Interview with David Magee

In this episode, I interview best selling author David Magee, author of ‘Dear William, A Father’s Memoir of Addiction, Recovery, Love and Loss’. We delve into Magee's book 'Dear William,' which explores the importance of preparing children for life’s challenges as well as the struggles and recovery of an American family. Magee emphasizes the significance of vulnerability and honest conversations in relationships, as well as the need to break the cycle of brokenness while sharing personal experiences of addiction and mental health issues within his family. We also discuss the pressure parents feel to shape their children's lives and the importance of finding internal joy. In this conversation, Magee discusses his regrets as a parent and the importance of listening to children, while also emphasizing the role of being a mentor rather than dictating the path for children. David shares a powerful moment with his late son William, where they looked up at the stars on an extremely cold night in New Mexico and felt a deep connection to God. He also discusses the creation of the William McGee Center at Ole Miss and the upcoming movie adaptation of his book 'Dear William.' 

Takeaways

• Vulnerability and honest conversations are crucial in building strong relationships.
• Addiction and mental health issues are complex and require compassion and understanding.
• Parents should focus on internal joy and helping their children become the best versions of themselves, rather than trying to shape their lives according to societal expectations.
• Breaking the cycle of brokenness requires self-reflection, recognizing mistakes, and making changes. Parents should focus on cultivating relationships with their children and listening to them rather than making decisions for them.
• Being a mentor involves guiding and supporting children while allowing them to find their own path.
• Letting children struggle and take personal responsibility helps them develop resilience.
• Finding moments of connection with loved ones can be powerful and transformative.

Transcript

Robert (00:00)
Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Dad to Dads podcast. While the podcast is still in its infancy, and we've touched on a variety of subjects, all with dads and parenting being the common denominator, today's topic is, in my opinion, the most important. As a father of two sons, there are concerns I have about things they'll be faced with in life, and have I prepared them adequately?

But this subject is one that truly keeps me up at night because of its grip, sometimes allure and the deadly consequences that come from it. Today, I want to welcome David McGee, author of Dear William. David, welcome to the Dad to Dad's podcast.

David Magee (00:44)
Oh, thank you so much.

Robert (00:46)
David, I really appreciate you taking time out of your day, but look, we're going to get into Dear William. I mean, that's the reason why you're on here, but you've had several, uh, successful books. You've published several written and published several successful books. I mean, from how Toyota became number one, which was a top 10 business book of the year, the John Deere way.

David Magee (00:59)
Yeah.

Robert (01:10)
playing to win Jerry Jones and the Dallas Cowboys. And also things have changed what every parent and educator should know about the student mental health and substance misuse crisis. And other ones as well. And look, I appreciate you coming on. Definitely thank you.

David Magee (01:28)
You know, it's funny though. Look, I wrote, uh, you know, I'm a writer and I'm a storyteller and, uh, majored in journalism in college. So, you know, I have to make a living like a lot of people. It's almost some of those earlier books. I'm not saying they don't mean anything to me. Like let us take how Toyota became number one, for example, it did well. It was a best seller in India. It was a, uh, American library association, top 10 business book of the year. And I'm look, I'm proud of that, but.

And I'm not saying there's not lessons in there, but even when I was writing those, I always felt like this is a job. I sure wish I could get to my calling. I sure wish I could get to where I write what I'm called to put out on this earth, but I didn't really have that story. And good gracious, if somebody had told me what we were going to have to go through for me to get that story.

I don't know if I would have survived it, you know? Honestly.

Robert (02:30)
Yeah. Yeah. And I tell you what the book, Dear William, um, it has everything. I mean, it had, I, I, I don't know how to say this. I hate that you've had to go through what you've gone, what you and your family have gone through, but, um, it is, I mean, it's, it is definitely one of my most favorite books to read. And, uh, it, it really, really, it really, really hit me. And again, as a father,

David Magee (02:50)
Oh, wow. Hey, thank you.

Robert (03:00)
You know, it is something that, you know, hit on a lot of cords I mean, it definitely did. Yeah.

