okay? But if you're a parent of, and you're trying to offset a narcissistic parent parenting style, then it's important to show your child positive regard. I say encourage your children based on their behaviors, rather than their.
the nature of who they are, but more on their behaviors. Wow, you really did that. I'm really proud of you. Keep going. You're doing a great job. Wow, I really like it when you behave this way. It really shows that you're growing and you're maturing and really just focus on encouraging children for their behaviors. Of course, you're my son, you're my daughter. I love you. There's...
nothing more valuable to me than you. You are, you know, you're my children, but at the same time, you know, you want to make sure that you're constantly giving them some good emotional feedback on who they are and then, and their behaviors. And so that will encourage them to be better and healthier children, right? And they'll eventually grow up with these positive behaviors.
It doesn't do any good and it's not helpful to bad mouth the other parent because that can create parent alienation. I do have problems with parents bad mouthing each other, especially mothers bad mouthing fathers because ultimately children, both boys and girls need dads. But when you have mothers who call their dads names.
Robert (29:10)
Hmm.
Daniel P. David, PhD (29:16)
you know, your dad's a loser in front of the kids. They don't realize they're doing some severe harm to the psyche of the children. And eventually those children will grow up and have problems, you know, either trusting men or being a man because the mother has, you know, trashed the father in front of the children. And that's part of parent alienation. So, you know, a BPD parent will have a tendency to...
Uh, if the other parent isn't in line with the praise and worship and adoration of how wonderful they are, isn't in line with that, we'll have a tendency to lash out at that parent. And then, you know, and that creates a lot of problems in, um, the children's psyche because they see that. And, uh, and so it impacts them as they develop into young adulthood. Right. So I think that positive regard.
affirming them for who they are, affirming them for their good behavior. That's a good way to feed their identity needs.
Robert (30:20)
It's good. It's good. You had touched on it about not saying anything about the other parent.
should they identify that behavior to their kid or name it such as, I don't know, gas lighting or anything like that? Or how, how should, how should a parent. If they are being, being alienated, I get this a lot. Okay. So I actually, this morning I received a, uh, a DM from a, from a dad who is. Has, I think three daughters and, uh,
Daniel P. David, PhD (30:41)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (30:53)
His ex continues to trash him. His daughters are all teenagers, if I remember correctly. One, no, the youngest is almost a teenager. And he asked me, what should I do? You know, his wife never would get diagnosed, but he said she checks every single box of narcissism. What should a parent do? What do you suggest a parent does?
Should they identify the behaviors for their kids? Should they just not say anything? What?
Daniel P. David, PhD (31:20)
Well, age is important. And the younger they are, the less likely it's a good idea to talk to them about their mother or father. So I don't encourage that. I think that can create parent alienation. I think that children eventually as they get older start to understand mom and dad and understand the dynamic that's happening. It's still not a good idea.
to label a parent the opposite parent. And so what I would encourage is therapy for kids is really important. I think that's a valid way of helping a child cope. That's why dialectical behavioral therapy often is used with younger kids, with maybe parents who have personality disorders too, so that
kids can actually speak up for themselves, assert themselves, and not have their identity diffused in the sense that they struggle with solidifying their identity. So that's usually a problem with kids. And I get these guys who don't quite have an identity yet solidified, and so therefore I have to work with them on getting that identity.
solidified right so um so but the parent that doesn't have the personality disorder can offset a lot of the behaviors of that parent by making sure that they're affirming their kids in the way that maybe mom and the mom or dad whoever has the personality disorder is not doing okay uh because
Robert (33:00)
Gotcha.
Daniel P. David, PhD (33:02)
One parent, at least grounded parent, who says, okay, I see you, I'm validating your feelings, I see you, I value you, is gonna be better than no parent, right? And, right, exactly. And then I think that that's where mom and dad have to have it out a bit, okay, and say, you can't do that, you can't say that to our child that's not healthy.
Robert (33:14)
Right. Being their safe space.
