Erin Schaden, Family Law Attorney, Divorce and Co-Parenting Coach

Very insightful conversation with divorce coach and co-parenting expert, Erin Schaden. Erin has been a highly successful family law attorney for the last 28 years, sharing her wisdom and offering advice for those navigating the divorce process or struggling with co-parenting issues. We discuss the role of a divorce coach and the immense value one brings to the table.  How fathers can put themselves in a more favorable position with regards to settlement, alimony as well as child custody determination. Parental alienation being an epidemic. High conflict divorces and how personality disorders are generally at the root of them as well as who makes the best parent.

If you’re a father and you’re wondering how you can best prepare yourself for a more favorable custody decision - this episode is for you as Erin shares how states view as well as determine custody along with two upcoming trends that will impact custody as well as alimony.

Transcript

Robert (00:01.114)
Hey everyone. And welcome back to Dad to Dad's podcast. And I'm excited to introduce Aaron Schaden to the podcast. Aaron is a licensed attorney for the last 28 years, I believe Maryland, New Mexico and DC, and has focused on family law.

Robert (00:31.246)
and is also has Erin Shaden, Divorce Coaching and Mediation Services as well. Erin, thank you so much for joining and also you're the first female on the show.

Erin Schaden (00:41.964)
Ooh, that's so exciting. I'm so honored. That's wonderful, thanks for having me.

Robert (00:44.79)
I know, I know. I've been trying to. I think the name scares everybody off. And they don't think they can have females on. But yeah, I'm so happy that you agreed to be on.

Erin Schaden (00:50.536)
Dads to dads.

Erin Schaden (00:56.188)
Yeah, well thank you. So hopefully I represent my gender well.

Robert (00:59.754)
There you go, there you go. Well, tell me this. Well, first, what did I miss about your background? You're also, you went to Florida State, huge Seminole fan, and yeah, and also a 49ers fan. But what else did I miss about you?

Erin Schaden (01:08.508)
huge seminal thing.

Erin Schaden (01:12.476)
Yep. Well, I currently am a practicing attorney with Fait and Dileema out of Rockville, Maryland, which has been a more recent development, kind of bizarre, kind of moving of Faits, but anyway, but that's exciting. I have way too many cats, big outdoor person, gym person, workout a lot, like to lift heavy shit. Is it okay to cuss? Sorry.

Robert (01:37.695)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Erin Schaden (01:38.42)
Okay, sorry. I never, I always try to respect the house I'm in. I was raised by an army ranger. So, you know, yeah, I've got two kids, divorced for eight years now. So I've done it on my side and I do it professionally. So I feel like I'm well versed in all things divorce.

Robert (01:41.789)
Ha ha!

Robert (01:45.57)
There you go.

Robert (01:56.802)
There you go. And you live out in California, correct?

Erin Schaden (02:01.044)
I do. I do. I live out in California and it's lovely here.

Robert (02:06.666)
Wonderful. Well, look, so several years ago, I went through a divorce and, um, you know, seeing this on your side with divorce coach, I didn't know what that was, but when I went through a divorce, it was okay. What do I need? You know, I was kind of like most men, I was blindsided. And it's like, so what do you need? Well, I need it. Of course, I need an attorney and I wanted a therapist. And then I wanted,

I just wanted a good support staff around me. I did not want yes men. I wanted people that would tell me you're being stupid or hey, you need to look at it this way. That's what I wanted. But what is a divorce coach? How could it help? Like, what do you do?

Erin Schaden (02:50.228)
So, well, divorce coaching is kind of great because it kind of fits into whatever it is the client needs, right? Like I like personally working with people before they ever, like they want to get a divorce or they suspected divorce is on the horizon, but the cat is not out of the proverbial bag yet. And cause there's so many things that you can do to plan and strategize, not necessarily, everyone always gets, especially, I've gotten accused about this a lot with men that I'm plotting to screw men over. And that's never the case. It's, I work with both sides.

And there are so much that you know and are pretty much an expert on your spouse, right? The good, the bad, the ugly, right? And so you can use that information to your advantage to assist you in navigating a path that gets a better outcome for all involved, most especially your children, right? So it's not about strategizing and planning to like take more, get something that you're, I'm gonna really get them. It's not about that, it's about using the information. Like, you know, I've had a...

Robert (03:24.365)
Right.

Erin Schaden (03:46.484)
clients where I've like role played and like we figured out well like okay her husband was really shut down and emotionally and he needed a long time to process and so we took that into consideration and so when she finally went to him and said you know I want a divorce we'd written a letter and the letter was very balanced it was like thank you for all the good times I'm sorry I don't love you like that anymore I really want to have a future relationship with you but it can't be as a married couple.

And she gave him the letter and she told him what was in the letter and she was out in a study and we scripted all of it. And then she left it for him and said, I know that you like to take some time to think about things, but I'm available to talk whenever you're ready, right? And then she left it with him and then she called me and she's like, it's been three days. He hasn't called me. And I said, and she was like, I'm gonna say something to him. And I said, look, you told the man that he were gonna let him have the space that he need. Did you mean it or not? And she's like,

I did, she goes, but it's a lot harder. And I go, yeah, that's your uncomfortability, but do you want this to go well or do you want this to go badly? Like you can push him, right? But we already know what happens when you push him. And that's not a good dynamic for either one of you. And so she waited and it was like eight days. Like they were eating breakfast, they were talking as if everything was, you know. Yeah, she was like losing her mind, right? And I was like, and she'd call me every day, still nothing. And I said, look, he's gonna come back around.

Robert (04:56.497)
So they're just living a normal life in the house.

Erin Schaden (05:05.628)
You've given him concrete evidence that you want a divorce. He's not gonna ignore it forever. I said, give him some space. So on the eighth day he came to her and he's like, okay, have your attorney draw it up. And for the first time in my entire legal career, we drew up the marital settlement agreement. He signed it, no changes. And they worked it all out. It was super easy. They are still friends. And it wasn't like she just walked away from everything. I mean, he gave her 150 grand that she probably wasn't really entitled to, but it was fair.

Because we approached him in a fair and respectful manner, he was able to respond in a fair and respectful manner and they worked it out, right? So they didn't have to have a bloodbath over everything. Like, and it was great. So I think that coaching is about really bringing the person's emotional reality into the same zip code that their legal reality is happening in, right? Because...

Otherwise, what I found is that the tail wags the dog, right? Like the client's emotional reality is dictating their legal reality. And that is not the way that it should be. The legal reality is always going to win. You are only going to get your kids this much. You are only gonna get this much of a property settlement. You are only gonna get this much in support. Like those are pretty much, there's a wiggle room. Like maybe they could fluctuate a little bit here or there, but there's not usually wide swings in that, right? But if you've got a client that believes because their spouse cheated or because...

Robert (06:00.599)
Right.

Erin Schaden (06:25.928)
they were the stay at home parent and they need to be, or something that they're do something, right? That emotional reality dictates and controls the entire litigation and creates people into positions that they just don't need to be in, right? And a coach is there to be able to help you kind of ferret that stuff out at a much lower hourly rate than an attorney is gonna charge, you know? So you can kind of flesh out all that stuff.

and be able to kind of proceed in a much more civilized fashion and get through it and get it over with so you can get onto your, you know, whatever's next.