David Magee (03:08)
So can I, you bring up something really important, Robert, and I'm gonna say something to men and fathers here. Look, I'm just gonna be honest and they can take it however. You telling me that is a big deal and I'll tell you why. Dear William, my memoir has had, it's had success beyond what I thought and there's more to come and I'm humbled by that. But here's what's interesting. I wrote that.

book as a vulnerable father, realizing, you know, that was a big angle of the book is we'd been through so much and I needed to, as a man who had kind of hidden and covered up things and tried to say, I'm fine. I needed to write something really from the depth of my soul that revealed how I got into this, how my family got into this from addiction to infidelity to, you know, questioning career issues, everything. And how,

I and we got out of it. But here's my point. Do you know who my biggest audience so far of that book has been? Women. Women. Women. And I'll tell you why. They tell me. I mean, I didn't know. Women more than men. And when the publisher thought all along, man, this thing will, it'd be like Glennon Doyle has all this audience over here and women trying to find themselves.

Robert (04:16)
No, who is? Women.

Wow.

David Magee (04:35)
I speak where a lot of men come from. There's faith, there's like I'm wrestling with career, I'm wrestling with myself, I'm wrestling to all these commitments that I'm trying to figure out how to juggle. They thought you'll break through with men. They're gonna want this so bad. Women, women took my book to the bestseller list. Women are my, have so far. Now there's time, there's time and I'll tell you why.

A woman told me once early on, and I have heard it over and over. They said, we're so refreshed to hear a man, you know, like our husband's age, talking with vulnerability that they come to it like, wow, let me have this. So, you know, you as a man, as a father coming to me and saying that it means a lot.

Robert (05:28)
You know, because, and it's interesting you bring up vulnerability it has come up so many times on here, uh, with men talking about vulnerability and, um, had Kenny Joyner on here. And he even talked about that was, um, the most impactful or the most important thing in his relationship with his daughter and his wife, um, was his vulnerability. And, um, as men, we don't.

David Magee (05:52)
Mmm.

No doubt.

Robert (05:55)
talk, we don't talk about vulnerability. We, we don't want it, you know, and the era we were raised, I mean, we're, we're pretty close in age. You're not vulnerable. You tough it out. And that's what, you know, you see that. Yeah.

David Magee (06:01)
dear.

No. And it's a weakness generally if you do. Because you feel like the family needs you so much. And so I live that life like they don't have time for dad who's got to keep this bus running. Nobody has time and nobody has interest. So you're like, I'm fine. Let's go. I'm fine. Let's go. But you know what? We are human. And the reality is, look, if we weren't, if we weren't

If we didn't have the ability to break or almost break, if we didn't have the ability to wrestle with emotions and feelings, there would be no need for us humans in faith. There would be no need for us in one another. We could just be robots and move along, but we're not. We're this complex human body and mind put on this earth for a reason. And part of what we have to learn is it's okay to...

not feel so great some days. And it's okay to really question, why are we here? Am I supposed to be in this job? What's my role in this family? Or my wife and I destined to be together for the long term? I mean, these are fair.

Robert (07:16)
Yeah, yep.

Yeah, I agree. I totally agree. And David, you've wrestled with a lot from childhood, you know, to even recently. And, you know, I was reading the book and of course taking notes because I knew I was going to interview you. Actually, before I started interviewing you, I was taking notes and hoping to interview you. And then I reached out and I had a lot of notes. We could go through.

This could be a four hours and one day I hope we can have time where we can sit down. I mean, I'm planning to come to Oxford this year for a game, bring my two sons up and hopefully, hopefully we'll run into each other. Um, and, and I won't take up your time in the Grove. I promise you that, you touch on a lot of things that men struggle with and.

David Magee (07:53)
there.

No deal. Yeah.

We will.

Robert (08:13)
Unfortunately, you've had some, you know, you've, man, you, you've had to endure hell, um, from childhood on and, um, you know, and with raising your sons, I mean, you've been through it, but let's just kind of get, if you don't mind, let's go through, dear William, can you tell us?

David Magee (08:24)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Robert (08:42)
Can you tell us about the book? Can you tell us? Just, you know.

David Magee (08:44)
Yeah. So it's interesting, Robert, like when I.

When people are first encountered by Dear William and know a little bit about my story, just a little bit, they think, I actually had a friend say this once, he hadn't read it, and he told another friend, he said, oh, he wrote this touching memoir about his son's death from an accidental drug overdose. And I laughed, I said, yeah, that's what you think it is. But you'll find if you crack it open, that's not what it's about.

That's the hook because, you know, as you know, it opens with finding my son William, our oldest child, dead from an accidental drug overdose. And he had so much, so much, I mean, he's fluent in Spanish. He was in the honors college. He was all stayed in track, ran track at Ole Miss, made it all the way to the SEC Track and Field Championships. He was so, such a funny and tender heart.

and you know, involved in youth group all the way through high school. And you think how did a young man like that die of an accidental drug overdose for heaven's sakes, literally for heaven's sakes.

