Paul Summers Jr Interview

Paul Summers Jr., an author and longtime successful musician, shares how he navigated addiction, recovery, and the challenges of being a father. Growing up in Las Vegas, Paul found solace in music and played in various bands, including a punk rock band. However, his addiction to drugs and alcohol took a toll on his relationships and parenting. After hitting rock bottom, Paul sought help and embarked on a path of recovery. He fought for custody of his daughter and learned to navigate the legal system. Through perseverance and support, Paul rebuilt his life and became an advocate for fathers in similar situations. In this conversation, Paul Summers Jr. shares his journey as a father fighting for custody of his daughter and navigating the challenges of the legal system. He discusses the harm his daughter experienced, the reporting process, and the involvement of Child Protective Services. Paul also talks about being awarded sole custody and the difficulties he faced in receiving child support. He emphasizes the importance of emotional instincts and protecting his daughter. Paul shares his experiences in the courtroom and the need for accountability. He concludes by promoting his book, Hide & Seek, and website, www.paulsummersjr.com, as resources for other fathers and addicts in recovery.

Transcript

Robert (00:01)
Hey everyone and welcome back to the dad to dad's podcast and today I have the pleasure of interviewing Paul Summers. Paul welcome to the show.

Paul Summers Jr. (00:11)
All right, Robert, thank you. Thank you so much for having me on.

Robert (00:15)
Paul, you've got a very interesting story. You reached out and we were talking and wanted to definitely gets you on. But again, interesting story as well as struggle throughout your life from fighting addiction, getting sober, which 16 years, I believe, is that correct? Congratulations on that. And then also a long...

Paul Summers Jr. (00:34)
Yep, 16 years.

Robert (00:40)
custody battle or, you know, where you've had to go through the court system, the family court system and the struggles you had with that with, from a dad's point of view, a father's point of view, uh, which you actually wrote a book about when we'll go into that as well. But first I wanted to hear about you. I wanted to hear about Paul growing up kind of where you grew up, what your life was like, what you were like as, you know, as a kid, did you play sports? I know. And obviously from the bat, from your background,

You have a musical past and present as well, but just tell me more about you



Paul Summers Jr. (01:14)
Alright, well thank you Robert. Grew up in Las Vegas, Nevada. It was the kind of, it was a small town then, you know, and it was kind of, it wasn't the entertainment capital of the world like it is now, where lots of young people, you know, go and thrive. It was, according to Mitch Ryder of the, Mitch Ryder Detroit Wills, he had an interview in Playboy Magazine, I believe, and he said that, excuse me, it was a place that performers go to die.

And that was kind of true when I was growing up. So, yeah. So it was like the place where children were not to be seen nor heard. So, um, you know, we, uh, we kind of. Did not embrace the gambling, the gaming industry so much as locals, you know? Um, so yeah, growing up, I played sports, I ran track. Uh, the 800 was my, was my race. Uh, yo, yeah.

Robert (01:46)
was true. Yeah.

That's a monster.

Paul Summers Jr. (02:14)


Uh, definitely. Um, I went to, went to state. I finished fourth in state. So, uh, yeah. So, you know, I was very into it. I, uh, never pursued a scholarship, unfortunately. Um, but what happened right around my senior year was I started getting good on the guitar. I got into a band and it was kind of like a, kind of a rock slash punk band. And.

Robert (02:20)
Very nice.

Paul Summers Jr. (02:42)
that kind of attention, you know, was like, oh, you know, forget having a future wrapped around scholarly things, which I was a good student. So I more embraced rock and roll and playing music and going out. At 19, I'm already playing clubs and drinking.

Robert (02:58)
Right.

Is there anybody you are any bands you are modeling yourself after?

Paul Summers Jr. (03:13)
At that time...

Robert (03:15)
playing cover for who was.



Paul Summers Jr. (03:18)
True, so we had a wide variety of stuff. We like the, I mean, everything from, you know, Sex Pistols and Ramones to Judas and, oh, that's a great, just kind of more like pre-alternative I guess. You know, I mean, that was the stuff that was there. And yeah, then it became more about,

Robert (03:40)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (03:48)
Gosh, bands like The Cramps and like U2 was kind of alternative at that time, you know, compared to The Rock that was, you know, on the radio. Yeah, so anything that was kind of edgy and driving, that was the stuff that we liked to play. Got into a punk band called AWOL and just a little plug real quick, my guitar that I played in that band.

It is now on display at the Las Vegas Punk Rock Museum, which is a, it's an international punk rock, you know, museum for punk rock music. So pretty proud of that. Yeah.

Robert (04:29)
That's impressive. That's very impressive. I can't say that I have anything of mine in any sort of, you know, museum, hall of fame, any of that. So that's, that's very impressive.

Paul Summers Jr. (04:39)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's such an you know, the guys that put it together, they decide to pay homage to the local scene in Vegas, you know. And so it's featured there for I don't know how long, however long they have it up, but it's really cool that they're honoring the local because we had a really thriving local scene, you know, we, we had clubs and all the touring bands of that time, you know, bands like Dead Kennedys and

Robert (04:59)
That's great.

Paul Summers Jr. (05:09)
and Offspring and Black Flag, Agent Orange, all the old school punk bands, they all came through Vegas and they all pretty much thought we had a great scene. The clubs didn't like us so they didn't like having us so much and so we ended up doing a lot of our gigs out in the desert with a generator.

Robert (05:30)
Why did the clubs not like having you guys?

Paul Summers Jr. (05:32)
Just because we were punks, you know, like, you know, we had that... getting rowdy, exactly, yeah, you know. They would have much rather had, you know, disco or metal or something milder, I suppose, you know. Yeah, we had a lot of energy to burn off. So, you know, we had fun. You know, it was just, you know, it was culture shock for a lot of people who were older or, you know, more...

Robert (05:35)
Yeah, getting rowdy and stuff or what? Yeah.

Ha ha.

Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (06:01)


status quo, I suppose, you know, people slam dance in and wearing wild clothes and, you know, everything that's the norm today, I suppose, you know, colored hair. Yeah. I mean, we, we did it as a necessity because we, you know, we had all, we had all this youth energy and needed a place to, to vent it all. So, you know, going out in the desert with a generator, I mean, there's no rules. You just, you know,

Robert (06:03)
Yeah, yeah.

And that's pretty wild going out in the desert. I mean, now there's festivals, right, that do that. And you guys were kind of ahead of your time. Or ahead of the time, yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (06:31)
The thing that was hard as a musician is you had, you know, half inch of dirt on all your gear. And by the end of the night, but.

Robert (06:38)
Yeah, but at least you have to shut off at 12 o'clock or 2 o'clock, 2 a.m. or anything like that. I mean, you can continue playing however long you want.

Paul Summers Jr. (06:46)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, so it was very free, a very free environment, you know. And so...

Robert (06:49)
Yeah. So how many people like your largest gig? How many? How many is Like how many people do you think were there?

Paul Summers Jr. (06:57)
Probably like 600 or so Yeah, yeah, I mean it was We opened up for black flag and that was I know there was over 600 people at that show. So Yeah

Robert (07:09)
I think there's very few people that haven't, or very few guys that haven't at least for a moment thought about or dreamed about being up on stage and being, whether it's the lead guitarist, the singer, the drummer, something like that, and you actually got to do it. That's pretty impressive.