Robert (06:58.794)
Yeah, I think you said it right there at a much lower hourly rate than an attorney because I think a lot of times the attorneys are having to listen to all this and even though there is a charge for your services, of course, I mean, there has to be, you're definitely saving attorney's fees, I would think.

Erin Schaden (07:15.444)
Absolutely. And the other thing is, is I help, I like to help people find attorneys. Like I'm able to, you know, sometimes men come and they're like, oh no, I want a woman, you know? And so I can make recommendations to attorneys, you know? Sometimes it's a woman. She's like, I only want a woman. I'm tired of men telling me what to do, you know? And we can make accommodations for that. Maybe you need a financial accountant. I can make recommendations for that. We can pull together your team. Maybe you need a financial advisor. We can pull together your team and get everybody kind of cohesive from the word go.

and then work with your attorney. I do this all the time. People will call me and they'll be like, they'll just be emoting, right? And I'm like, okay, so that's a legal issue. So I'm like, okay, let's write that down. That's a question for your attorney, right? And then, so then the attorney, we've processed for an hour and a half. The attorney gets a five point bullet point email that's like, what about this, what about this, what about this, what about this? The attorney's like, oh my God, I love this all day long. Let me give you all the answers to that. Boom, you've just spent an hour and a half on my time, but your attorney's only spent

you know, a point three, 15 minutes, you know? At a differential of several hundred dollars an hour, that stuff adds up on time. And second of all, divorce attorneys, some of them are very good at kind of the death side manner and being able to manage people's emotionality, but many of them are not. They are tactical and they don't like not being used in a tactical manner and they don't have the bandwidth. And it's so ineffective. You have to be able to kind of nicely tell the client like,

Robert (08:14.986)
Right, right, right.

Robert (08:30.766)
Correct. Right.

Erin Schaden (08:43.108)
Okay, our job is to help protect you financially, right? And when you call your attorney every day and you have your script, your divorce story, and you tell your divorce story over and over and over again, you are getting billed every single time. So when you're done, you've now spent $5,000 of your money to tell your divorce story. Was that worth it? Probably not, right? You didn't need to.

Robert (09:06.634)
No, that's a great point. That's a great point. And I know my attorney was very tactical. And she even told me on the front end, that, you know, do you have a therapist? I'm like, yes. And she's like, okay, I'm not gonna be your therapist. I'm gonna help you with the divorce. You do not use me as the therapist because it's gonna cost you a lot more. I'm like, perfect. And we never did.

Erin Schaden (09:23.016)
Right.

Erin Schaden (09:30.748)
Well, here's the other problem that I see with therapists. Therapists are great for dealing with, you know, kind of like trauma, addiction issues, those kinds of things, but therapists are like this to the legal system. They want nothing to do with it. They don't want to be called as witnesses. They don't want to get involved. And oftentimes, like what's great in therapy land is horrible in divorce court and vice versa, right? You're doing things that your attorney's telling you to do and your therapist is going, oh my God, that's terrible. Why are you doing that? You're going to ruin your children forever.

Robert (09:42.867)
Yep.

Robert (09:49.938)
Right. Yeah.

Erin Schaden (09:57.84)
And then you go and you follow the therapist's advice and then your attorney's like, oh my God, you just totally sank our case. We had a great case and look what you just did. This is terrible, don't do that. And that's why I think especially somebody with my level of experience, like I'm able to kind of tell people like with one of my male clients, he gave me permission and I talked to his therapist and she was making all these recommendations. And I was like, well, that's great if it goes like this, but if it goes like this.

the information that you've given him is really bad and it hurts him in this way. And she's like, oh my God, I didn't know that. And she's like, this is so valuable. So I think that having somebody that you, that knows both sides, like, okay, that's a therapist issue. I'm not a licensed therapist. I can't do therapy with you. So take that issue to your therapist and process that in private, confidentially, privilegedly. And now this is an attorney issue. Go over here and process that with your own attorney and with your coach, it's really about kind of

setting the stage about how you want this to go. Who do you wanna be during this process? How do you wanna respond to things? Checking your reactions. I had one client who got blindsided in her divorce. He lied to her for a number of years, was having an affair the entire time. And the thing that we spent the most, and she was doing crazy stuff, like breaking into his apartment and following him and doing all of these kinds of, she knew that they were crazy, but she was in so much pain.

And so I was able to be like, okay, first of all, if you ever think you're gonna settle this, you're not, because you're behaving like a crazy person and sooner or later, everybody has his limits and he's gonna get a restraining order and he's gonna get one granted, right? So stop doing that, don't do that anymore. And then I was able to like listen to her and what she was really most upset about was that all she wanted was to be a wife and a mom. And he took away wife status from her without her consent. And now he was taking 50% of mom status away from her.

right? And she had an amazing amount of grief. And so we started talking about what was really going on, right? She didn't want him back. She could see that the marriage wasn't going well. She could see that he wasn't the best partner for her, but she couldn't let go of it because she was getting removed from these things. And what she felt was a lack of control and power. So we began to work on things that could give her power and control over the things that she had, right? And then, you know, he was probably really grateful, although I'm sure pretty sure he doesn't even know that I exist.

Robert (12:13.474)
There you go.

Erin Schaden (12:17.788)
but he was very grateful that she stopped stalking him. You know, like win-win, you know? Absolutely, absolutely, for sure.

Robert (12:22.018)
behind the craziness is fear. I mean, fear is behind so much, right? I mean, it really is. All right, and so you said it, you do work with men as well as women, so both. You're not just female, okay.

Erin Schaden (12:32.576)
Absolutely. No, and you know, and I've said this for years and I will say that it's true, honestly.

And I'm gonna get so much backlash for saying this, but I'm gonna say it anyway, because I really do believe it's true. For the most part, in my 28 years of experience, men usually walk in, not always, but usually walk in and say, the marriage is over, I want my kids half the time, I want a fair settlement, if she needs to have a little bit more to get me out of this, I'm fine with that, I don't wanna be in protracted litigation, I just wanna move on. Generally speaking, that's how most men walk into a divorce lawyer's office. Women, on the other hand,

I would say more often walk in and are pissed and they think that the litigation process is a place that they're gonna level the playing field or write systemic gender role problems that we've had in our country forever. And that's not gonna happen. And as a general rule, if I had to pick a side that was more retaliatory, my experience, limited as it is, has been that women tend to be more retaliatory.

And I think that that's one of the great things about coaching men is being able as a woman to say, hey, be prepared for this. Like, they'll be like, oh yeah, she's really cool and it's all this, but there's all these tells that if you've done it for as long as I have, that women say certain things and I'm like, ooh, that doesn't mean what you think it does. That means something completely different. You're not talking woman, you're talking man and they do not add up, right? So you've really got to like look at that and do that. And really at the end of the day,

Robert (13:56.218)
Hahaha

Ha ha

Erin Schaden (14:07.26)
It should be designed to help people effectively separate their financial entanglements and co-parent these children that you've brought into the world together so that everybody walks away and hopefully happier, right? And if the bitterness and anger and resentment, if you choose to hold onto that, that's you drinking the poison expecting somebody else to die. Like it's just, it's so counterintuitive.