I find him and I'm on my knees and we'd already been through so much as a family. Divorce, I'm happy to say remarriage, which for us was the right thing. It's not always in the cards. For us, it was the right thing. When I got back on my own feet, I nearly lost another child from an accidental drug overdose, a daughter battled eating disorder. When I find my son William, I stop.

And I remember like just sobbing on the ground. And I remember thinking, Lord, how did this happen? And it was almost like an out of body experience of being taken on this journey. I think it was God's way of allowing me to survive the moment. But it wasn't necessarily easy, but it was like I was flying back over my life.

Because I realized, like when we have deaths from overdose or we have tragedy, like maybe you'd always die, somebody, a child or a spouse or somebody who's dealing in a severe mental health crisis, and you think, this is so hard. The reality is we want to tend to pin it down to just that thing, like what's the pill to solve this? Or can we just grieve this loss and move on? But I knew it was bigger than that.

Robert (11:24)
Right.

David Magee (11:32)
I knew that there were generations involved. I inherited pain and I passed it on to my children and my son, William. Does that make me solely responsible? No. But was there a lot more to look into? How did we get here? Students, young people today, back in our, when we were children, they would talk about young people.

Young people use substances for peer pressure. It's peer pressure. They told us that. And I don't know, maybe that was true then. The studies today reveal, not true, they self -medicate. Actually, like my son William, a lot of times they're hiding. It's not social. They're hiding the depth of their substance misuse. Alcohol, marijuana, other drugs, pills.

Robert (12:04)
Right.

David Magee (12:23)
And my son, William, was no different. It was hidden from his girlfriend, from his friends, to the level of which, from us to the level of which he was suffering and using. And so, look, he had pain. I mean, he needed help, not punishment. And for me, Dear William is the book of how did we get here? And how do we get out? How do we break the family cycle of what I inherited and what I passed on?

And that's the story. Somebody told me, well, I started reading what I thought was an addiction book. And sure, that's a part of it. But what I realized is this is a book about, like you said, I mean, it's everything from faith to fatherhood, really fatherhood, but it's about the making and near breaking and ultimately the recovery of an American family.

Robert (13:17)
It true that that is, that is a beautiful way to put it. It really is. It really is a family that, um, you know, on the surface and look back then, if there had been Instagram, you and your family would have been posting pictures and everything's perfect, right? Everything looks perfect. You're smiling, you know, nice house, you know, you know, good looking children. Everything's great. And.

David Magee (13:31)
Yeah.

Yes!

Mmm.

Robert (13:44)
under the surface, everything is just, is, is, I don't want to say falling apart, but you know, you're struggling, you're struggling to keep it all together, you know.

David Magee (13:44)
Mmm.

No, it was falling apart. It was falling apart. And you're pretending and you're so, so you just reminded me, well, there's two things you, you, you've got great insight that one is when things start getting bad in a family and it, you, you early on, you just want to hide it and you're in denial with yourself.

You don't want anybody to know the pain you're suffering. So you put on a smile and get to that engagement party you're supposed to be to for your neighbor and everything's great. You crack a drink and try to relax. I remember this. I didn't even know how messed up it was, but I do now. I remember when things kind of were getting bad. And so whenever they go bad, it doesn't matter.

what the scenario is, it will always start hitting the pocketbook because a family in some level of distress, it always, I don't care what's coming in, it will hit the bottom line. It does every time, every single time. You can chalk that up every time. And so here's what sickness and denial is. When that starts happening in our family, I'm stressing not over,

I'm not on my knees praying to God I'm losing my family. I was in such denial, I was thinking, how's this gonna look when I have to quit the golf club?

How's this gonna look? And you know,

Like what, what was I thinking? You know, because see, you're not thinking, you're not thinking. And, and all I had to do was, it's kind of like infidelity. I was drowning. And so I ended up in an extramarital affair, which was like a drug. And that wasn't about my wife. That was about false feedback. I was seeking, you know, it.

Robert (15:45)
You're not.

David Magee (16:09)
In my head, I'm telling myself a bunch of stories of why I'm doing it. But the truth is, I know now that if I really cared anything about my wife, and I did, I would have just gone to her and said, hey, I meant when I married you, but this isn't working, so we need to just stop this now and I'll go do whatever it is I want. But see, I didn't do that.