Daniel P. David, PhD (33:28)
And that's where I think I definitely agree with Dr. Salerno on these are baked in traits of personality. So there isn't going to be a lot of therapy around, especially NPDs. BPDs seek therapy and NPDs avoid therapy. So when you're...
Robert (33:32)
Salerno. Salerno, yeah.
Daniel P. David, PhD (33:53)
grandiose narcissist, you don't think anybody that you need therapy, it's everybody else's problem. When a parent has BPD, which is usually characterized by fear of abandonment and unstable relationships, they usually seek out therapy because they're not happy about it. But nevertheless, the other parent has to establish with that
Robert (33:59)
Right.
Daniel P. David, PhD (34:20)
parent, hey, we can't do these things. We have to set boundaries. So I always talk about behavioral changes for both, because I think at least with the NPD parent, there can be some behavioral modification and conditions and boundaries set with an NPD parent.
But that's a big burden on the other parent because the other parent has to make sure that the child is understanding that some behaviors are unhealthy, right? Even without labeling it and even without, you know, bad mouthing the other parent.
Robert (34:49)
Right, right.
makes sense. I want to another subject that I wanted to go into is mother enmeshment. You touched on that last time and there were several questions. So mother enmeshment, what is it? What does it look like? Is it harmful? And if it is harmful, tell us.
Daniel P. David, PhD (35:21)
Well, at some point early in childhood, you want your mom and dad to be somewhat enmeshed with you. It's like mom and dad need to be overly concerned, overly protective, overly structured because this is a child and a child needs those guard rails and needs that direction and things like that. So.
Robert (35:40)
Right.
Daniel P. David, PhD (35:44)
So, you know, some people will say, well, you know, my mom, you know, she was too much when I was five years old. I'm like, well, maybe you were too much too, but really I think I get more concerned about mother enmeshment.
Um, when it's appropriate for boys, especially to separate from their mothers and, you know, this starts around 14, 15 years old. Um, and you know, the brain is changing the male brain, the boys brain is changing and, you know, he, he's going to want to take more risk and he's going to kind of push against mom because mom is nurture and stay with me, hold on, I'm going to hold on to you, I'm going to keep you safe. Right. And boys need.
this sort of, I want to go out into the world and I want to test the world and I want to test myself. And that usually runs against the nurture type of love compared to the father's acceptance type of love. So mother, son, and measurement starts with when the boy pushes away from mom and it's natural and healthy to do so.
mother overpowers the son and says, you're not getting away from me. I'm holding on to you and you are here. I'm here to be your mom and you're going to be my little boy forever.
So the enmeshment is that there's no there's no separation of self.
and you know, you get these moms who are really pissed because I won't talk to them before I talk to their sons. And I'm like, well, if you want me to work with your, yeah, adult sons, okay. So, and then it's a problem when guys come to me and say, you know, my mother still is saying these things. And I'm like, and what are you doing about it? Right? Well, what am I supposed to, I don't want to hurt her.
Robert (37:22)
before you talk to their adult son.
Daniel P. David, PhD (37:40)
I'm like, well, there's a thing called necessary wounding and it's really a part of male initiation and it really has something to do with boys separating from their mothers and mothers realizing that they can no longer be the mother to that boy. Yes, it's like, well, it looks like this in New York when I was back in the day in New York and I'd have mothers come to me because I did all these parent conferences and.
Robert (37:57)
necessary wounding. That looks like that looks like what?
Daniel P. David, PhD (38:10)
They'd say, well, my son, I can't believe it. My son, you know, we have all these wonderful schools in New York and the Northeast and, you know, great schools. And why does my son want to go to school in Los Angeles? I'm like, to get away from you, of course. And they go like this. And it's like, well, of course, they need to get away from you. And that's the necessary wounding. It's like, okay, you need to understand that.
Robert (38:24)
to get away from your ass.
Yeah.
Daniel P. David, PhD (38:35)
this isn't your little boy anymore. This is a man and you need to let him go. And you need to have the mindset shift and get out of this, he's my little boy mindset and begin to understand that you are no longer a mother to a boy, you are a mother to a man. And you have to understand that you have to have these healthy boundaries with him and understand that he's an adult now.