Robert (14:32.19)
Yeah. And you do kind of walk that line of therapists though. I mean, you really do. I mean, and imagine at times you even see children used as pawns. I mean, I think, you know, yeah, you're talking about retaliatory. I mean, I think that is, unfortunately it's very, very common. Uh, you know,

Erin Schaden (14:40.561)
Often

Erin Schaden (14:48.34)
I have this philosophy, right? So, you know, marriage was the same in our country until the 1950s. Everybody had a 1950s marriage. That was the marriage that we had. Women's liberation movement, society kind of changed. And women looked at men and said, step up, right? You can parent, you can change diapers, you can take paternity leave, you can do all this stuff, right? And much to women's surprise, men did.

Men are more involved in the rearing of their children than they ever about have been in the history of the world unless they were widowed, right? So they're in it, right? They're capable. And judges stepped up and were like, why does, you don't need, the kid doesn't need to stay with you now because it's sick. Dad can walk the floor with a screaming child with an ear infection, it's fine. It's not something in a uterus that gives you the ability to do that, right? Like dads can be compassionate and caring. Like it's all good, right? And so what happened though, is that we women weren't very.

Robert (15:19.98)
Right.

Erin Schaden (15:42.42)
forward thinking in our judgment because we didn't realize that when you guys stepped up to be 50% parents, right? Or 100% parents, 50% of the time, we lost favored status, right? And I'm a woman who went through my own divorce, and I will tell you that even though I absolutely believe what I just said was true, I still had the idea that somehow my biology made me a better parent that I should have more custody, right?

Robert (15:53.143)
Right.

Erin Schaden (16:09.42)
I knew that wasn't necessarily true. My ex-husband probably could have done a very good job. It would have been different than mine. But I walked into it. It is, it is. And kids really need both, honestly. But I think that that's really changed. And I think that we haven't kind of seen a leveling out of that society-wise yet about kind of that men have really stepped up and are capable parents.

Robert (16:15.33)
Right. But that's okay. Yeah.

Yeah.

Robert (16:36.806)
Yeah. And you know, you talk about the court system hasn't either, you know, I was looking at something just a little while ago and, um, trying to find my notes and on custody. Here we go. Uh, with parenting time, the father's share of parenting time nationally, if you average it out, it's like 35%. You look at the States, Georgia, where I am is 23.5% of the time, California, you guys are a little bit better at 32.8.

You know, your low ones, of course, Georgia, Mississippi, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Illinois, those are all in the low 20%. Now you do have about 19 or 20 states that are 50 50, you know, New Mexico, Arizona, Wisconsin, Missouri, Kentucky. Yeah. There's, there's a, there's a list of them. Um, so your view, do you think, how do you.

How do you think courts are starting to perceive it? I mean, you opened that door. Do you think they're coming around? I mean, I do think a lot of this, if you look at it, the red versus blue states, the red states are certainly not as favorable to fathers.

Erin Schaden (17:48.572)
Absolutely, I would agree. I think that most of the time, I think that the two trends that we will see in the next 20 years in family law is that 50-50 is the gold standard. In California where I am, it's the gold standard. Even if the person has addiction issues or something like that, even if they've just gotten out of prison, I mean, they may not get 50-50 right out of the gate, but if they're addressing their issues and it's not affecting the children negatively, they're gonna get a 50-50, and they're not gonna be banned from seeing or participating with their kids.

I think the other trend that we're gonna see is alimony is gonna go away. I don't think that spousal support is gonna be a thing, except in very exceptional cases, it's not gonna be a standard thing. And in California, usually, I mean, you could be the stay at home mom, but let's say you get a job like a year and let's say you're making more, right? Like you leave the marriage, you've been home for 10 years, but now you leave the marriage, you could pay them support.

Robert (18:37.111)
Right.

Erin Schaden (18:42.948)
It doesn't, the fact that you did 10 years with no pay and we're just sitting at home in a community property state, they're gonna look at it and be like, yeah, but now you're ordering more than he is and it's the marital standard. So it's like all this kind of craziness, right? So I think that those are the two trends that we're gonna see is that you're gonna see a decrease in the award of spousal support and I think you're going to see an increase in the number of times that it's a 50-50 custody situation.

Robert (18:43.071)
Right.

Robert (19:07.346)
Yeah. And almost, are you talking about when you say the gold standard too, where you're starting, if some of these States, they start out with the 50 50, and then each party has to prove, I hate to say it that way, but each party proves why that person should not get 50% or why they should have more. Is that

Erin Schaden (19:22.192)
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I think that most of the time, most of my most recent experience has been for like the last eight years while I wasn't practicing law working in California. And really, I mean, it's kind of one of those situations where it's not even a fight. It's like, you're gonna get 50-50. We're just arguing about the schedule. Are we doing a two-two-three? Are we doing a two-two-five? What are we doing? Are we doing a 50, week on, week off?

Robert (19:45.165)
great.

Erin Schaden (19:48.42)
And it really is driven by the age of the kids, the schedules of the kids, the parties, the jobs of the kids, exceptional medical issues that either parent may have. Those kinds of things are what are really driving the custody schedule. But most of the time, it's 50-50. And women don't like it. They don't like it at all. But he's two and he needs to be with his mom. Well, yeah, he does. But he also needs to be with his dad. Oh, and my daughter. Your daughter needs a guy too. I mean, the studies have shown.

Robert (20:15.71)
Absolutely.

Erin Schaden (20:18.332)
that little girls who grow up without a father, without a father figure don't fare well. They have messed up relationships with men and vice versa, right? Like, so both kids need to be, you know, the best, the thing that destroys children absolutely is high conflict divorce, hands down, right? When the two people that they love most in the world hate each other and are willing to spend all of their money fighting and hurting each other, the kids are destroyed almost to never recover, right? I mean, I have seen so much carnage.

Robert (20:24.674)
Yep.

Robert (20:44.63)
Yep.

Erin Schaden (20:46.664)
that the children pay for the parents inability to get along. And most of the time that's driven by personality disorders. High conflict divorce, there's at least one, if not two, personality disorders, driving those kinds of cases. And when I say high conflict divorce, I mean, you're in court almost every week, this taken five years to get divorced. The longest divorce I've ever seen was 11 years, which is ridiculous, but that's the way that it goes, right? And most people...

Robert (21:12.823)
me.

Erin Schaden (21:15.204)
Especially, you know, attorney's fees are a wonderful way to get people to become reasonable who have taken a difficult position because most people are like, yeah, I'm gonna fight you. And then they get a $30,000 attorney bill and then they get a next one that's $50,000. And all of a sudden they become more reasonable. They're like, okay, am I gonna pay for my kids to go to college or am I gonna pay for that attorney's kids to go to college? Which one am I gonna do, you know? And then people are like, okay, this is dumb. Let's not do this.

Robert (21:28.018)
Right.

Erin Schaden (21:40.708)
And that's rational people that don't have personality disorders, right? But people that have personality disorders, they don't care. They just keep going on and on. Okay.