Paul Summers Jr. (07:27)
Yeah, sure. I mean, and you know, the whole punk kind of stigma was, it was anti-rock star and everything, you know, but yeah, there's, I mean, it's such a thrill to, you know, to move people, you know, to play music that moves people in any direction really. You know, so yeah, I mean, I was blessed to be able to do that. And that as my guitar skills advanced,

I got into more psychedelic, jammy bands. I played some pretty good sized shows. You know, played open for people like Al Green and Julian Lennon and like at the Hard Rock, played that. So I think the most people I played in front of was 6,000 or something like that. So, you know, done some big shows and stuff. Yeah, yes. You know, so proud to say that's in my background.

Robert (08:18)
Wow.

Yeah you have.

Paul Summers Jr. (08:27)
In my book, I wanted to reflect that a little bit. So some of the people doing endorsements are people that, you know, I have friends, have made friends over the years that are more known names, you know, that, that are just great musicians and artists. And it's not all just a literary field, you know, so, yeah, so that's a, that's a big part of my, big part of my past, big part of my history, even part of my present.

It's also part of my leanings into addiction. So, you know, that was.

Robert (09:03)
Before we go into addiction, you were sharing with me before we started recording with music, how music is still involved in your life. Tell me a little bit about that as well.

Paul Summers Jr. (09:15)
Yeah, and kind of blending the two together in a way. So there's the raising my daughter by myself aspect. When I got remarried and we'll go to this, but there was no time for music. Being a full-time dad, full-time sorry, excuse me. Let me do one thing real quick.

Okay, we can edit that out, right? It's still, no. Yes. Okay. When,

Robert (09:45)
Yeah, that's all that that's from all the sand out in the desert, all the dust out there.

Paul Summers Jr. (09:58)
so I wasn't able to really do music for years, probably almost a decade really. I still played occasionally and picked up some gigs here and there, but it definitely wasn't my focus. My focus was on the kids.

Now that the kids, two of the kids have moved out, you know, well, two things. One is music and addiction. I sort of blended them together in my mind. You know, when I got clean, I sort of blamed music, you know? It definitely enabled a lot of harmful behaviors, unhealthy behaviors.

So it was kind of good to be away from it, but I never stopped writing songs and playing. And you just come to realize it's in your blood. There's nothing you can do to change it. So I embraced that finally and I started thinking, well, what can I do? What can I do to help other addicts, alcoholics? And I came across Sound Healing. And...

I started reading about the science. There's all this new science in the last 20 years around sound and how it affects our bodies. And I always knew that, but I could never prove that. You know, I mean, to me, music saved my life, you know, in the times, you know, my darkest periods, it got me through just, you know, my emotional bond to song or sound. And now there's studies that are proving, you know, the ways...

I used to tell people, this is how it makes me feel, don't you feel that? And people are like, I mean I do, but... And now it's proven, you know? And anyway, so I ended up getting certified as a sound healer, which is different from a music therapist, but a sound healer. And what I've been doing is writing this material that are sound frequencies that are designed to help addicts go through...

the anxiety of withdrawals. And sometimes, you know, I believe that alcoholism and addiction is a disease, and our thoughts can be affected by sound. And so this is a way to uplift, clarify, basically put at ease. So I have a pseudonym.

Uh, which is Pablo Varanus and that is my name is Spanish. So it's up on, I have music up on all the major platforms and I'm putting more up all the time, but, uh, so that's the direction I'm going with music now. And I love it because I, it's, uh, unrestricted creativity, you know, it's, it's findings, finding soundscapes that are really like.

ambient and atmospheric and it's the kind of stuff that I listen to relax and so.

Robert (13:12)
I have just, I've never understood people where music isn't a part of their daily life. I have never understood that because I mean, whether it's in the morning and I'm fixing, you know, breakfast for the boys and they come downstairs and they'll tell me like, dad, there's no telling what you're going to have on. I mean, I can have from, you know,

Paul Summers Jr. (13:20)
Same.

Robert (13:37)
Snoop Dogg to Dr. Dre, Eminem to Morgan Wallen, Luke Combs, Travis Tritt. I mean, I can, you know, I might have, I have Prince on at times. I mean, it just, you know, old R and B to, you know, old to, you know, YouTube I occasionally play, um, just really just kind of runs the.

Paul Summers Jr. (13:44)
Yeah.

Robert (14:01)
runs the gamut and, uh, and you know, you talk about what the moods you're in and how certain songs can speak to you. I think we are drawn to that. Aren't I mean, look, you look at country music a long time ago. It was always talking about either getting fired, getting, you know, divorced or something like that. I mean, it's changed, but yeah, exactly. But everybody used to kind of be drawn to that. Um, that's definitely changed, but, um, yeah, I mean, I, I can see that. I just, I can't.

Paul Summers Jr. (14:14)
Yes.

losing your dog.

Robert (14:29)
I just can't understand people that don't have it a part of their life. I mean, I really, and whether that's to amp yourself up, whether that's, you know, you're feeling down and, you know, something's kind of speaking to you there or whatever it may be. I mean, it's a.

Paul Summers Jr. (14:42)
yeah, it definitely affects moods. My wife is, and kids are often commenting, like, how do you know words to all these songs? It doesn't matter what era it's from. I mean, not so much the 2010s on, I suppose. I don't know all those lyrics, but yeah, I mean, I just have always been a person.

Robert (14:45)
Yeah.

That's amazing. I think that's special. Like my youngest at times will talk in lyrics. And all of a sudden he'll say something like, what are you, like what? Why does that sound familiar? And then he'll tell me, you know, the song that's from, ah, but he, and he's always been able to do that, always. And, but yeah, that's pretty interesting. I think that's something special to be able to, you know, to remember lyrics.

Paul Summers Jr. (15:19)
Oh, no, that's great.

Yeah, yeah, I've definitely noticed the trend in music too towards playlists, you know, it's not so much somebody puts an album out anymore.

Robert (15:34)
Hey, let's go into, you know, you were talking about with the band and I imagine you were exposed to a lot. You kind of alluded to that. Um, you know, sure. You had your groupies and all of that. And at the same time, um, you were probably faced with a lot of things that.

Paul Summers Jr. (15:43)
Oh, yeah. Yes.

Robert (15:56)
say people that aren't in bands are faced with and you know, whether it's drugs, whatever it may be. And let's, you know, I kind of wanted to go into your addiction as well, how that started and how that really grabbed ahold of you and then start going through your life.



Paul Summers Jr. (16:09)
Sure. Yeah, I mean, I think my story is similar to a lot of alcoholics where the first time they ever drank, they got, you know, so drunk that they were throwing up and everything. That was me, you know, at I think 13 or 14. My brother got me drunk. And because he wanted  a drinking buddy, I think. But anyway, yeah. And then

Robert (16:12)
Excuse me.

Paul Summers Jr. (16:35)
playing clubs at nineteen you know now i'm drinking at nineteen you know i don't play every night of the week so whatever night i do play it's a party and it's a party to till you drop kind of thing and so that would sort of set the foundation uh... you know again i believe that it's a disease so the you know the saying one is too many a thousand ever enough and that was me i wasn't the guy that could have two beers and be cool

You know, it was like, once I had that first beer in me or that, you know, that first hit of anything, I knew like two or three or four of those make me feel better. You know, I just knew it, you know. So I had to chase it, you know, and I always, you know, the results were most commonly, you know, getting sick or, you know, not being myself anymore, getting into even worse behaviors. And so, so yeah, I mean, it was.

Robert (17:16)
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (17:32)
Definitely a life of indulgence, you know, being a musician, you know, seeing, I mean, Vegas itself, you know, you're seeing people sort of acting in their most primal ways, you know, it's a city of indulgence. And then to be, you know, kind of, you know, put on a pedestal as a musician and the things that you can indulge in, you know.