I didn't do that because that wasn't really the case. And that wasn't the issue. I wanted her and I wanted to be with her. I was drowning and I couldn't communicate with her. So when those walls that go up, it's just like a sugar high. I don't have the backbone or the strength to tell you what I'm facing. So I'm just going to go get this sugar high out here and, and.

and shut off from reality and get this false feedback and run from everything I don't want to face. And that's really what infidelity is because it's not about if we just wanted somebody else. If it wasn't about running, we just go to our spouse and be honest and say, here's what I'm facing and I don't want this anymore. And it'd go a lot better and they deserve that. We should try that. You know, I promise you, if I ever get there again and I pray that I won't and I don't think I will.

Because my wife and I did get divorced, but we got remarried and it's been amazing. And it's been, it's one of the fruits of a lot of mistakes I made is that we had to come back together in a more honest point. And look, honesty, I tell that and people say like, oh, well you got it figured out. I'm like, look, I think we'll grapple with that for the rest of, all of us humans on earth. You know, you look nice, but we might be thinking.

Well, I don't like that color, but it's so getting to just the bare bones of it is always work. But I'll tell you, you know, I'm able to look at my wife now and go, it's you, it's always been you. And I know it's always gonna be you. And I'm able to not put myself in positions that compromise that.

Robert (18:23)
Let's.

Well, I'll tell you what, your wife through the book Kent, she's a saint. I mean, she is, she is. I would love to meet her one day. And I mean, she really is. And you know, with, yeah.

David Magee (18:38)
Hmm. I mean, she's unbelievable.

Oh yeah.

I mean, she had a quiet, powerful strength. I'm not willing to let my family go.

Robert (18:56)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's obvious. That's obvious. But you know, David, you are too. Um, have you always been a saint? No. But, you know, I mean, who of us, who of us is right. And, um, but another thing I loved is,

David Magee (19:04)
No. Yeah. Wow.

Robert (19:17)
I hate to keep using the word vulnerability, but your vulnerability, you recognizing your mistakes. I mean, you've talked about them already, but recognizing mistakes, seeing where you needed to change things and changing things. You know, I want to go back.

David Magee (19:32)
Yeah.

Robert (19:36)
to something your daughter said.

And this was at a horrible time, the family was going through and your daughter said, how did we get so broken?

David Magee (19:51)
Duh. Yeah. Dad. She said dad.

How did we get so broken? It was like one of these moments where you're sitting around in the kitchen, you know, how you can meet up with your family member there, kind of thing, you know. But we were at the hospital. But it had that kind of, you know, kitchen moment where you're just, you're there, you know, kind of how you, you know, you're just standing there. There's not any big conversation, but we just happened to be in the hospital where our son Hudson was on life support.

And we're just in that kind of kitchen moment back there, just like the conversation's not taking a direction and the reality setting in. Dad, how did we get so broken? And you just think, oh my gosh. Because we started out, you know, we got married and met in college and we just had this big American dream. We wanted what everybody wanted. We wanted our children to have it better than we have it. And...

Look, I taught young adult Sunday school classes. Some Sundays, I like to say I wrote my own lessons. I felt like I got more points for that. I coached my children in every youth sports team they played. But I wanted them to look up to me and they did. They did. I achieved that and I won. But then, you know, as I'm self -medicating myself from a lot that I'd faced every night,

cracking open drinks, and over time that kind of grew into more. I mean, my children are looking at me going, well, they did look up to me. This is what you do. And we just didn't have a lot of, I think, depth of honest conversations about what really each one another were facing. If my children, when our son William got caught smoking marijuana in ninth grade, I'm grounding him and punishing him.

Robert (21:33)
Yeah. Yeah.

David Magee (21:53)
And it created this tension and what I didn't understand was Sure, there have to be rules I mean rules are a great way to figure out if people are really struggling or not because you've set rules and they can't stay within them. Okay, well something's wrong and You know, but My precious son William needed counseling. He had things going on. He needed help. He didn't need you know this He wasn't a bad

And he wasn't being bad, he was struggling with mental health and self -medicating and falling into addiction. And so the complication of how we got so broken when my daughter, when we're having our kitchen moment in the emergency room, it just brought me to my knees. And that really, when it came time to write Dear William, that comment of hers really stuck with me. And I realized, I need to write the book.

to dive into that. I need to delve into how did we get so broken? Because that's the only way you can get out of it. We men have to be tougher to look inside ourselves. See, the thing about male toughness is not wrong. We actually need it. But it's not this machismo that is punching everybody down. I think our greatest toughness required is needing to look within ourselves to like,

what's here and how can I best serve others, my family, the community, myself. That's the toughness it's required. And so when my daughter kind of asked that question, how do we get so broken, it gave me great pause and made me really take a stop and start taking a look to figure out great question. How did that happen? And in asking that question, which is what my book, Dear William is about,

We were able to, I was able and we were able to find solutions to get out of it, to get unbroken.