Robert (21:45.826)
Keep on and on and on. So you brought it up. I want to ask, here we go. Do you think there should be more training of judges and guardian at litems as it pertains to personality disorders, you know, mental health, parent alienation? Cause I feel, I feel like there's not, I feel like there's, you know, very little training when it comes to that. And a lot of times, you know, I think the judges are manipulated through our

Erin Schaden (22:03.38)
Absolutely.

Robert (22:14.594)
They're swayed, let's say, through the guardian items and also the parent who's doing the alienation.

Erin Schaden (22:23.796)
So, okay, so I'm gonna set parental alienation over here into the, we'll come back to that in just a second, because that's a huge topic and I have very strong opinions about it. But I think that absolutely, I think that part of the problem, and I don't know how to fix it, but part of the problem is the way that the justice system is set up, right? We need evidence, we need proof. And what we have is you have a situation where there are two people that are in conflict and one person saying it's this and the other person saying it's this.

And the judge doesn't really know how to do that. And out here in Ventura County, they have child recommending counseling, right? So there's a trained mediator that goes in, that does a brief kind of talk with both parents, maybe talks to a few outside collateral, meets with the kids, and then makes a recommendation to the court. Now, lots of people will tell you that's totally unconstitutional and they shouldn't be doing that, but nevertheless, they are. And most of the time, I will say that the Family Court Services people get it right.

Right? They get in there and they get it right. And what I found where dads need help the most is coaching. Right? Because they go in there, they've got big voices, they're bigger, usually the mediators are women. They don't know how to speak negatively about their spouse. They do so with anger, right? Which sets them, you know, they immediately, ooh, threatening angry man, right? Like, and so I've had clients...

We had a client that was, I had a coaching client and he was trying to get 50-50 custody of his daughter. The mother was trying to do a move away for no reason. She didn't even have a job in another state, but she was just trying to move away. So I mean, it was, and he and I worked together about like how to talk. And then we, he and his attorney and I created this great settlement that was amazing. She rejected it, of course. And then they ended up going and having their family court services thing and they did their thing. And the mediator saw.

completely through it because I taught him how to talk to her. I taught him what to say. I taught him how to redirect the conversation back to the issue at hand, which was not whether he was a lovely boyfriend or partner, you know, that didn't have anything to do with the fact that maybe he cheated. Like that didn't have anything to do with custody, right? Like whatever it was. And so he was able to get 50-50 custody and the court and the recommendation out of the family court services was that she take her meds.

Erin Schaden (24:42.62)
and that she see a mental health professional, which is almost never ordered, right? But that's how crazy we were able to get across to the other side by being concrete and giving concrete. I tell people all the time, look, if you've got an issue, like let's say the person drinks too much, you need to go in and say, they drink too much. And here are three concrete examples as to the times that they've drank too much in the last year, right? You don't need to tell them.

Robert (24:45.85)
Right, right.

Erin Schaden (25:07.964)
Like, okay, it started in 1969 and no, you've got to give them something that they can work with. It happened here, it happened here, the kids were involved all three times. Boom, right? It's easy. Like I swear, whoever makes it easiest wins, really. You might make it easy for the mediator, make it easy for the child recommending counselor, make it easy for the judge. That is the case. So I think that men need to learn how to make themselves heard.

Right? I had another client that we got, we picked a private mediator for this. And he was like, he was like the vice president of a bank. Right? And he had two kids that were on the autism spectrum, one severely impacted by it. And he wanted to be a 50-50 dad and he had a stay at home mom, wife. And we worked together over a period of months and he got 50-50 custody. Right? It's all about how you talk about yourself and how you can speak negatively without.

looking like you're just throwing daggers, right? Like, and being able to kind of do that. And it worked, you know? The parental alienation thing is, it's an epidemic, right? It really is. And I think both parties are negatively affected. I have seen women completely, just a parentectomy of them out of their kids' lives because the dads have manipulated

Robert (26:16.482)
Yeah, it is.

Erin Schaden (26:35.324)
bought attention and everything else. And I've seen just as many men completely just removed from their children's lives. And the problem is, is that the court system just doesn't have sophistication. And I think that the judges need to act more swiftly quicker because what ends up happening is that you end up with a status quo, right? You have a case and he's saying this and she's saying this and the judge is like, well, I don't know. And so they send them off for a custody evaluation which takes forever.

Robert (26:57.325)
Right.

Erin Schaden (27:01.136)
right? A year. And then they come back and maybe the custody evaluator does a great job. It is like, yeah, there's definitely hybrid alienation going on here. This is really important, blah, blah. And then it's already been a year that the parent that's alienating has now been in these children's ear for another year. And the children are now terrified of this person. And the dad's never done anything wrong, ever. Maybe he raised his voice.

Robert (27:01.432)
Mm-hmm.

Robert (27:16.962)
Right.

Erin Schaden (27:25.988)
Maybe he didn't agree with mom's lack of discipline. Maybe he didn't believe that you should go and pick the baby up in the middle of the night. Nothing that is actionable, it's just different parenting, right? It's not bad parenting, it's just different, right? And so I think that the court system is just so ill-equipped to deal with that and ends up happening is that by the time you have a hearing or a trial on those issues, the kids have already been so swayed.

You know, that you can't go back and undo the damage. It's horrible. It's heartbreaking. And the other thing is that sometimes it's so unintentional. You know, sometimes it's intended, but sometimes the alienation that people do, it's like, I'm so heartbroken that your dad left us. You know, it's oversharing, right? And it creates this idea that, well, wait, why did dad leave us? And dad didn't leave you.

Robert (27:54.818)
Yeah.

Robert (28:00.914)
Yeah, that is.

Erin Schaden (28:23.324)
Dad left mom, right? That's a co-opting of responsibility. Dad didn't leave you, dad left mom, right? But mom is talking about it in a way that's like, your dad left us, and I'm not really sure what's gonna happen financially. And it's this oversharing or leaving court papers so that teenagers can read or talking about it in front of the kids, or sharing about it or something. It just, it happens so subtly. And kids, I mean, kids are fabulous observers.

Robert (28:24.638)
Right, right.

Erin Schaden (28:52.476)
That's what they do. They sit and they watch, you know? And most of the time, I think, in the alienation cases, except for the really, really egregious ones, the kids figure it out. They see what's going on and they know that dad or mom isn't all bad, right? And, you know, but sometimes, you know, usually the person that's alienating is a very difficult personality that's doing the alienation. And so the kids have to decide like, okay,

Robert (28:52.63)
Oh my gosh, there we are. Yeah.

Robert (29:07.603)
Oh yeah, yeah.

Erin Schaden (29:19.92)
I gotta be with her 60% of the time. I'm just gonna make her happy, right? And I'll pick up my relationship with my dad when I'm a little bit older. Dad'll be fine. Well, dad isn't fine and neither is the kid. But it's so hard to get in there. It's awful. I hate those cases.

Robert (29:37.45)
Wow, that is so good with what you're saying. Without saying too much, I can definitely see that. And that's excellent. Great, great points there. I wanna ask you this, what you've provided so much, as it pertains to custody, what can dads do to put themselves in a better light?