Robert (39:01)
I think about as you're saying this, I think there's two things, one of them.
the negative impact that has on that young man later on in life with relationships. He can't fully have a romantic relationship, a love interest, a true love interest because of that. Because then that the mom comes in probably is very overpowering. And who, who does he love? Who does he love more? You know,
Daniel P. David, PhD (39:33)
Right, so here's the, you know, the boy nature, the boy nature is to protect mom, you know? So like around nine or 10, it's not unusual for boys to want to make mom happy. And that's part of growing up. And so I wanna make mom happy. I wanna make her, I wanna protect her. So of course, if she's bad mouthing dad, then he, the boy becomes an enemy to the father and tries to protect the mother.
Robert (39:47)
Right.
Daniel P. David, PhD (40:00)
Right. And that, that happens. And, um, and so, uh, so he grows up and he, and he's now pleasing his mom. And then one day she gets pissed off at him and says, you know, you're just like your dad. And he had, she had been, you know, bad mouthing him the whole time. And of course the boy is thinking, I want, I want to protect her. And all of a sudden she turns on him and he starts to feel bad about that. And so what's he tried to do? He tries to make her happy again and he tries to please her and that's her way of controlling him.
And so eventually as he matures and grows up and he's pushing away from mom, and then he finds a girl and he thinks, okay, I'm gonna go out and have a girlfriend. And then of course, he just transfers his mother to the girl and starts thinking of her and seeing her in, you know, it's a transference as we call it, in the light of my mom. And whatever issue that he has not resolved with his mother, it just gets transferred.
to the next woman in his life. And this is why so many men are having problems with dating and relationships with women is because they haven't resolved that separation, that clear separation, something like cell division, you know, like you have a cell and it's dividing, right? Well, they have to separate, this is the breaking the enmeshment. So you have to separate and then these ends have to come together to seal the cell so it doesn't just bleed out, right? And...
Robert (41:26)
Right.
Daniel P. David, PhD (41:27)
and then it becomes a separate cell. And when men, young men, don't separate cleanly from their mothers and have a healthy separation, identity separation, what happens is they're still enmeshed and they're still plugged into their mom. And then they just try to get away from her by going to the next woman. And they find the same woman because they're familiar with the personality traits of mom and that's what looks familiar. So they...
look for those traits in another woman, they find that woman, but they can never, because they're trying to fix this, they can never really completely understand, okay, this is my girlfriend or now my wife, and I just need to focus on her. And this is where mothers come in a lot of times and cause wreak havoc on marriages, because mother hasn't yet
It's a real issue. I mean, I could go on for hours on this issue because it is, I see it more prevalent in society today than I've ever seen it.
Robert (42:25)
Why do you think?
Daniel P. David, PhD (42:27)
I think it's because this is where I have a little bit of beef with the 90s psychology that went on. This sort of helicopter parenting, safe word, safe room, participation trophies that went on into the 2000s. All that BS that actually made children more dependent on their parents because their kids
weren't able to, you know, be free range children. They had to be, you know, under, you know, stranger danger and always watching out for all the bad people in the world. And, you know, you, you know, mom, you know, helicoptering over. And then mom's becoming bulldozers and sometimes dads do, but most of the time it's just mothers. Um, because mothers are usually the ones dealing with the school or whatever. Um, and, and so these boys become neurotic.
They become super anxious and they can't make decisions on their own without doubting their own decisions. And so when they get out into the real world, they're really paralyzed. And so this whole generation, I believe it's because of the overindulgence and over smothering of children that now we have this generation of highly anxious, highly depressed kids, both boys and girls.
Robert (43:51)
Mm.
Well, you know, why is it, I feel like the underlying theme of our conversation is control, control. But I guess that is the, that's the underlying theme of narcissism and borderline personality disorder or one of them. Correct. Control your environment, control your surroundings, control your audience or those which are
giving, you know, giving you an audience. Is that it? Having to have just immense control.
Daniel P. David, PhD (44:20)
Well, you know, control based on perception. So for the borderline parent, it's, don't leave me.