Robert (17:45)
Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (17:59)
Without restriction basically that probably didn't help. Yeah, I don't I don't think that I don't think that was all that healthy for me but I didn't seem to mind and You know until it was so noticeable. I was just like, you know, I got to leave I got to leave here I every time I try to stop doing Depending on what the drug was, you know, you know booze or meth or pills. I just

Like I couldn't seem to stop running into people that were offering me stuff, you know?

Robert (18:33)
What was your drug of choice?

Paul Summers Jr. (18:35)
It kind of changed over the years. I mean, it started out as alcohol. Um, and then the alcohol, I took a hiatus from, I'll say, uh, on a, uh, one night I was playing a club and I, uh, got into some got into it. I just, it found its way to me. Now it was one of those, Hey bro. It was Christmas Eve.

And, you know, I'm at this bar and in Vegas the bars don't close. They stay open all night. And, you know, we're having kind of like this Christmas party with my bandmates. And then somebody breaks out some cocaine. And next thing I know, it's 630 in the morning and I'm supposed to go to my family, my family's house for Christmas. And, and the bartender, he's like, bro, you know, don't you have somewhere to be?

Robert (19:10)
Right, right.

Paul Summers Jr. (19:34)
And I'm just like, what? Oh, shoot, yeah. You know, I'm sitting there milking a Jack and Coke, you know, and I go to the girlfriend I had at the time, like her apartment, our apartment, you know, and I don't want to like let her know I'm coming in at seven in the morning. So I lay on the futon and five minutes later, she comes, you know, I'm laying there spinning and five minutes later, she's like, oh, you're already up, oh great, you know, let's go. They're waiting for us, you know.

Robert (20:03)
Oh my gosh.

Paul Summers Jr. (20:04)
I get to my parents' house and for three hours I'm throwing up in front of my brother's and his wife's kids. It was a really big deal to my girlfriend at that time to go to her family's house after my family's house because her mom and dad were in this ugly divorce. They agreed because her and I were living together and we had what was appearing to be a solid relationship. They agreed to meet for Christmas.

Robert (20:12)
Ugh.

Paul Summers Jr. (20:34)
And I can't even, I don't even make it because I'm, I'm too drunk. And so that was, uh, you know, a big enough event for me to just feel so disgusting in myself, you know, that I, so I quit drinking, but then I got into so many other things and that, uh, that became, so that was the first drug of choice, uh, the next one was meth. And so, uh, meth sorta took over,

Robert (20:37)
Oh my gosh.

Paul Summers Jr. (21:01)
um,

my last years in Vegas and that was the one where I just couldn't seem to stop all my play places and play people were everywhere. And so I moved to Portland, Oregon, which I live close to now, but I moved to Portland, Oregon in the mid-90s and because I thought, you know, this is going to be it. I'm going to be done. I won't have this crap around me. I've licked alcohol.

And now I'm going to lick meth, you know, it took three weeks to find the meth dealer in the neighborhood, you know, because we all, we know we like, Oh, that, that guy, he's probably, he's probably knows where to get some. And sure enough, I mean, back running gunning that turned into a gradual pill addiction also. So, uh, the opioids became a drug of choice, especially, you know, when Oxycontin came out, um, it was like.

To me, it was like how people get with crack, or not crack, with cocaine, you wanna keep doing it and doing it and doing it. However they designed that drug, that's what it did that made it different from other opiates, for me at least. And so...

Robert (22:06)
Mm-hmm.

Was this pre, was this pre-fentanyl?

Paul Summers Jr. (22:18)
Yeah, pre-Fentanyl. I never tried Fentanyl, thank God. You know, thank God. Yeah. I might not be here. I mean, yeah, I'm not...

Robert (22:21)
Thank goodness you might not be here. I mean, that's horrible. And now they're mixing it with so many other drugs as well.

Paul Summers Jr. (22:32)
I have a guy that I work with, his stepson. He was just out with his buddies. You're hearing these stories constantly now, or way too many times now. They thought they were going to go get some Vicodin, some regular prescribed stuff, and it looked exactly like that. He died. I mean, he overdosed in front of his friends. The horror, I don't know, it's just horrible.

Robert (22:56)
Yes.

Yeah, it is. It is. I mean, you hear that and...

So, so many cases of I mean, I'm in Atlanta and, you know, it's not every, I don't hear it every day, but you hear it way too much. What's way too common. The deaths of high school kids and such. And it's the same thing you're talking about. I mean, they'll think a pill you know, whether it's a Xanax, whatever it may be. And little did they know it was laced with fentanyl and, uh, you know, it's the end of a life, it's just horrible.

Paul Summers Jr. (23:18)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Robert (23:36)
Um, okay. So, so let's, let's keep going. Let's keep going through that as well as, uh, meeting your former wife and.

Paul Summers Jr. (23:45)
Yeah, okay. So I was always one to keep part-time jobs. I, you know, always set, I always pushed aside career jobs because I always wanted to make it in music. So I had a part-time job at a photo studio and that's where I met my daughter's mom. Excuse me.



She was about 20 and I was about 38, so we had a big age difference there. And, um... I was still playing a lot and working part-time. Anyway, uh, at that point, the opioid addiction had pretty much set in, still doing meth, still wasn't drinking, however. And we got into a relationship, we got pregnant, and, uh...

and this is about the point where the book starts so uh... i wanted to have a kid and i believe she wanted to be the person to give me a kid uh... she had her own addiction also mostly just to pot though you know and anyway the i think that

struggles, the hardship of parenting, the difficulties. It was a lot for us, so we sought refuge in getting high. And I'd say about three years into raising our daughter, the drugs had become an everyday doing. I would say we lost a house. We actually, you know, I'm pretty savvy, I guess, you know, they said.

They say never underestimate the resourcefulness of an attic. I was able to sell the house before we lost it, but we were, I think, $40,000 or $50,000 in credit card debt because we're going to the ATM and pulling out money for dope. It was a very dark period. Now we're no longer homeowners, so we're in an apartment. I can't find a way to stop. I want to stop so bad.

especially at that point the opiates because they were daily now you know now there there's that monkey the month you know i'm not even getting high anymore i'm just i'm just

Robert (26:20)
So you knew it had a hold of you and you were wanting to stop.

Paul Summers Jr. (26:23)
Yeah, and I had no idea how. And so I was begging God to just take me out. I was like, you know, just, you know, what am I doing? You know, this is, I'm barely present for my daughter. I'm a terrible husband. I'm, you know, mad all the time and hate myself. And so I went to, I called a hotline, like a suicide hotline, and they had me go.



They asked me to go to inpatient treatment. I said, there's no way in hell I'm going to be away from my daughter for 30 days, you know, because I'm in denial. I, you know, I'm not even really there for my daughter to be honest, you know, neither one of us were his parents at that point. And I agreed to, uh, an outpatient treatment and that was where I was introduced to meetings and I strung together about 60 days and, uh, was



starting to feel better and then I started looking at all the reasons I was okay and I didn't really need you know these 12 steppers and you know they were they were different from me and their recovery was different from mine and I could probably just do a couple pills and I'll be okay and I mean within a very short amount of time I was right back to daily use and then I came up with a great idea of well

Maybe if I go back to alcohol, I can stop doing pills. You know, all the things we tell ourselves will work when we're all alone. You know, we isolate ourselves so we can have this like reasoning going on in our heads and, you know, and yeah, so after I think it was 11 or 12 years, I had sober. I'm back. You know, drinking. I mean, the, the very first night I got drunk, my wife, uh, my daughter's mom.

Robert (27:52)
boy.

Yeah.

Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (28:17)
She said I like spit on her and I was calling her names and I was like, I don't even, now I'm a blackout drunk. I was never a blackout drunk. Now I'm a blackout drunk and you know, I think a couple months of that went on, probably like seven or eight, like it just, it dragged on just every day. It was just, it was survival to go get more dope basically. And, you know, I said to her, we had a long talk one morning and I said to her, look,

Robert (28:37)
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (28:46)
I need to either die or be done with drugs. It's one or the other. And I said, because she was much younger. Yeah, oh man, oh man. And my thinking was, well, she's younger, she'll have the ability to parent on her own. This is my, I'm gonna claim complete unaccountability at this point, let me just end it kind of thing. I didn't wanna kill myself.

Robert (28:51)
Wow.

What a low place to fill.

Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (29:17)
never wanted to do that, but I was killing myself. And I said, so, you know, we need to stop, you know, I need to, I need to see that you're going to be clean before I die. Weird addict, you know, thinking the disease coming up with bargaining and all that kind of stuff. And anyways, she was not going to have any of that. The next day I came home from this temp job I had this different temp job that I had at that time, because we had lost.

Robert (29:33)
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (29:45)
a few jobs along that way.

Place was empty. Daughter was gone. Wife was gone. Got a phone call. And I said, you need to, and my dope was gone. Our dope, like the last of the dope that we had over the weekend, you know? I mean, I have a temp job and I've already called in sick like three times in one month, you know, because I'm sick all the time. And anyway, so I get a phone call and it's her and she says,

Robert (29:57)
Oh shit.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Paul Summers Jr. (30:20)
She says, hey, and I go, hey, you need to get your ass here. I'm going to beat your ass is what I said. So I threatened her, which wasn't OK. I would never have beat her by the way. That was never my thing. But no, I mean, to be honest, I have had history of laying hands on women in my history. I'll be honest about that.

Robert (30:26)
Yeah.

No history of that or anything in your past.

Paul Summers Jr. (30:49)
If somebody that I know watches this, that's one of the regrets I'll take to my grave. That's something I've tried to make amends for and there's a few people that have not allowed me to do that and I don't blame them. I don't blame them. So just to paint a real picture, I was a monster. I was a monster at times. I was a self-serving, massive ego and anytime you challenged me, I just puffed up bigger. So I regret that and I always will and that's not the man I am today.

Um, but I did threaten her, uh, or, and I did threaten her and there's no buts to that what I just, what I just shared, you know, um, it wasn't Uh, in my mind, it was what she deserved. And she said, you don't talk to me like that. You'll never fucking see your daughter again. But the last words I heard, you know, before a click and, uh, that, that was it. I mean,

Robert (31:39)
Oh my gosh.

Paul Summers Jr. (31:46)
You know, it wasn't the first relationship I had lost. You know, it wasn't the first, you know, person I had made angry or pushed away. But there's a three and a half year old kid and I love my daughter so much. And I just like, unacceptable. You know, unacceptable that I would lose my kid over my addiction, over my bad choices, over, you know.

You know, the other thing is, you know, I grew up as a shared, you know, playing music and, you know, I think my bigger, my bigger fear was I didn't want her to grow up without a dad. You know, the, the women that. Moat that the women that were often drawn to me were the ones that didn't have dads in their lives, you know? Um, and.

Robert (32:40)
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (32:45)
You know, so I'm looking at like, okay, you know, come to God moment, come to Jesus, however you want to say You know, I'm a, I've become a monster and I attract women. I don't know. I just, how do I, how do I lay it out? I don't want my daughter to be daddyless. You know, I know the

Robert (33:04)
Yeah, yeah, no, I get I mean, you see, I completely get that. I mean, I have two boys, but you see, it's not every female that grew up without a father, but I mean, it's extremely common. You know, they call it daddy issues, but it's extremely common where...

Paul Summers Jr. (33:18)
Yeah, that's right. That's it. Right. Yeah, right.

Robert (33:28)
They don't have strong relationship with men or healthy relationships with men and, you know, knowing how to relate to men. And so they're more promiscuous, whatever it may be.

Paul Summers Jr. (33:37)
Yeah.

Well, I've had, you know, my relationships with the ones that didn't have dads in their life, they're afraid of that commitment, like, because it's so confusing to them. You know, I mean, that's what that that'd be, you know, to add to what you're saying. You know, I think the term daddy issues, it kind of has become sort of a joke or, you know, funny. I don't think it's fair. You know, there's just there's a lot more to work out.

That's why I ran into you over and over was a fear of commitment, you know, just.

Robert (34:15)
Let me ask you this. So when you came home and the apartment was vacant, your daughter was gone. Was that a direct result from your addiction or was that because she didn't want to get clean or was it just, you know, w what do you think? What do you think the pure reason for that was why she packed up all their shit and left?

Paul Summers Jr. (34:42)
I can only really be accountable to my side of it. You know, I can't say for sure what her reason was. I don't know that I'll ever know. I would just say I was so unbearable to live with. You know, I mean, I think it's kind of, in a way it's probably me sort of, you know, putting it on her a little bit to say, well, she wanted to keep partying, so she took our kid and went out and kept partying. That's what happened. I don't know that was why that happened.

Robert (34:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (35:11)
know, maybe she had other plans. You know, she was also a lot younger and, um, you know, she, uh, you know, I don't know, I, I would not want to speculate on her reasoning or what was happening in her head. All I know is what, what happened was she, you know, disappeared. Um, it took a few weeks to even know she was around somewhere.

Robert (35:21)
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (35:40)
Uh, and so I'm going crazy missing my kid. You know, I was the one with like, right. Yeah. I mean, I was the one that gave her baths every night and put her to sleep and fed her in the morning and, and we had a very close bond. Uh, did the other part of it. She was that, uh, she was three and a half at that time, almost four. It was almost her fourth birthday. And the other, the other thing was, uh, I got served a restraining order.

Robert (35:44)
Yeah, because all this time, you don't have your daughter. Yeah.

And your daughter's how old at this time is your daughter?

Paul Summers Jr. (36:09)


And in the restraining order, it said that, you know, her and her, my daughter's mom and my daughter were afraid for their lives. And, you know, that I was physically abusive. And that wasn't true. So I had to fight that. I had made a call to a lawyer before I got served the restraining order because I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what my rights were. You know, this was all...

And I'm sure this happens to a lot of men. It's like, I was blindsided by this. Suddenly I can't see my kid, be with my kid. And her family doesn't wanna talk to me.

And, uh, and I don't know what pictures being painted on, on that side of the street, you know? And so I call a lawyer and the lawyer is like, well, she's going to serve you restraining order. No, she would never do that. She would never do that. And sure enough, I get served and, uh, and I, and, you know, I actually got served twice and I, I had a, a Beaverton Oregon police officer come and, and

you know basically read me the riot act and put the fear in you know i mean point his finger in my chest you will not call her is used to you know wife beaters like you and i'm like oh my god you know like man very hard time you know

Robert (37:36)
All just to build her case.

Paul Summers Jr. (37:38)
I'll just to build her case. Yeah. Um, on the, on the, I like to try to speak in balance, you know, on the bright side of that, the, the first day, the, the day after this happened, I went to a meeting, you know, I hadn't been to a meeting in about nine months and, um, I mean, I, you know, I fell, I fell apart there and, uh, and people were there to help me. They picked me up, you know, and, uh,

Robert (38:03)
So, so let's go back to that. You walk in, everything's gone. You're trying to figure out, you know, where she is, where your daughter is, you know, trying to clear your head and wrap your arms around everything. Do you immediately want to use? I mean, are you looking, you said she took your drugs as well, took your, took the dope you had.