Erin Schaden (30:03.168)
Um, well, be involved, right? Like, I mean, it looks bad when you haven't done anything for years and now all of a sudden you're getting a divorce and you're gonna be like, I'm the dad, I'm gonna be a 50% parent. It's unavoidable sometimes. And I think the court is sophisticated enough to understand that. You know, I think that dads can absolutely put forth the argument, yeah, she was the stay at home parent, right? Now we're getting a divorce.

Robert (30:15.81)
Right.

Erin Schaden (30:30.74)
I let her be the stay at home parent because we were a unit. We were a family. This is, we was a division of labor, right? I was earning the money. She was doing all the household stuff. That was our deal, right? Well, now we're getting a new deal. So I want a chance to do my new deal and I can be a 50% parent. I can do, I can be a hundred percent of parent, 50% of the time is a better way to say that. I can do that. And I want my opportunity. And I think that, you know.

But dads, if you're gonna do that, you gotta actually do it. You're gonna have to go to the parent-teacher conferences. You're gonna have to show up and pick them up from school. You're gonna have to curtail your dating life. I had a client one time that I was like, look, if you wanna be with 20-year-olds and do whatever you're doing, I go, great, don't do it on your custody time. You have 35% custody. Do that on this 65% that you don't have them. But don't bring 20-year-olds over to the house. It only inflames the situation and makes it worse and makes you look irresponsible.

Robert (30:58.604)
Right.

Robert (31:13.279)
Right.

Erin Schaden (31:24.284)
Like date, but if you have a 50-50 custody schedule, honestly, that's such a great thing because you get to be like on it, preparing, right? You're in it, you're with the kids, you can tailor your work schedule better, you can do all the things, right? And then your kids go to the other house and then you're free to be like a single person and have a great life and you can date as much as you want. So I think that that's the first thing, like show up.

Robert (31:42.542)
There you go.

Erin Schaden (31:47.976)
Do the deal, and it's fine if you haven't always done it. There's a narrative there, but you gotta use the narrative to your advantage. You gotta say, yeah, that was our deal. Things are different now. And I'm gonna show up and I'm going to do it. And then do it. I think the other thing that I see that dads have a tendency to do is...

Erin Schaden (32:13.444)
I think that, and this is again, I apologize in advance to everybody that's listening for the gross gender stereotypes that I'm throwing out here, but I'm doing it because it happens a great deal at the time. So.

Dads, men in general in our society, are trained not to talk about how they feel. If you talk about how you feel, except like about football, or you know, you know, I think dads now today would be like, I really love my kids, that's become socially acceptable. But for you to have feelings about things, and so I think that a lot of men end up channeling that into anger, right? They've got all these feelings and they don't know what to do with them, and so it just comes off as they're pissed.

Robert (32:32.919)
Right.

Erin Schaden (32:55.004)
right? And they're angry. And so like if that's you, like if you don't have a lot of emotional intelligence and you don't have a lot of ability to talk about how you feel about things, your feelings actually are really important. And your kids need to see you as a whole well-rounded individual that is not just a breadwinner, that is just not a provider, that is just not a disciplinarian. Like you have a lot of things to bring to the table, but you got to do the inner work on yourself to be able to get that out there, right? Like if you're just flying off into a rage all the time and nobody can talk to you, like that's not really going to help you in a custody battle.

Robert (32:55.264)
Right.

Erin Schaden (33:24.784)
Right? So like do the inner work, go to the therapist, do the inner work, learn how to process those feelings and not have them overwhelm you and get flooded and then end up in default patterns of behavior that you probably inherited from your family of origin. Right? Like, so do the inner work if you need the help. Right? And ask for help. I think that's another thing that's really hard for men. It's like, you guys are expected to know everything. You're not allowed to ask questions, right? You know, people would always say, well, he doesn't know how to change a diaper. And I'm like, well, how many diapers have you let him change?

Robert (33:46.566)
So true. Yep.

Erin Schaden (33:55.504)
I'm like, there's no rocket science to us. We've all tried to change a diaper and had the kids put their foot in the poop, right? Like, I mean, everybody, you know, or pee across and water the plant behind us, like, it's not, like, who cares? Like, they should be able to fail just like we did. Moms, we don't come out, like, just being handed this baby and like, we got it. We never make any mistakes. Parenting is an on-the-job training. Like, we all figure it out as we go. And I think that dads have to be given some latitude for stepping into that if they haven't been.

if they haven't really had an opportunity to do that, either through their own agreement, through their own disinterest or just being prevented. I mean, women can be very controlling, most especially about children, right? Like, I know that's not it, right? I mean, we think we know, we think we know. And a lot of times, guys, we think we know because you aren't bringing anything to the table, right? Well, if you do have things to the table, you're too afraid to take us on.

Robert (34:38.811)
Really?

Erin Schaden (34:54.372)
and make it a conversation. And I don't think it has to be a huge conflict. I think you can just say, well, you know, I am 50% of those kids too, and I have an opinion and it matters. And when as soon as you're ready to listen to it, I'm ready to come back to the table. And then you walk away. It doesn't have to be a big ugly battle. You can just say.

Robert (35:12.662)
Yeah, but that's so hard because it's so hard because it's ingrained in you from early on too. And, you know, let's just say the baby from, you know, once the baby's born, the baby's crying and you're, you have the baby, you can't make the baby stop. And the mom comes up here. I'll, you know, I'll stop a little Charlie, grab it. Boom. Baby stops. I mean, so you're just programmed that way over and over and over again. But, you know, and the other thing you were saying about men.

Erin Schaden (35:30.28)
Boo. Right.

Robert (35:40.706)
Needing to learn we've talked about this in the show a few times about men needing to learn how to be vulnerable As well, and that's so tough. It's so tough

Erin Schaden (35:45.948)
Yeah, it's hard. It is. And you're not respected for it either. I mean, you're called names, right? Oh, you know, John's such a, you know, I'm not gonna use the word, but you know what word I'm gonna use. So, you know, and it does start with a P. And it doesn't need to be like that, you know? It's just, you're not being.

Robert (35:51.794)
No. Yeah.

Robert (35:57.49)
Yeah, starts with a P.

Erin Schaden (36:05.468)
Being vulnerable is a prerequisite for intimacy. And if you can't be vulnerable, you're not gonna have the intimate relationship with anybody, not your partner, not your kids, not any of your friends. Like it is, you absolutely have to be willing to be vulnerable. And it's not like idiot vulnerability where you know somebody's just gonna get ya and you're offering up your whole heart, you know, you're just wide open, right? Like there's degrees of vulnerability, right? And you have to make a decision and be thoughtful about like, how much do I trust this person, right?

how much do I trust this person? And then open up accordingly to that, you know? But I think that, you know, men can, you know, earlier on take a more active role. And most women would be great, like, oh, you wanna walk the floor with a screaming child? Go right ahead, that's fabulous. I'm gonna go back to sleep, right? But oftentimes, you know, society isn't really fair to women in that way either.

You know, if you're not doing the deal and self-sacrificing, you know, it's the standard thing that all of my girlfriends and I, it's like, I'm working, you know, 16 hour days, I'm single parenting, I'm doing all this stuff, and I show up at the bake sale with, you know, stuff that I bought at Vons, and they're like, oh my God, she brought stuff from Vons, it's not even organic or whatever. And then dads show up, they just come, and they're like, oh, it's so great that Robert showed up, and oh, did you see that he brought baked goods from Vons?