Robert (44:24)
Yeah, good.
Daniel P. David, PhD (44:27)
And for the narcissistic parent, it's don't make me look bad, you should only make me look good, right? And so that's where the control happens. And...
Robert (44:39)
Oh my gosh. And you're talking about the, when you said borderline, don't leave me. That goes back to that boy nature protecting mom. And I imagine they just continue that as they get older and older and older. Correct. And then, you know, as you're thinking, as you're seeing this, I'm thinking, Oh, well, you've got a 35 year old son whose mom is probably, Oh, poor me. What am I going to do without you? Oh, I'll handle it myself since I don't have anybody here to do it. And you know,
Daniel P. David, PhD (44:52)
Right, yes.
Yes, and he's afraid to hurt her. So when we go back to necessary wounding, sometimes I coach guys, I say, this is going to hurt.
but your surgeon has to cut you open in order to take out whatever disease there is inside and then sew you back up, you know, that hurts, but it's healing. And if you really want to have a better relationship with your mother, you're gonna have to do things that she's gonna say is hurting her, but that's not what you're doing, you're actually separating from her and making the relationship, you wanna make the relationship with your mother healthier and she's gonna fight sometimes to keep you just...
as you are a little boy in a man's body. So better do it now than later, because it'll get worse if you don't. And so you have to separate from her. And I have guys who literally have to say, okay, if you can't respect my boundaries, and if you can't understand that I'm not that little boy anymore, we won't be talking for a while. And that's hard. Especially if he was,
Robert (46:10)
Yeah.
Daniel P. David, PhD (46:13)
her little man or her surrogate husband or emotional support then that makes it hard for him because he feels like he's betraying his mother or he'll start to feel you know a lot of these guys will have guilt complexes over this and I'm like well that's because you need healing too. This relationship has gotten to the point where it's unhealthy and you know your mom is unhealthy, you're unhealthy and if you're going to get healthy
It's going to break the relationship that you have currently and you're going to have to move into towards health. And if she moves towards health, that's great. If she doesn't, that's, that's not your responsibility. So what does health look like at health? Health means separate, healthy separation, healthy identity. You have your own identity apart from your parents now, and you need to, um, live your life based on who you are, not on what they told you. You, you should be.
because it suited them and met their needs.
Robert (47:15)
Okay, you know how my brain works. Sometimes it's all over the place. And one thing you said, I'm gonna go back to, okay, two parents, non-disordered parent and the parent that has the disorder. Should the, if one of the children is a people pleaser and is very passive, should the non-disordered parent maybe encourage
Daniel P. David, PhD (47:27)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (47:39)
rebellion or and let me finish this should they should they encourage conflict so that child will gain a voice gain a spine find it should they
Daniel P. David, PhD (47:53)
Well, here's, you know, it's a very delicate situation because, right, because, you know, you don't know the current situation. However, what I usually do is I'll just straight up ask, okay, so what do you want? What do you need? Tell me what you need. Not what everybody else needs. What do you need? What do you want?
Robert (47:56)
so that maybe they'll practice it otherwise.
Daniel P. David, PhD (48:19)
And then.
You ask, how can you speak up for what you need and what you want? And then I ask, what boundaries do you need to set with the individuals, your parents or others based on what you need and want? Sometimes you have to tell them no, and I'm not going to do that anymore. And that's not right. And this is what I want. This is what I need and be able to assert themselves. Right. And it's all about.
I think most of the work I do with men in general is just communication and being able to assert themselves. Because identity comes from, when we have a solid identity, we're able to assert who we are and what our values are. And that's going to be the remedy for a lot of problems that men have and really does help to improve mental health is when we teach assertiveness.
And so I do a lot of that with guys.
Robert (49:16)
For those that are so brainwashed, that's probably not the proper term, but do you teach them different ways to assert themselves and maybe kind of baby step them into it?
Daniel P. David, PhD (49:28)
Sure, sure, it's always, you know, baby steps and, you know, and trial and error and, you know, come back and tell me how it went. And then, you know, let's try that again, but let's do it a little differently, you know, so, you know, cause sometimes guys don't understand the difference between assertiveness and aggression. And I'm like, okay, that was aggressive. Okay, we need to turn that flame down. You don't.