Robert (23:54)
David, I want to ask you something, um, because you do seem like a very insightful person. Do you know was, was your vision or at that time when your family was struggling, were you more focused on how, and you kind of alluded to this, but were you more focused on how we look to others? Oh, if we look this way to others,

David Magee (24:19)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Robert (24:22)
It doesn't matter how we, you know, you're ignoring everything inside. Then of course we're good.

David Magee (24:24)
Sure, if you look fine then therefore you are fine. Yeah, I deal with that in a lot of, I'm able to help a lot of high school and college students these days and I had somebody tell me once, they said, well, you're like a child whisperer. And I kind of cried, I did cry because I'd let my own children down when they were in high school because I spent a lot of time telling them what they should do and telling them how they should feel and telling them how they should be.

And I was trying to tell them to be a picture. You go do what I think you should do to fit the picture and then we'll be fine to answer your question. And so nowadays I realize, I think the only picture of our young people that we need is one of internal joy. And if we can help them find sustainable joy and help them be...

the body and mind and soul that God created them to be and sometimes stop over tinkering with applying so much pressure of who and what they should be and where they should be. You know, yeah, that was a big learning lesson for me. That's it.

Robert (25:39)
And and living living that example to right. I mean, I think about and I'm not knocking you when you put it in the book. But when when you were talking, believe yeah, it was to William. And you were getting onto him and you had your glass of wine in your hand. You know, and it's it's it's living that example.

David Magee (25:47)
But you can knock me.

Uh, you're right. Right. He's looking back at me. He, he, he, he'd gotten caught using marijuana in high school. And I like, I don't want to have this conversation. I don't want to have this conversation. And we get up from dinner and I don't want to have.

I'm so mad. He's got everything going for him. I mean, he can run like a, you know, sub 11, 100 meter dash, fluent in Spanish, like I said, right? He can fly. And I'm like, and I'm uptight. So I go pour a glass of wine, because I don't want to have the conversation. I pour myself a glass of wine to kind of numb myself into it. And I'm sitting there sloshing that thing around, looking at him. Why would you put everything...

Robert (26:20)
All American kid. I mean, yeah. Yeah.

David Magee (26:44)
You have at risk for a substance. Could you explain that to me? And I remember him glaring back a hole through my heart. And it only really was later that I understood that glare of him thinking, you fool, you fool. You have so much. You have this woman that you made your vows to and you have everything you wanted with three children who are precious and who love you. And you've been able to.

Robert (27:00)
Yeah.

David Magee (27:13)
do live a dream job and write books and do things like that and like what what do you want? You know, what are you putting everything you have at risk was essentially what his eyes said. Now I can tell you, oh my gosh, I was with him the week before he died and we were able to cover so much ground. He was telling me I should write my story and write. I didn't have a name for dear William then because obviously I didn't know we were going to lose him, but I was with him the week before he died and.

Robert (27:35)
Ugh. Right.

David Magee (27:43)
Um, we made peace over that moment. I was able to apologize to him for yelling at him when he needed counseling. He didn't need yelling at it. He needed me. He needed my empathy. Sure. Again, there has to be rules. There have to be rules in a household. I'm not talking about that, but he needed my compassion because he was struggling just like I was. We were a father and a son.

Robert (27:54)
Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

David Magee (28:12)
drowning on the same lake.

Robert (28:14)
Exactly. Exactly. When I was reading it, it's like, oh my gosh, they're parallel to each other. I mean, they truly are. They truly are.

David Magee (28:21)
Parallel.

And I will tell you, I will tell you that my son Hudson, who also struggled and nearly died from an overdose and thank God came back to life and it's now more than a decade sober. He did. He had no heartbeat, no, it wasn't breathing. You know, what's funny is you talk about like William and I at that time being on the same plane. What's, it's not funny. What's beautiful.

Robert (28:35)
Yeah. I was about to say he basically, he basically did die. I mean, yeah.