It's so cool, you know? And it's just this gender inequity that we're never gonna like, we're beginning to kind of rectify it. It's just gonna take a lot of time, right?

Robert (37:39.058)
Yeah, it's going to. And you know, it's the same thing. I mean, let's, I don't want this to, I'm definitely not down on women. I mean, there's a huge value with, with mom and dad, but I think also there's pressure with the females too, because you know, at that same, going back to that same example, let's, let's reverse it though, where the dad actually can make the baby quiet or the dad can have the baby, you know, the baby will take the bottle from the dad,

Dad's able to burp the baby. And then the mom is the, unfortunately society, ego, whatever, then gets upset about that and it creates conflict that way. So, I mean, there's so much we all have to work through. I mean, there really is.

Erin Schaden (38:20.043)
Look, always self-f-

We've felt that. To me, parenting is not about biology, it's about personality. And honestly, the best parents are the people who have worked through their own trauma. If you wanna be a fantastic dad, work through your trauma and work on your personality defects. If you wanna be a great mom, same thing. Like it really isn't any different for the genders, right? Like we just have a lot of history that we're combating, right? I mean, I think that kids need both.

Robert (38:29.686)
That's great.

Erin Schaden (38:51.752)
that they need a good example on both sides of things. Little girls need to see what a man looks like and how he shows up. And little boys need to see how to become that, right? And little girls need to see moms that are competent and good. I'll never forget, like, I was a stay-at-home mom for a period of time and I was driving my kids somewhere and my daughter, she was in the backseat with one of her friends and she was like seven. And she goes, she's like, well, what are you gonna do? And she's like, oh, I'm gonna be just like my mom and I'm not gonna do much of anything.

Robert (39:22.103)
Oh

Erin Schaden (39:23.113)
I was like, are you kidding me? I get up at 5 a.m. I don't ever sleep in on all day. I'm up until 10 p.m. But in her mind, because I didn't leave the house to go to work for a period of time, her life, right, that's the way she viewed me, was like, eh, she's just kind of a freeloader. Which wasn't true, but that was her perception. And perception drives a lot of things.

Robert (39:33.738)
Right.

Robert (39:42.123)
That's too funny.

Erin Schaden (39:48.984)
I always tell people, so guys, here's the phrase that pays, right? Here's the phrase that pays, from my perspective. If you're going to talk negatively about your spouse, your baby model, whatever it is, like from my perspective, right? She's not a narcissist. From my perspective, her behaviors appear somewhat narcissistic. It's a subtle difference.

but it changes everything, right? Because you guys are bigger than us, generally speaking, right? And most of, there's a lot of women in the helping profession, especially in child custody cases. You guys, if you don't tamp it down, you come across as hostile. You come across as aggressive. You come across as bullying, right? And you're not. You're frustrated, is what you are, is you're frustrated, and you feel like no matter what you do, you're going to get screwed, and you're afraid, right? So like, check that. Like, okay.

Robert (40:31.874)
Right.

Erin Schaden (40:40.476)
I'm afraid, but then check your perception about how you're presenting yourself, right? And be able to be like, okay, from my perspective, she doesn't like me very much. From my perspective, she doesn't think I'm competent because I have a penis. Like from my perspective, like you can say all of the negative things that you need to say, but if you couch it in terms of like, this is my belief, I'm not saying it's fact, I'm saying this is my belief, it gives you instant credibility, right? Because the person's listening to you going, wow.

He's not bad mouthing her. He's talking about things. He's owning that these are his feelings. These are his perceptions. Okay, dad's got some stuff going on. And then you're heard, right? I think that that's the biggest thing that I've heard from men is they just feel, they feel like they have to fight to get what should not, they shouldn't have to fight to get. And then they're just expected to pay for everything, right? And it feels really unfair. And if I was a guy, I would feel the exact same way, right?

Robert (41:14.175)
Right. His feelings.

Robert (41:40.258)
Oh, Aaron, I bet, obviously you were so good at what you do. I wish I had you back then. I mean, seriously, I absolutely, you know, when I was exploring this divorce coaching, like, what is that? And I started looking up on my, okay, well, what is the value there? And I mean, I can see it. I mean, I definitely can. And, uh, I want to, I want to be respectful of your time. I also know that you do some co-parenting coaching as well. All right. We are going in. Go ahead.

Erin Schaden (41:45.505)
Thank you. Ha ha.

Erin Schaden (41:58.397)
and make such a beautiful.

Erin Schaden (42:05.552)
Yeah. So yeah, well, first I wanna say like people, and this is another thing that I think therapists get really wrong is, it's not therapy, okay? People can go to a therapist and do co-parenting coaching, but people tend to go back and they get mired in all the issues that they couldn't resolve in their marriage, right? And you're fighting about, you know, you got me a toaster instead of a diamond ring, you know? And it's like, wait a minute, this doesn't even have any place here, right? But that's what we're fighting about today. So it's like, okay.

Co-parenting coaching or co-parenting therapy should be about issues that are occurring in the here and now, they're interfering in your ability to get your kids to school, their homework done, to their doctor's appointments. Like it's the day-to-day operations of your children's lives that you're having trouble coming to an agreement upon. And that's what you should be focused on. And if you are involved in something where you're talking about stuff that happened 20 years ago, like it's wrong and it needs to be refocused, right? So,

What I really do, whether I'm doing, like working with somebody just about improving their parenting skills individually, or if I'm working with a couple, it's like, we're here to communicate. Like, and I get everybody to agree upon, we aren't bringing up the ancient history. It doesn't have any place here. I have everybody, I do this little visual exercise, which is probably kind of patronizing, but everybody, they still hire me sometimes, but I'm like, okay. So I say this individually, not together, but I'm like, all right, tell me your divorce story.

I want it here, give it to me, let me have it, okay? You got 15 minutes, because we don't have more time than that. And they give it to me for 15 minutes, I'm like, okay. So for purposes of going forward, for the reasons that we're here, I'm gonna give you this jar. And are you willing to put all of that bitterness and anger and resentment into this jar, and we're gonna set it up here on the shelf, you're not getting rid of it, you can pull it down anytime you'd like, but we're putting it right there so that we can move forward and come up with a productive plan for how you're gonna work with this other human being. Right? And then I do the same thing with the other side.

And I'm like, all right. And so then when it comes out, cause it's always gonna come out, right? I'm like, oh my God, your jar fell open. Like let's, we gotta put that genie back in the bottle. Right, like we're gonna put, okay, we're putting it back up on the shelf. All right, let's go. And begin again, you know? And it doesn't work 100% of the time, but most of the time people are able to see like, okay, I've got this stuff going on, right? And in order for me to have a productive co-parenting relationship, I've gotta take the past as I feel it and experience it.

Robert (44:09.179)
Hahaha

Erin Schaden (44:29.456)
and set it aside for a minute to create some sort of new path forward. That's just, you know, you cannot move forward productively and efficiently dragging all of the hurt and bitterness and anger and resentment with you. You just can't, it just won't work.

Robert (44:44.586)
So what about when there's a high conflict or high conflict parent and I'm sure sometimes parallel parenting, is that the only option?