Paul Summers Jr. (38:09)
Okay.

Robert (38:29)
I would think most addicts then would, oh, I've got to find a fix. I've got to find something to get me through this.

Paul Summers Jr. (38:37)
Yeah, and here's the, that's such a great question because it's something that doesn't come up much.

It was a clarifying moment. So, uh, you know, I looked at the walls in the apartment and. You know, I think I said something like great or something like that. And I could hear my voice echo off the walls because some of the things have been taken off. It's just the, the sound of the emptiness. It hit me. And like I was saying a little bit ago, it wasn't the first time. And how many times.

is my drug addiction going to destroy my relationships. And so I knew immediately, like, this is the thing I need to change. And so I did, I asked myself that question out loud. Do I call my dealer or do I go to a meeting? And fortunately I chose the latter. You know? Yeah.

Robert (39:44)
Thank goodness.



Paul Summers Jr. (39:45)
But yeah, I mean, I did think about it. Of course, I, you know, I thought about it. You know, there had been quite, yo, yeah, yeah. There had been quite a few times where, you know, I was able to quit drinking for a month or quit doing pills for three weeks or quit doing meth for three months, you know. And this was like, you know, the voices in my head were like, you know, you're just lying to yourself. You're gonna get clean just long enough to like,

Robert (39:50)
It's just the love of love of your daughter. I mean, I mean, absolutely.

Paul Summers Jr. (40:12)
go out and do more damage. I mean, I had all those, all that doubt was there for sure. You know, it's, it's been a while since I even remembered having those thoughts. But yeah, I mean, that was all, that was all there for sure.

Robert (40:29)
Geez, what a turning point. You know, you were talking earlier about begging God.

You know, I'm sure prior to that, he was showing you ways, but sometimes what I've noticed in my life, I'm not always the brightest, but sometimes God has to hit me on the head and I know some things I've even prayed to God, like, Hey God, I'm not the brightest guy. And I miss a lot of your clues, a lot of your cues.

Paul Summers Jr. (40:52)
Guys, man.

Robert (41:02)
you're going to have to be very, very clear to me. So please. And you know, the way I always think is you better be careful what you ask God for, or, you know, because he'll, he'll answer. He'll, it might not be the way you, you hope it'll be, you know, the way you're expecting, but he'll answer one way or another.

Paul Summers Jr. (41:19)
Yeah.

Well, yeah, for sure. I mean, I believe in God really through, it started with believing in a higher power, which is a part of the program and I call that higher power God, but part of, I mean, my prayers every day is for knowledge of his will, the ability to be quiet and listen and to hear God's will. And then the...

Robert (41:34)
Right.

Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (41:52)
the courage and the power and the strength to carry it out. That's every day for me, that's what I pray for. I don't necessarily pray for things. I just want the ability to, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, so that's a daily thing. And...

Robert (42:00)
Serenity prayer.

Let's go into, so you were served with a restraining order and you are clean at that time, going to meetings. Are you fairly clean? Are you still kind of using what?

Paul Summers Jr. (42:16)
Yes.

No, I mean, I stopped everything that day. So yeah, yep. Yep. So, you know, so two days into it, I'm served a restraining order. The court date was for about a month out. And so I'm, you know, I'm talking to this lawyer and this is, you know, to me, one of those God things, she was new, she was a bulldog. And she was, you know.

Robert (42:27)
You stopped everything right then. Boom, I'm done. Wow.

Paul Summers Jr. (42:51)
wanted to start off fresh and like, you know, get in, just get in there, you know, she was awesome. And but also, you know, so I benefit because I had no money. The other thing is, you know, my daughter's mom had buried the bank accounts, like emptied everything out and took it all, you know, so I had no money. And when she was willing to talk to me about what's going on, it wasn't like, well, I'm going to bill you by the, you know, the second here, you know, I was so just so blessed that, you know, poor guy, poor musician.

Robert (42:55)
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (43:20)
Poor musician's soul such as myself, you know, was able to, uh, to find, you know, that, I was able to get her on the phone and I called like not knowing what even to ask, you know, and, uh, and so she came to court with me for the hearing and, um, my, uh, daughter's mom was there and she approached my daughter's mom and said, you know, Hey, I'm representing Paul.

Robert (43:23)
Ha ha.

Paul Summers Jr. (43:49)
You know, I don't see a lawyer here with you. And like, she went, he got a lawyer? Like she was so surprised that I was going to fight this, you know, this restraining order. And, you know, we go into court and we, because, uh, my daughter's mom doesn't have a lawyer. Um, my lawyer asked for a continuance, you know, so she can get representation. And the, the judge says, oh, okay. Yeah. You know, that's, that's good. We're going to, we're going to move.

it this hearing to later in August when my daughter's birthday is in early August. And and I'm just like, oh my god, no, I can't miss my daughter's birthday. I haven't seen her. Yeah, and uh, my daughter's mom like raises her hand. She's like, our daughter's birthday is coming up. I want him to see her for her birthday. She's gonna, she's gonna be

Robert (44:30)
And you, cause you still haven't seen her.

Paul Summers Jr. (44:47)
She can't miss her dad on her birthday. And the judge is like, ma'am, do you realize the allegations you've made against this man? You said right here, you're afraid for your life and you want him to see his daughter? And I'm surprised she didn't drop the restraining order then. But now her case is coming apart. And so fortunately the judge granted that, that I could see.

her on her birthday, supervised of course. But man, I took every blessing I could get. And very hard, very hard time for our daughter, I think, more than anybody. Because now there's like, we're not even going to be able to see each other, because the restraining order is still in effect. Everything's got to be done through the grandparents. They're very suspect of me.

they're scared I'm gonna take our daughter and run back to Vegas, and that they would never see her again, because they love, you know, and, you know, I really grew up. I mean, I grew up, that period was like trial by fire, and, you know, I gotta say, I'm extremely grateful for it, even for what my daughter's mom did, because it, you know, pulled my head out of my ass. You know, it was the best thing that ever happened. Worst day of my life, best thing that ever happened, because...

Robert (45:47)
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (46:13)
You know, here I am 16 years later, still haven't touched any drugs or alcohol. So.

Robert (46:19)
That's great. Let's talk about, you know, you had mentioned in our prior conversation about when you were in court and you noticed the judge. I want to hear more about from you with.

being a father trying to get custody in the court system and what you saw, what you experienced as a father trying to obtain custody because you ended up, I hate to spoiler alert, you ended up getting sole custody, correct?

Yeah, but I wanna kind of go through that because you had mentioned about, you know, the judge passing out restraining orders to females, left and right and.

Paul Summers Jr. (46:50)
That's correct. And he just gave way to the word that.

Yeah.

Robert (47:00)
But can you kind of elaborate on that a little more?

Paul Summers Jr. (47:03)
Yeah, absolutely. And it's a touching emotional subject for men. And men, I don't think in general, aren't as able to speak when we're flooded with emotion. It comes out all crazy. Or crazy sounding, at least.

And, you know, we have feelings, we're emotional beings, we're attached to our kids, we want to be in their lives, we wanna be loving, nurturing parents, and we can do that as adequately as any woman. I mean, I firmly believe that. So, you know, and I don't know if, you know, being a musician and an artist, you know, makes me more feminine than...

the average man, I don't know, or open to femininity, or you know, but there's a balance and there's a reason for the balance of male and female and all that. And that's getting off on the weeds. Okay, what I experienced, you know, with the restraining order, it ends up getting dropped and I just felt I made the right choice by getting a female lawyer, I think, first.