David Magee (28:54)
is that so my son Hudson and I are finding sobriety together at the same time and we're on the same, we're swimming on the same lake. So we're not underwater now, we're swimming and so it's been beautiful. We kind of grew up together because I was a father but he was going through what he was going through and trying to fight for it and I was too and we've been able to do it together in a lot of ways and

So I tell everybody, don't feel sorry for me. I mean, he lost a brother, I lost my son, and I cry for him every day. I probably cried three times yesterday, and I miss him so much. But I, you know, I have a son, and we have such a great close relationship, and it's deeper than a traditional father -son. I have a lot of fathers and sons that I know in recovery together, and they can relate to this. There is an extra special bond that we're on this journey together, and...

You know, I think he's got a piece of when William passed, it's almost like Hudson and I needed more strength for our journey. It's like William, it breaks our heart wasn't strong enough to make it. He didn't, but it's almost like a piece of him. Hudson took one and I took one and you know, and so we have a piece of him. And so we do this together. Cool.

Robert (30:06)
Yeah, yeah.

Hudson has to be so strong. When I read that about him getting up and doing the eulogy, it's like, oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah.

David Magee (30:19)
I don't know how I did it. I couldn't, by the way. And I just sat there and watched him and all deliver that at the funeral. And it was so hard. But he, you know, he, he, I mean, he's not been shy to say, I mean, he certainly has gained strength in his journey of sobriety from, seeing his brother struggle to grasp it, you know, and we learned a lot about like, so when Hudson was getting back on his feet after college, like his youth minister had come back in his life and helping him.

with the right friends and really doubling back on faith and understanding I can love my friends but I might have to spend all my friends but the time I spend with them will have to be different now. And I've kind of been through the same journey where I love all my friends but a lot of them I don't spend the time with them I used to because we're not in the same place. Doesn't change the love. It doesn't change the love but it does alter the...

Robert (31:09)
Right.

David Magee (31:16)
how the time spent, either how much and or where and how, you know.

Robert (31:22)
David, I'm gonna, again, I told you there's so much in this book and I limited it to only three, One is on page 208.

parents want so much good for their children that we're practically sure that we can see their rewarding future and we'll push consciously or subconsciously for the path that aligns with our vision. Wow.

David Magee (31:40)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, right. And any parent listening to that who denies that, I'm going to call BS on them. Because that's, we have two major things wrapped up in our children. Two big ones that control us often. The worst parts of us. One is fear. And that's human and natural, but we have a lot of fear.

Robert (31:56)
Ah, yeah.

David Magee (32:15)
children and fear they will fall out of their friend group fear they won't become in it rolls right into what I wrote there that you just said that fear manifest and we too often have a picture of what they should be and how they should do they should go to this high school they should have this type of friend group they should go to this college they should marry this type of person they should think this way.

Robert (32:24)
Yep.

David Magee (32:44)
You know, like, we consciously or subconsciously work to shape them in that all throughout the way. And that was William. So I got one and this is hard for me to say.

But it's the truth. William, after we found him, he'd kept a journal in treatment. He was finding some success in recovery and doing what people do, being reflective, making notes. I mean, this is a tough one.

He wrote in his journal that

My dad often made a lot of my decisions for me. You know, and that's hard. He's right. I did. And I meant, I meant the best in doing that. It was my parenting fear and my parenting picture. And I should have given him less things and more love. I loved him immensely, but.

Sometimes in trying to get that picture, I was focusing more on the things and I wish, and we worked on it at the end, I did have time, but I wish I had just cultivated the relationship more deeply and slowed down and stopped my picture and really tried to learn what was in his mind and heart more and just ask him more open -ended questions and really listen more.

Robert (34:24)
Yeah.

David Magee (34:25)
I wish I had done that and I did get chances to do that as he got into recovery and I was on my journey at the end. And so we had some magical moments. Thank goodness. But I wish I had done a lot more.

Robert (34:40)
Yeah, you know, listening is so, we as parents, we're guiding them, we're leading them, we're pushing them.

David Magee (34:49)
Yeah.

Robert (34:53)
there's so much which is listening and I'm seeing it with my two sons and I will say this I mean that sentence right there if that hopefully and I've been living it since I've since I read it I hope will make me and I'm sure it will if I live that will make me a better it will make me a it will make me a better dad I mean it will and I

David Magee (35:14)
It will change your relationship with your... There's no question.

Robert (35:22)
I've already seen that with things. I mean, I've got, I have one and not to go too much into it, but I have one that, you know, I'm pushing them one way. It's not the way he wants to go, you know, and, and, and it's, but you don't see what you have, you know, and, and, um, but, you know, you have to guide them, right. And, and, and show them certain things, but yeah. Right.