Erin Schaden (44:55.024)
Yeah, yeah, it really is. I mean, and I tell people all the time, like I, look, I don't think anybody should litigate, I really don't. However, I will say in high conflict situations, you should go directly to court. Don't pussyfoot around about stuff, just, you know, you try, right? The court requires it, you've gotta make a good faith effort, you know? I need to have the kids this Christmas instead of next Christmas, because my father's dying or whatever.

Like you send over a letter or you put it on Talking Parents or Our Family Wizard, you get no response. You have your lawyer send over the attorney version letter and then you go to court. Because when you're dealing with a high conflict situation, you are gonna spend more money in the back. Well, yes, you can have Tuesday, but you can't have Wednesday and you can't take the kids to Asheville. It's just gonna be like that. So you do, and most of the time with high conflict situations, especially when you're dealing with the narcissist or the histrionic or the borderline, the only thing they understand is a black robe

So the quicker you look like you're going to get in front of the black robe, the quicker you're likely to resolve this, you know? And nobody wants that. I had a girlfriend and her boyfriend was in this three and a half year awful divorce. And he's like, he called me, he's like, what do I do? And I said, set it for trial. He goes, I don't wanna go to trial. I go, set it for trial. You will never get out of this unless you set it for trial. And he's like, why? And I'm like, your attorneys are not gonna start working hard until they know that they have a trial date. Their backs have to be up against the wall. The fire has to be lit.

then they will start to know their case and they will see their deficiencies and they'll see their strengths. And then they'll start working harder. And that's gonna happen on both sides and the pressure is on, right? And then you will settle, I promise, you will settle. And he's like, you guarantee it? I'm like, well, I'm not representing you and I'm just doing this for a friend. So I mean, yeah, sure, I'll guarantee it. What are you gonna do to me? And of course, that's exactly what happened. They set it for trial and they settled like three days before.

Robert (46:41.803)
Hahaha

Robert (46:50.006)
and leave the kids out. Leave the kids out of it.

Erin Schaden (46:51.92)
Yeah, well, and they were able to kind of agree on custody, you know, and that's, it's an unfortunate reality, but you know, it's kind of like, if you really love your kids, you know, take 35 instead of 50 to end the fighting, right? Because chances are, and this is the thing that I've seen over and over again, is you know, there are those cute little babies, you know, and everything, and then they're gonna turn into like very surly teenagers, and then you're gonna wonder why you fought so hard to keep them, you know? You're gonna be like, go to your parents. Oh no, not at all.

Robert (47:04.45)
Yeah.

Robert (47:18.053)
You are not you are not speaking from experience are you? It's just what you've heard.

Erin Schaden (47:21.884)
not me with a good time. You want to go live with your dad? Let me buy the ticket. No, I'm just kidding. But the thing is, is that, you know, kids speak with their feet. So once a kid gets to be, depending on the child, 13 or 14 years of age, you know, they've, especially if the divorce happened when they were like three or four and they've seen all of this stuff, the kids are going to, you know, most teens are going to pick the parent who's most lenient to live with because they're teenagers.

and buys them the most things. I mean, that's just, they're little consumers and capitalists and that's what they want, you know? But most of the time, the kids are able to say, and then what are you gonna do? Call the police every Friday night to effectuate your custody order? You know, sooner or later, the kids are the ones dictating the schedule anyway, and there's not a lot you can do with it.

Robert (48:04.238)
That's true. Unless the unless the case of like you were talking about earlier with

Robert (48:12.231)
they're almost guilted or shamed into staying with that parent and they feel like dad or mom, whoever the other parent is, is okay and they'll just catch up with them later. But yeah, you're exactly right.

Erin Schaden (48:22.78)
But even that flips in adolescence, right? Because the little child, but kids go through stuff and they're like, you know what? I don't like either one of you. And no, I'm not doing that anymore. And they develop a backbone and a spine and a voice that they didn't have when they were seven, that they do now when they're 15. And some kids don't have it. Again, it's a personality thing.

Robert (48:25.514)
Yeah, it does.

Robert (48:43.586)
True.

Erin Schaden (48:47.688)
You can have one family and you can have three kids and you have one kid that's aligned with mom, one kid that's aligned with dad, and one kid that doesn't like either one of them. It just, it really depends on personality and the dynamics in those particular relationships, I think.

Robert (49:00.806)
You have so much knowledge and I so much appreciate you being on. And again, I want to, I want to respect your time, but I want to ask you something, um, the holiday seasons, we just had Thanksgiving, we have Christmas coming up, co-parenting during the holidays, what, give me some tips, uh, you know, give some tips for dads, for parents in general, like how can they make it best, not for them, but for the kids?

Erin Schaden (49:29.396)
Um, be present. Be present. I think, enjoy the time that you get, even if it's not what you want. I mean, here's the thing about custody, guys, it's always changeable, almost always. Nothing's 100%, but you can always change it. And maybe this year, maybe 2023 was not your year and you got totally screwed on the holidays. 2024 is a whole nother time. Like you can do a lot of remedial work.

to remedy whatever reason that was given as to why you couldn't have whatever, right? And I think that, you know, you're able to use the gross inequity that you got this year next year to better your situation. But, you know, be present. Try not to engage in the whole competitive, I'm gonna buy you this, I'm gonna, dad's getting, you know, Disneyland, dad, right? You know, oh, I'm gonna take you to Disneyland, I'm gonna take you to Costa Rica, I'm gonna do all these fun things. Well, you know, yeah, if your resources allow you to do that and it's great and you're creating memories with your kids, awesome.

Robert (50:16.238)
That's so big.

Erin Schaden (50:28.368)
Right? But, you know, your kids are not gonna respect you if you're just buying them off. They won't, right? And kids need boundaries. They hate it, they rebel against it, they fight us against it, they tell us we're horrible parents because we do it, but kids need boundaries, right? And we have to be the rock of which they break themselves against, right? Like, and it's uncomfortable. And in a divorce situation, it's really hard because you're terrified. You know, I know I was like, oh my God, I can't hold this line because if I do, then they're gonna say that they're gonna go live with their dad and that's gonna kill me.

Robert (50:38.85)
They want it.

Erin Schaden (50:57.788)
Well, I had to get to a point where I was like, well, maybe that's what's best. You know, maybe I'm not the best parent. Maybe it would be better off for them, right? Like I can't just live in fear all the time that my parenting is going to cause them to say, you know, screw you mom, I'm out of here, you know? So be present, be genuine, just be yourself. Like, you know, you brought this kid into the world, it's half, you know, most of the time, unless you've used a surrogate, like it's half you, right? Like...

Be present and just enjoy them and take the time that you have and make the best of it, you know? And the other thing I'd say is don't over promise. Next year it's gonna be totally different. Well, maybe it's not. And kids get really let down by that kind of stuff. You know, you don't have to prove your worth as a dad. It is inherent, right? And I think a lot of men get caught up in this like, I have to prove myself, I have to prove myself, I have to prove myself. Well, your proof is you just show up. Just show up, be you, you know?

Robert (51:36.016)
Yeah.