I think Oregon is, well, statistically, it's one of the states where fathers are granted more, a good percentage, like a more fair and equitable percentage of custody. So there's that. And I know there are states where that's not the case.

Robert (48:41)
Yeah, I think there's 19 states, currently 19 states, where the standard is 50-50 for custody. Yeah, and generally it's the blue states where you'll see that, where then you'll have other ones. I'm in Georgia and it's in one of the bottom five, and I think it's 24%, 23% for, yeah, yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (48:52)
Okay, wow, that's it.

Yeah.

Oh, that's horrible. Yeah. I mean that, that has to change. And I, and I, I know there's pushes out there to change that. And a lot of other things seem to need to change going into that and including cultural perspectives. But so, you know, what I found was, so now, you know, now I'm clean. I'm, you know, doing everything to stay clean and

By default, I'll use that term, my daughter's mom just starts showing up less and less. Her addiction, I believe, was stronger than she wanted to believe, perhaps. But anyway, she starts showing up. I can just speak to the actions as I get a call, hey, I can't be there tomorrow to pick up.

Hey, I'm running late. Hey, I'm sick. Hey, I can't. And she's not working. She's constantly asking me for financial help. And any time I offer it, there was a lot of bargaining. I'll leave some stuff for the book, people who read the book. But what is happening is that I'm

Robert (50:26)
Hahaha.

Paul Summers Jr. (50:31)
Uh, my daughter is sharing about, you know, I know who all the drug dealers are, I was just going to them, you know, just a few months prior, you know, and it's like, Hey, we went to so and so's and we were at so and so's. And it's like, okay, well, that's pretty much a sign she's still using. Cause you don't go to a dealer's house unless you're, you know, picking up. Right. And, and so I, uh, I'm

Robert (50:52)
Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (51:00)
I don't know what to do other than, because I can't prove it really, but I go to court and it took a couple times of going to court and asking a judge for emergency custody. Again, I have no idea what any of this stuff is. I've never dealt with anything like this. You know, so the learning curve is steep, you know. There were a couple times I went to court and left because I wasn't sure.

of my own, I wasn't sure of my own desires as far as was I just trying to get back at her, you know, like I didn't want to do it for that reason. I wanted to, I had to be clear in my head, I'm doing this for our daughter. I really feel she needs to be safe, protected. And so I need to advocate for that. And I'm the only one that's going to do it. And so I...

you know, I'll share a short part of the book where I go into a courtroom and it's a hearing for oddly enough for restraining orders and then my case for emergency custody. So I sit through five cases of women saying, you know, they want a restraining order against their, you know, either their child's father, baby daddy. I don't like that term either.

Robert (52:26)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Summers Jr. (52:29)
child's father or boyfriend, you know, the guy that they're with. And each one of them, I think of those five, you know, they almost all said the same thing as far as like it was scripted, like you go into file a restraining order. And before I forget this real quick, you know, a restraining order is a great tool because there are bad people out there.

that don't respect boundaries and a lot of people to be involved with men and women that don't respect another person's boundaries. So I'm not saying the restraining order, yeah.

Robert (52:59)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Right.

No, they are extremely valuable. And they definitely have their place, but I'm gonna jump ahead. They also are abused as well and misused. Especially when it comes to divorce and custody. They are abused.

Paul Summers Jr. (53:17)
Right. Yeah.

They're abused. Yeah, they're abused. Yeah, I

They are abused and I got to see it firsthand.

It was like it was scripted, like everybody had the same script and it was the same one that was on my daughter's mom's restraining order, you know? It was like we're afraid for our lives and then the judge tried to peer into it a little bit and say, well, you know, you have you guys have a kid together, you know, how is he with the kid? And they had pretty much, you know, the general answer was like, oh, he's great with the kid or, you know.

We want him to keep seeing his kid, you know, and it's like, well, that doesn't make sense, but okay, I'll go ahead and grant the restraining order. And it's like, yeah, it's a tool being taken advantage of. It's, you know, and it turns into the boy who cried wolf kind of thing. It's like, you know, take it seriously, I think. But anyway, so my case comes up and, you know, I tell the judge, you know, my daughter's telling me that.

She's still going around these people that are, you know, meth users and, uh, the judge stopped me and she said, sir, you've got to be kidding me, you know? And I'm like, uh, no. And she said, you're going to come into my courtroom without proof of something like this, these accusations? And I said, well, I don't know how to get proof, you know, hire a private eye. I don't know how I'm going to get proof. I, I work full time.

because by default I have my daughter most days of the week. I don't know, how am I supposed to get proof? And she said, you're expecting me to drag a four-year-old into my courtroom and tell on her mom? And I was like, oh no. And all the women that were still there from the restraining order hearings, they were all laughing at me. I said the serenity prayer right then and there, oddly enough. I think the old me would have been feisty and...

Robert (55:30)
Mm.

Paul Summers Jr. (55:37)
You know, got my case thrown out for sure, but I just sat there. I just sat there quietly and I, you know, kind of shook my head down and like, uh, I don't know what to do here. You know? And, uh, the judge said, you know, I see a lot of men come in here and they try to get back at their wives through this, through this type of, you know, emergency protective order, she said, you, you need to come here with proof.

But because I'm a mandatory reporter, I have to turn this into child protective services. Now, if you can get one or two other people to do the same, then they will, you know, then the case will get started and they will start looking into your allegations. But she said, you know, don't come into my courtroom trying to, trying to do something, you know, you need to be genuine. And I was like, you know, I am. I am.

You don't know that, but so that was what got the ball rolling, you know. Um, and, oh, oh yeah.

Robert (56:41)
I just wonder how different it would have been if it was, you know, a mom that was in there versus a dad.

Paul Summers Jr. (56:49)
Yeah, there would have been no question, you know.

Robert (56:50)
I think we know the answer to that.

Paul Summers Jr. (56:53)
But yeah, I, you know, and I think so too. And it's like, those are the kind of like emotional, you know, truths, if we could call them truths, we don't know, but you know, that sort of, you know, I don't know. Like it's a wonder I got through that time. I'll say that, you know, it was like, I think, oh man, I think at that time I felt that I'd rather,

uh... i mean i wanted to give up i wanted to give up i just thought like why did i do all this where might go through all this you know

Robert (57:28)
Yeah, sure you did.

So many men do want to give up. Um, you know, I talked to a lot of them and when they're up against the court system, it is, you know, why should I even, I mean, my, you know, I don't have my kids with me, um, you know, my, I'm climbing this uphill battle, fighting this uphill battle, this climbing this mountain.

Paul Summers Jr. (57:35)
Right.

Robert (58:00)
You know, everything's against me. I just don't have a chance. And a lot of men, unfortunately, a lot of men do give up. They do give up and they just accept it. It's just the way, you know, okay. It's just the way it is. Fortunately, you did not, but you're, you still have the fight in front of you. So continue, you know, go ahead and keep going. Sorry.

Paul Summers Jr. (58:09)
do. Yeah.

Robert (58:21)


Paul Summers Jr. (58:21)
Yeah, and that's a great thing to point out. And, you know, that's part of the advocacy of this book is the not give up. Just don't give up. You know, keep trying. You have to learn as men, and I'm speaking to your audience, you know, you have to learn how to channel that emotion. And sometimes it's rage even and anger.

and find the ways that the system is going to listen to you. You know, cause we can be heard. We just got to find out how to, we got to learn how to speak, you know? And, and so, and maybe this was one of the, the benefits of the program, you know, uh, you know, being in a 12 step program and being around a lot of recovering people, well, a lot of them are single moms and single moms deal with this stuff all the time and.

and they know how to navigate the system. And so a sponsor I had at the time, I mean, that got set into motion now. And then some other people actually also reported her.