David Magee (35:32)
Yeah, yeah. And it creates attention. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

And being there as a mentor, no doubt that guiding being a mentor, there's a role. I'm not saying don't give any advice to children. But I think that think about a mentor, a mentor. Most of us have had some good ones in our life. They allow us to find our path. They do not dictate it. They'll amend a good mentor.

Robert (35:53)
Right.

David Magee (36:09)
can help coach and ferret it out, but they're not hitting us on the head with a hammer and they're not bringing that tension. They're listening and they're responding. And one of the best ways we learn about ourselves is hearing ourselves speak. Think about that. Like, like, because often if we can start hearing ourselves speak, we'll give answers that we didn't think we had right off the immediate top of our head. And so to hear ourselves speak, we have to be asked open -ended questions and we have to have a listener on the other end.

Robert (36:38)
That's a good point.

David Magee (36:39)
Somebody has to listen to us and that you so you can't really be a mentor if it's just this if you're just putting the hammer down of how They should go Where they should go and how they should be it just won't work You

Robert (36:57)
Yeah, it's also we have to let them struggle, right? I mean, so many times we want to prevent we want to want to prevent them. Now, yeah.

David Magee (37:03)
Okay, so I'm going to jump in on that one because I need to give a big exclamation point. Most important thing parents have to do, whatever happened in recent generations, they know nobody wants to let their kids struggle anymore. They want to solve their social problems. I mean, I speak at schools a lot and as parents groups at schools a lot and I had a parent asking me the other day.

in a big parent forum. They said, I mean, look, we understand what you're saying and our child battles some anxiety and but they're working so hard in sports now and they're they're working so hard in other classes, but they just got this one class and it's not going well. They're not they're working hard, but it's not going well. And I mean, he he doesn't he doesn't like that. It doesn't seem fair. What is your advice? And I said, Let him struggle.

Because that resilience that he learns will help him help his brain understand how to face challenges when he goes off to college, when he feels alone. That resilience is what will help him when he thinks, I don't actually really want to drink or smoke marijuana like my friends are. That resilience will help him manage the feeling of feeling alone when he lets the crowd go that way.

I just wanted to illustrate what you said. You hit it right, Robert. We humans, the greatest gift we have, I mean, it gives, it gives, it gives, is resilience. It is a giver, and that's the foundation of faith. Faith gives us the strength to be able to navigate the moment. Doesn't mean it's going to make it easy for us, but it gives us the strength to get through it, and through that, we cultivate resilience.

And resilience leads to pot of gold of joy. I mean, resilience is the greatest giver we humans can get. And we can only get it through the navigation of struggle.

Robert (39:03)
You know what? And resilience is synonymous with the McGee family.

David Magee (39:08)
Oh, thank you. My friends didn't give us a chance to be honest and they meant well, but things had gotten bad. We'd been divorced, got into Hudson, nearly died, our daughter's battling eating disorder. Then when William died, well, statistically, even if you hadn't already been divorced once, statistically, if you lose a child at an early age, those marriages often end in divorce. So my friends tell me now, they said, when that happened, after all that y 'all have been through, career struggles, this.

Robert (39:09)
I mean, it is, it is. Hey, I want to be respected.

David Magee (39:37)
divorce things like we didn't think you would make it. We decided at that moment that we weren't gonna lose, that we would throw down the gauntlet and fight in a different way.

Robert (39:49)
Well, it's beautiful and it's inspiration and hopefully other families can look at that as well because I know there's other ones out there struggling. Hey, I want to go into another part. Again, I'm going to keep this at a minimum. I think it, let's see, 182. What really, and you're talking to William. You said what really matters, William, is not whether or not you mess up because everyone messes up. What matters is what comes next.

David Magee (39:57)
Thank you.

Robert (40:18)
The world will provide you plenty of, I love this, the world will provide you plenty of excuses. So the easy thing is to blame circumstances and other people. but as long as one is seeking elsewhere to cast blame, there's no hope for improvement. Only when we take responsibility can we learn to respect ourselves and find peace. It's beautiful.

David Magee (40:32)
Hmm.

Thank you.

Robert (40:42)
Absolutely beautiful.

David Magee (40:44)
You know, I not even, I wrote that in Dear William and I'm just gonna, I'm so thankful for you picking that out and reading it. And I don't really have anything else to say because anything I have to say about taking personal responsibility would just repeat that. The most important thing we humans can do for ourself is stopping blaming others. Sure, we've been wronged. We have all been wronged and we will be wronged again. But you know what? We have also wronged.