Erin Schaden (51:53.508)
Set appropriate boundaries, be an appropriate parent, try to communicate non-costically with the other person. And if you do, for God's sakes guys, if the other person does you really wrong, don't put it in a text message. If you really gotta say something nasty, call them. Don't put it where it's evidence, right? In most states it's illegal to record, so unless you're afraid for your life. But I always tell people there's the 24-hour rule and then there's the 48-hour rule.

Robert (52:07.196)
I'm out.

Robert (52:10.862)
Ha ha ha.

Erin Schaden (52:23.744)
If you are activated, right, and you're reacting, don't respond for 24 hours. Unless it's a matter of life and death, you don't respond for 24 hours. And if you're really sure in 24 hours you should respond, you wait 48, right? You just give yourself some breathing room because I see men so often, you go off half-cocked, right? Like, and you say this thing and you just, and then in court they're like, did you really call her a blah, blah? I mean, an attorney at my old firm won a whole custody case

I mean, he called her so many expletives and he read them all into the record. And the male judge that was sitting there was just like, you will not disrespect the mother of your children like that again. And if I ever hear you talk about her like that again, we had a client that he put a particular name, he changed the name on his phone to be that, well, I mean, it was F-ing C word, right? And so every time.

Robert (52:57.987)
Oh my gosh.

Robert (53:08.334)
Good for him.

Robert (53:17.188)
Oh my gosh.

Erin Schaden (53:18.908)
the phone would ring and it would be her, that's what would pop up and the kid was eight and he saw it, right? That's bad. I know it felt good for him and she was, she was not a nice person, right? I get it. I understood his frustration, right? But when he had to get in front of a judge and be accountable to the fact that those were the words that he was using to call his ex-wife and the mother of his kid and his eight-year-old saw it, like not a good day for him, right? So like keep that stuff in check, right? Like give yourself time to process it.

Robert (53:24.606)
Oh my god.

Erin Schaden (53:48.9)
I tell everybody also, look, if you're in the middle of litigation and you got a lot of big feelings, there's this app, it's called Day One. It's like 30 bucks. It'll transfer across all your devices. Create a journal that says for attorney, client, privilege only, and then write down all your nasty stuff there, and then it's protected by your attorney, client, privilege. And then it's not discoverable.

Robert (54:06.83)
There you go. That's smart. You know, you were talking about the quality time and I was asking my sons the other day, we were talking about different trips we've gone on. And we've been on several nice trips and we've gone on just some regular trips as well. It was so interesting to hear their favorite trips were some of the spur of the moment, cheap.

We didn't have anything special planned. It wasn't any big activity. It was really just the three of us, or where I was able to have one-on-one time with each one. And so I think, you know, you going, you know, when you were mentioning that, I think that's so important for dads to remember too, is it's the quality of the time. Being present, put your phone down, love them. You know, the quality time, be vulnerable with them. I mean, you touched on that earlier.

Erin Schaden (54:53.908)
Exactly.

Robert (55:01.654)
You know, sharing, I see that with my sons is, I worry a lot about them expressing and feeling comfortable with expressing their feelings. And if I express mine, then it's sort of opening up the door for them to feel safe to express theirs. And definitely does.

Erin Schaden (55:19.28)
Yeah, absolutely. The only caveat that I would say to that is be careful about sharing about your feelings about the divorce or that, you know, or their other parent. It just, it puts them in a weird situation and it makes it difficult when it doesn't need to be. But sometimes kids want to know, you know, I had a girlfriend who's, you know, that was...

Robert (55:30.314)
Are there other parents? Yeah.

Erin Schaden (55:47.676)
Bad stuff happened in their marriage and she called a relative and was like, and she's like, I wanna know. And she's like, are you sure? Are you sure you really wanna know? Like, because once you know, you can't unknow and that's maybe something that you don't wanna do. And, but I think that, you know, I think exactly what you said, be present, be available, you know, talk about how you feel about stuff, make it a safe environment for them. And I think so much like, everybody's lives are so structured today.

Robert (55:59.714)
Right.

Erin Schaden (56:15.78)
I think unstructured time where you're just like, what are we doing? I don't know, what do you want to do? Do you want to go to a movie? Okay, let's go to a movie. Is so helpful and kids really need that because they're going to school and they've got soccer practice and they've got band and then they've got drawing class and then they've got Kung Fu and then they've got all these things. And it's like, kids, I know I feel that way. Like, what do you want to do on Saturday? Nothing. And am I going to sit on the couch all day Saturday? No, but am I going to...

Robert (56:19.862)
Yeah.

Robert (56:37.398)
Yeah.

Erin Schaden (56:42.24)
hey, do you want to go on a hike? Like, how about we go play tennis? How about we go do this? And it's so nice, right? So, you know, make the best of the time that you've got and trust that if you do the work, you know, most of the time you can right a bad situation.

Robert (56:59.526)
Aaron, thank you. And I want to have you back. And I know really, I appreciate you being on and I want to have you back. And, um, you know, in the future, I definitely do. And I cannot thank you enough for your time. Look, I know, um, again, I wish I'd had you several years ago. How can people find you? Cause I'm sure people will want to reach out. How can they find you, you know, website, phone number, Instagram, all of that, please provide that.

Erin Schaden (57:01.588)
Thank you! Thanks for having me!

Erin Schaden (57:26.96)
Yeah, yeah, erinshaden.com is my website. Erin E. Shaden is the handle on Facebook and Instagram. And my phone number is 805-758-8445. So you can get ahold of me, you know, carrier pigeon, whatever, you know, whatever way, whatever way works. Yeah, I'm happy to help. And you know, there's so much that can be gained through some forethought and some planning, you know. And you know, because most people that are going through a divorce,

They don't have any idea. It uses a different language. It's kind of like being dropped off in Africa, in a town that doesn't speak any English, and it has completely different customs, completely different conversations. Everything is different, and then being expected to like excel, right? Well, what would most people, if we were dropped off in a small village in Africa, what would you do? You would find the one person that spoke some English, and you'd begin to talk to them about how, okay, what are the customs? Am I allowed to do this? Where do I live?

How do I get food? You know, like, and you'd begin to use those kinds of things. And a divorce is really like that. You're dropped off on this completely like other planet and get somebody who has the lingo, get somebody who has the language, get somebody that has some experience that can guide you. It's not gonna be forever. You know, I don't have clients calling me forever, right? I usher them through a difficult period of time and then they're on their way. And then I've done my job well, right? It's not to create this dependence that they stay forever. Like my job is to help you educate yourself.

Find out what you don't know, get you in touch with the people that you need to build your team, and then off you go, right? And hopefully into a better future for you and your kids.

Robert (59:02.854)
Aaron, thank you. I really appreciate it. And yeah, thank you. And look, good luck this weekend with the Noles and also with the 49ers. And hopefully, the Noles win and they make it into the playoffs. So there you go. I know. That's good.

Erin Schaden (59:04.592)
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Erin Schaden (59:13.064)
Fingers crossed.

Oh, I hope so. It'll be so great. Well, number four. So I'm very excited about that.

Robert (59:22.89)
Well, look, thank you all for listening to that as podcasts. You can find us on Spotify and Apple podcasts as well as on YouTube and Instagram. And don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button so you don't miss any episodes and we will see you guys next time.