And I mean, I won't go too much into, this is a graphic part of the the day, how do I say this? I got two things going on in my head. My daughter was unfortunately harmed in her mom's care and that was...

Robert (01:00:01)
Mm.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:00:05)
what and she reported it to me which uh you know I'm grateful for.

her mom and I had always told talk to her about reporting you know anybody touching inappropriately come to us please come to us make sure to come to us discuss it with us so she did you know immediately I got child protective services involved uh... we had to go to the hospital and do these checks and I made sure that her mom came along uh... because

this happened on her watch and I wanted her to not get a secondhand story about this. I wanted her involved. And the next day after play therapy and psychologists had determined that there was inappropriate touching and harm done.

We were both asked to meet at the Child Predictive Services, and that was when I was awarded custody, sole custody at that time. My daughter's mom had avoided ever taking a pee test, so they concluded, you must be on drugs. No rational person would avoid, I think, at that point, three or four months they had been asking her for a pee test.

Robert (01:01:29)
Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:01:37)
And it didn't go well, it did not go well at all. It was a very, a very strained experience. And the, you know, yeah.

Robert (01:01:48)
Paul, let me ask you something. I mean, I'm trying to put myself in your shoes and part of it is...

Part of it is there's some relief that your daughter's with you, she's safe. And she's, she's finally there with you. She's safe. But damn, there's another part of me where there is just a rage to the court system that my daughter had to be harmed before you would allow her to be safe in my care. Did you have any of that? Was there any sort of rage or anger at family court? Any of that or

You seem more like a peaceful person. So you probably didn't that I would have. I would have been enraged with that.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:39)
Uh, you know, here's the odd thing. Uh, he, you know, the person harmed the most obviously is my daughter. Um, uh.

Robert (01:02:48)
Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:02:53)
Some people that know me pretty well would probably argue with you that I'm a peaceful person. Because I have my moments, you know, I have my moments. But thank you, you know, it's taken a lot of work to be a more peaceful person. The, yes, of course I had rage, but my focus was my daughter. So I...

Robert (01:02:59)
Ha ha.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:26)
I mean, I'm just one of those people, I don't know, I'm empathic, I in that I know, okay, I'm talking about, you know, we were talking earlier about sound healing and like, you know, science, the science is picking up on, you know, these frequencies and vibrations. Well, I believe in those things between a parent and a child, like we pick up on each other, you know.

Robert (01:03:51)
Hmm. True. Wow.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:03:54)
You definitely know it when they can't talk yet. You know, you're picking up on vibes and facial things, you know? But it's like if I'm carrying that rage, you know, now my daughter's like, she's already gone through enough. So I have to compartmentalize that, which I'm not good at compartmentalizing, but...

Robert (01:03:57)
Right.

Gotcha. Yeah.

No, but that's a really good point. Because I know with going through the divorce, the boys were, my sons were always looking at me. And I knew that if I didn't hold it together, if I was not a solid person, having my wits about me, that they would fall apart too. That they looked at me for safety. And if I was okay, they were okay.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:36)
Yes.

Robert (01:04:40)
So I guess that's where, yeah, I see what you're saying

there, yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:04:44)
Yeah, yeah, that's definitely. Ooh, man. I mean, that, you know, that's the, I don't know. What do you call that? It's just the, you know, the.

Robert (01:04:56)
You know, so I was, um, again, I hate to talk about me. I'll make it short, um, because you're the, you're the guest on here, but I remember again with my divorce and I was also going to a therapist then to try to help me, you know, maintain my mental health, emotional health, and be a good dad and just help me get through that period. Um,

I remember my therapist asked him, he's like, you need to get mad. He, you know, I've met with you. I can't remember how many times several times he's like, there's just no anger. You know, every, every class or every session we'd have a check in, you know, and it's what is your depression level? What is your anger? What is your, this, what is your, that, and my anger was always really low. And he's like, why? Like, why are you not mad? You know, after, and he would go through with.

you know, the divorce process and different things that were being and said, and all of, you know, everything I was fighting. And I just told him, I told him, I said, doctor, I said, I guess it's, I don't have an answer for you, but every day I pray for peace. And I said, you know, in my mind, I'm thinking that I want peace around me.

And I said, but I guess what I'm receiving is peace, peace within.

And he was like, ah, okay, that explains it because, you know, from what you've told me about your past and how I can see you get, it's just, you know, that actually makes sense now. But, you know, that's, I mean, obviously what you were, you know, what you had received was peace within and to help your daughter get through, get through this.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:32)
See you later.



Robert (01:06:57)


Paul Summers Jr. (01:06:57)
Yeah, and like listening to you share that, it's nice when a therapist likes what you have to say. I also believe it's instinctual. I think it's instinctual as, I can't speak for women because I don't know what their instincts are totally. But as a dad, I think it was instinctual to protect, instead of, because raging, you're out of control.

Robert (01:07:06)
I'm out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:27)
I, if I'm out of control, I'm not protecting, you know, so I think it was, you know, I think it was like a primal instinct was, you know, because a few of my friends, they were just like, dude, you know, this, you know, this person that was sleeping with my daughter's mom and, the inappropriately touched my daughter, like, you know, don't you want to kill him? And it's like, I don't have time to focus on that, man. And they'd be like, that's

Robert (01:07:27)
Yeah.

Yeah, true. Great point.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:07:56)
that's not you. And I'm like, yeah, I don't Yeah.

Robert (01:07:57)
Yeah. Great point. Great point, though. And very, very mature of And great point. Definitely. So this was how many years ago? 12 years ago? Something like that?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:06)
Yeah. That's about it.

Robert (01:08:13)


Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:13)
This was 15 years ago now. Yeah, and I would wrap up one other thing that I wanted to say that speaks to your audience definitely is child support. So, you know, here I am, the custodial parent, and I should be getting child support, yeah? I mean, that's how the system is set up, is it not? And what happens to a man when he doesn't pay his child support?

Robert (01:08:17)
15 years ago, okay. Yeah.

Yeah.

should be.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:42)
Do you know what's the...

Robert (01:08:44)
Oh yeah. I mean, you're in jail. You know, it's yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:08:46)
jail. You know, license taken away, wages garnished. You know, I've had friends who they no longer went to work because they didn't think it was fair how they were And it's like, kind of screwing yourself by not working. Everything I do is under the table. And it's like, yeah, you're still kind of screwing yourself. But, you know, anyway, my case, about a year into sole Custody.



Um, uh, my daughter gets diagnosed with type one diabetes. So now I'm looking at exorbitant insulin chart. Oh my gosh, insulin, you know, and, uh, you know, and what I mentioned the, the women in the program, you know, like the, the child support they, they send me, the state sends me, you know, Hey, we, you know, we talked, we talked to the judge, like they, you know, they operate on your behalf, right. Um,

Robert (01:09:25)
Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:09:45)
And we went to the judge, we're still trying to hold the mom accountable, the other parent accountable. And it's like, man, something needs to happen. I was patient. And again, I went through like, should I go fight this? And then I didn't. And then I talked to some women and they said, well,

You know, you need to get in front of the judge and you need to express your hardship. And I, as a man, I'm like, well, I don't want to look bad. You know, I'm not, I, I'm not struggling, but I was struggling, you know? I mean, I was barely making it paycheck to paycheck. And, uh, so I decided to show up in court and the, the state people, uh, sorry, I can't think of.

Robert (01:10:16)
Yeah.