Robert (49:52)
All right, let's get a notch or two down here.
Daniel P. David, PhD (49:54)
Yeah, you don't need to light it up with a flame thrower. So, and they'll laugh and that's good, you know, because it's a learning experience, but yes, it is baby steps. And so, but it comes back to, okay, again, giving them voice. What do you need? What do you want? How can you speak up for what you need and want? What boundaries do you need to set? Right? And what would that look like?
Robert (49:58)
Hahaha
Daniel P. David, PhD (50:23)
And then you just work through that with them and coach them through that.
Robert (50:26)
What else with the mother-son dynamic do you comes to mind that you think needs to be discussed, that needs to be brought out to the forefront? Or do you think we've kind of hit that?
Daniel P. David, PhD (50:38)
I think that really I wish mothers, I hope mothers are watching this because mothers could do so much better if they would just understand part of the developmental process of their own children. I don't understand the court sometimes, they think that mothers know it all and fathers that have no clue, but that's just not the case. A lot of times mothers don't understand child development in a healthy way.
filter their needs through their children and try to get their needs met. And if they take an adversarial role with their fathers, then they're definitely co-opting the children in the war. So I just encourage mothers to understand that your children need to leave you and you need to let them go. And your children need to have their own separate identities from you. And it doesn't mean
that they don't love you. As a matter of fact, the true, genuine understanding of love is to let them go and let them blossom into the human being that they are meant to be and they'll come back and you will feel proud of your children when they separate from you and they're able to fly on their own and handle life on their own. But, you know, and they don't need you all the time, right?
Yeah, stick around for Hanukkah and Christmas. That's about it. That's, that's all they need right now is that you need to let them out into the world and let them fly and be free. And you will help them by doing that. But if you hold onto them, you're going to impair them and sometimes disable them. And that's to me, the biggest problem that I see.
Robert (52:21)
Wow. That's yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because, um, as you're saying that there is a part of me as my sons get older, where it's like, Oh, I kind of, you know, I, I missed this when they were younger, but at the same time, it's really cool to see them develop and see them taller than you and stronger than you in certain ways and faster than you and making decisions.
Daniel P. David, PhD (52:43)
Mm-hmm.
Robert (52:50)
You know, making somewhat adult decisions that could impact their life. It's scary at times, but it's also really cool to step back and see that, you know.
Daniel P. David, PhD (53:03)
Right. Yes. And that's, that's the beauty of being a parent is like, they should be better than you. They should be taller than you. You know, that's what you want because they have to go out in the world and survive. And that's what fathers really worry about the most is how, how will my children do in the world? Whereas mothers say, they can come home for Christmas or Hanukkah. You know, fathers are like, how will they survive in the world and, and want to make sure they're well equipped for that. So,
Robert (53:10)
That's what we want. Yeah.
Daniel P. David, PhD (53:31)
You know, and that's the beauty of being a parent is to see them fly and make a life for themselves, right? And we got to get away from this selfishness, this, you know, they're here to meet my needs, you know, I'm the lonely parent, so I got to have my children around me all the time. No, go out and have a fucking life and leave your children alone, you know? I don't know if I can swear on this, but.
Robert (53:50)
Yeah.
Well, you already have a few times, so it's fine. I don't give a, put it this way, I don't give a damn if you do or not. So it's okay.
Daniel P. David, PhD (53:58)
Okay.
Good, thanks. Because I tell parents all the time, why aren't you busy about getting a life of your own now? Go out and live it up a bit. Let your kids fly, but go out and show them that you're gonna be happy and you can be happy without them. That doesn't mean you don't love them. It means that they don't have to think about you 24-7.
Robert (54:24)
Yeah, I think too many times parents or certain parents will look at it as they brought this kid into the world to meet their needs, to meet their needs, not meeting the child's needs.
Daniel P. David, PhD (54:36)
Yes, absolutely. And that's part of the problem with the NPD and BPD as well is because it's about meeting the parents' needs. Whether it's a narcissistic supply of you need to make me look wonderful and if you don't, you're gonna be my enemy. Or with the BPD parent, you can't leave me, don't abandon me. I brought you into this world, you're supposed to stay with me. That sort of enmeshment is a problem too.
Robert (55:05)
Oh, you are always so informative. Let me ask you this. What have we missed? What else would you want to? Is there anything else? I think we did. Definitely did.
Daniel P. David, PhD (55:13)
Well, I think we covered the subject pretty well. I don't want to beat it up. At some point, perhaps we should talk about male initiation maybe in a future podcast. That might be a good idea, right?
Robert (55:28)
I would love that. And I think people would get a lot out of that. I do. And you know what else? I don't think you've really said that much. That'll be that controversial that will get me canceled and have that much negative talk. I don't know. I don't. Yeah. I don't know. I'm trying to think, has this been a successful episode or not? I don't, I don't know. Cause I kind of, you know, I tell you what the first, the first negative comments I got, it kind of hit me and I was like, oh my goodness. This isn't what I was hoping.
Daniel P. David, PhD (55:40)
Are you disappointed? Okay Okay, all right get your flamethrower out
Robert (55:57)
And then as I received more, I was like, yeah, we're striking a chord with some people. And these are the people we need to strike a chord with, especially when I pulled up their profile and I was like, okay, yeah, okay.
Daniel P. David, PhD (56:10)
Well, well, I'm certain we're going to, you know, ruffle some feathers of mothers. And it's not my intent. I have a mother, I love my mother very much. And you know, it's not my intent, but you know, every mother has to realize that there's more going on than they tend to be aware of. And child development is a real important part of understanding how your children are going to be healthy and successful in the world.
if you don't follow the rules of child development and understand that you have a time, you have a limited amount of time to raise your child and then you must let go. If you can't let go, you keep them infantile and then they come to me, right, with the inability to make decisions and they come to me with the fear of life
What am I going to do? And, and they come to me devoid of identity, right. Or other therapists like me, right. And, and essentially that's because they're not mentally healthy anymore. And so it is important for mothers to understand, okay, your job is done. Be happy and let them go.
Robert (57:32)
That's, that's, uh, that's so important. No, no, hopefully not. Look, you've said it. I've said it on numerous, on numerous, numerous episodes that moms are important. We love moms. I mean, we, we absolutely do. And, and this isn't a, you know, this podcast isn't about putting down moms because we know they are extremely important, but this is an episode where we want to talk about
Daniel P. David, PhD (57:33)
So now I'm probably gonna get lots of hate mail from others. But I say it with respect.
Mm-hmm. Yes, absolutely.
Robert (57:56)
you know, some of the negative impacts that can happen as a result of, I'm gonna say the word toxic moms.
Daniel P. David, PhD (58:00)
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you said it. Okay. Yes, you said. You know, there you go.
Robert (58:06)
So I'm the one that said it. You didn't. Send the comments to me, not Dr. David. Well, Dr. David, look, thank you again. And it is always a pleasure. I love just having conversations with you. And I really appreciate you taking time out of your day. And I know you're extremely busy.
Daniel P. David, PhD (58:21)
Thank you so much.
Robert (58:28)
And really, I can't thank you enough. And I look forward to future conversations, especially around male initiation. So thank you. So.
Daniel P. David, PhD (58:35)
Yes, yeah, that's one of my favorite subjects by the way. So, and I appreciate you and I appreciate what you're doing and I hope this podcast and all your podcasts reach out and help men and women, whoever are able to hear these words and receive them, right? So thank you.
Robert (58:56)
Well, I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. We're trying. We're doing the best we can. So thank you. All right. And thank you all for listening to the dad to dad's podcast. You can find us on Spotify or Apple podcast, as well as on YouTube and Instagram. And don't forget to hit that like and subscribe button so you don't miss future episodes. And we'll see you all next time. Thank you again, Dr. David.
Daniel P. David, PhD (59:02)
Awesome.
Thank you.