Right.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:10:35)
what their official titles are, but the people that advocate for your kid on behalf of child support that go in front of the judge, they said, what are you doing here? You know, we got this. And I said, well, I want to show my face. You know, I want to advocate for my child. You know, and they're like, oh, no, we can do this. And I said, no, I really want to do that. And the woman laughed. She said, okay, all right. And I'm just like, ugh.

my god and then I see my daughter's mom there at this point we're divorced. So I see my ex-wife there and she's in shock that I'm there and she hasn't called in months and months you know and to talk to our daughter. So there's already this abandonment is already in place and our case comes up and I'm watching every case before me and every single one of them

is like.

you know, is a single mom saying, you know, this guy's not providing the child support that he's supposed to pay and, you know, bangs the gavel, you know, he's going to be fine this or we're going to take away that. And my case comes up or my daughter's case comes up and, you know, is there anybody here representing the kid? And then I, I was in the back of the courtroom and I said, I am, you know, I'm her dad. And

Every other woman that was called got called up to the front to address the judge. Well, she addressed me from the back of the courtroom. And yeah, so I'm, you know, and, uh, and she's like, you know, what do you have to say? And at that point I had a folder full of, uh, every three months, I think the, the child support people would send me something saying, you know, here's how much it is in arrears we.

Kevin, we're not able to get any money for you at this point. She has no money or whatever. And, uh, I said, I have here your honor, you know, all these, Kate, you know, all this saying, we're going to do something about it. When are you going to hold her accountable? And there was a gasp in the courtroom. Yeah. That's what every single woman they're asked for. Right. And the judge said, excuse me, sir. You expect me to.

Robert (01:12:47)
Hehehehehehe

Yeah.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:12:59)
make this you take away she she said do you expect me to see if I can get this you expect me to what do you expect me to do is what she said do you expect me to put her in jail how is that ever going to help your child support case you'll never see a penny then and I was just like and then the women there laughed and I was like how are we not on the same team how are we not on the same team I'm fighting for my kid like you guys are fighting for yours.

And so I cut into what I was told from other women. And I said, well, your honor, my daughter's pants are above her ankles. Her shoes have holes in them. And I played the emotion card. And that's what I was taught to do. I didn't want to do it. I thought it made me look bad. I was scared. Hey, if I'm not providing for my kid,

Robert (01:13:58)
Yeah, because we as men have pride, right? I mean, I'm not saying the women don't, but we have pride and that's partly what we were raised with as being a provider and that we can handle it and we can provide for our children and you're basically going in front of the judge and everybody else saying,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:14:10)
Yes. Yep.

Robert (01:14:15)
I can't, I need help.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:14:15)
Yeah. Well, and that, you know, that emotional connection, like she connected with that. And she looked at, you know, my daughter's mom and she said, do you think you can manage a hundred dollars a month? And she kind of shook her head and she said, well, if you don't, we're going to put a warrant out for you, so can you do a hundred dollars? And she agreed to it.

So that was the only way I was, that was the start of getting child support, you know, was advocating. So like, you know, if there's a message of hope in the, in the, you know, in telling the story in this book, it's like, don't give up, don't give up no matter, you know, you don't have to fight necessarily, but just don't give up.

Robert (01:15:04)
That is beautiful. That's beautiful. Um, your book comes out. I want to be. You know, respectful for your time. And I'd so much appreciate you coming on and sharing your story. I know there's a lot more we've talked about it, but I want to leave a lot for your book, for those that are going to read it. Where can people find, uh, where can people find your book? When does it comes out in a few weeks in February,

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:31)
It comes out, we don't have a set date. It's going to be early February though. We're just, I'm going to set it up so you can. Uh, and I'll do that within the next couple of days. Um, so I will say that. Yes, I'll, I'll set.

Robert (01:15:36)
Okay. Can you pre-order it?

Okay.

Okay. So by the time this is launched, you'll be able to preorder the book. So how can they find it? How do they, how do they go about finding the book?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:15:52)
Okay, so first of all, let me get my plug. The name of the book is called Hide and Seek, A Dad's Journey from Soulless Addiction to Soul Custody. That's the name of the book. And hide and seek, the use of that is, it's kind of what we deal with custody. I mean, it was like my daughter was hidden from me. And my daughter and I also had this game of hide and seek we used to play. So.

Robert (01:15:54)
Here we go.

Beautiful.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:18)
it's there's some touchstones there the book so paulsummersjr.com is the website and that's paul Summers like summertime s-u-m-m-e-r-s Jr. For jr. Not the word juniors fell out so jr.com and I will set up a form on there where you can pre-order the book

Robert (01:16:36)
So PaulsSummersJr.com. What about anything with social media? Do you have social media page for this or anything like that or not? It's fine if you don't.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:45)
Not, I don't have one set up for the book yet, no. I mean, I'm on Facebook and Instagram.

Robert (01:16:48)
Okay, okay. But they can they can find they can find if they go to that site, they'll be able to find the book.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:16:54)
Yeah, and then any other social media that I'm on advocating for dads and for addicts in recovery.

Robert (01:17:02)
Great, great. And I will put a link as well to your site so people can find it as well. And man, I appreciate it. Now, when I get the book, when I order the book, if I send it to you, you gonna put an autograph on there?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:17:02)
Yeah.

I would be honored to do that. I'm so, yeah, Robert, so love what you're doing for men basically, really enjoyed this conversation.

Robert (01:17:20)
Well, I would be honored for you to do that.

I mean, I appreciate you and I appreciate you saying that it is, it's a journey. Um, it is being a father, being a dad is something I am extremely passionate about and I feel as society, uh, it's not easy for dads, uh, and we've also gotten away the, from the values, the true values, uh, for dads and how dads are viewed. And I think a lot.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:17:57)
Yeah.

Robert (01:18:01)
I truly believe and I will argue this to my death that a lot, a lot that's going wrong in society these days is a result of the lack of fathers being involved. Whether that is themselves, but a lot of times it's the court system that's the reason for that. And so what do we do?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:18:24)
Yeah.

Robert (01:18:28)
You know, what can we do as dads to be involved? You know, and I love your story. Man, went through addiction, severe addiction. You know, your back was against the wall, uphill battle with court system. You know, I know there's a lot more in your book that goes into detail about that. And then able to receive

full custody of your daughter. And now living a beautiful life, remarried and have some bonus children as well. I mean, from the man, from that you've gone from the depths to, I hate to say living on a mountain, but from a lot brighter future now with you, a lot brighter present with you now.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:10)
Absolutely not.

Yeah.

Robert (01:19:25)


Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:26)
Good. Life is good.

Robert (01:19:27)
Man, I appreciate you. Anything else you want to address or anything we missed?

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:32)
No, I think we got the important stuff, you know, just don't give up.

Robert (01:19:35)
Yeah, definitely. Well, look, everybody that's listening, go to it's Paul summers, Jr. Dot com. Correct. Okay. So go there pre-order the book. Um, it will be out in February and Paul, thank you again for coming on. I really do. I, I thank you and, um, you know, I look forward to future conversations. I wish you the best of luck with your book as well. And every

Paul Summers Jr. (01:19:43)
Yes.

Roberts.

Thank you so much for your time.

Robert (01:20:02)
Oh, you're welcome. You're welcome. And thank you all for listening to dad. Dad's podcast. Yeah. You could find, there you go. You can find us on Spotify or Apple podcasts as well as on YouTube and Instagram. And don't forget to hit that like and subscribe button as well. So you don't, uh, so you don't miss any future episodes. All right. And we'll see you all next time. Thank you again.

Paul Summers Jr. (01:20:05)
Yeah, thank you. Go dads.

Thank you.