Robert (41:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

David Magee (41:14)
ourselves. We have and we will again. It's about taking personal responsibility. That really is the only key to freedom. We can look out on the political sphere. We can look at who did what. Sure, it's not always perfect and it never will be. The only people who can guarantee us they're not sitting in Washington. It's just our own taking responsibility.

Robert (41:14)
That's true. That's true.

That's it. That's it. And kind of on the same page. Well, definitely on the same page, literally. But someone same context at the very bottom of that page and giving up that and this is when you were talking about your sister, Eunice and your mom and giving up that cherished resentment. The story I tell myself and which I'm a victim is truly a liberating gift.

David Magee (41:56)
Mm -hmm.

Mm.

Right, I let it go when I finished Dear William.

I decided that was the end, you know, I'd been working at getting there. And when I wrote it, that was the last step. I'd already met, marched up to it. And actually when I wrote it, that was the last step of me just going, I am free. Sure. I'm freeing them, but I am free. And it changed me. Sure.

Robert (42:35)
But it goes back to that victimhood, right? It goes back to that victimhood. And I think so many times we get stuck on victimhood and.

David Magee (42:44)
And we tend to want to do that for our children too, because we want to be their defender. So we want to give them that excuse. It's so and so's fault. The teacher, the coaches, but you know, sometimes you just don't get to play even if you are good. I'm sorry. That's life. That's life. Sometimes it's not their fault, but sure. Sometimes you just don't get to play, you know, and maybe for good reason, maybe not. And blame is dangerous.

Robert (42:46)
Yeah. Yep.

Right. Right. Yeah.

Yeah, and that victimhood becomes your identity.

David Magee (43:14)
because you obsess over it. And it will creep in. Let's take father as an example. Any point in life we find it, you're going to take it home. If you start casting blame, you will take it home. It will impact your relationship with your spouse. It will impact your relationship with your children. I promise you, you will be more inclined to take in more alcohol. You will be more inclined to, it will cost you in your faith. Blame.

Robert (43:16)
Right, right, right, but -

David Magee (43:43)
is debilitating.

Robert (43:44)
I agree. And, and, um, you know, I think letting go, as you said, letting go of that victim hood is so freeing because I mean, it's easy to right and, and I feel like society today, um, I don't want to say everybody's the victim, but it's so easy to latch onto it. It's, it's so easy to latch on.

David Magee (44:08)
Yeah, we've gotten pretty obsessed by...

Robert (44:12)
Yeah, it's so easy to latch on to being a victim. Hey, I want you to paint me a picture of this. Um, it's when you guys were in New Mexico and you've been driving and it's, I think 18 below zero. I didn't, I didn't bring the notes with me. I think it's 18 below 16 below zero, which I can't, I cannot imagine you and William got out of the car and, and you guys were traveling across country traveling to California.

David Magee (44:28)
16 below zero and not wind chill 16 degrees below zero.

Who's Cone?

Robert (44:42)
It was just the two of you. And what a journey that was for one. And then you guys get out of the car, middle of the night, running around and you guys both looking up, you yelling, thank you, Lord. And gosh, you get me. And then.

David Magee (44:47)
Amazing.

Yeah

Yeah.

My life, yeah, we were arm in arm. We gathered arms at the back of the car, looked into those stars. I've never seen so many stars. It never shined so bright. I've never seen anything like it.

Robert (45:14)
What was that feeling then with William and everything? Is that something that still is just so clear and so strong in your heart?

David Magee (45:16)
Yeah, it is because honestly it was the moment I really understood God in my life and it changed me and to have it arm -in -arm with my son looking up into those stars

You know, I'll never forget it. I've never seen anything like it and probably never will. And I had my male ego. I can, there's a good spot to say it on this. I was kind of in, I went to church and like I said, I taught a Sunday school class. I was kind of embarrassed to claim faith fully. Kind of felt not quite manly. So I kept faith. I would say, I believe.

but I kept faith and go through some check boxes, but I kept faith way over here on another shelf. And when we looked up in those stars, I put the magnets together of belief and faith. And I saw a world that's bigger than me and that helped me for God find a lot of the forgiveness. And it helped me find my personal responsibility and freedom because I, it helped me understand. I can't change everything about this world and I can't overpower everything. I can just,

love myself and love my children and love my family and do the best I can. And that was incredibly freeing. And you know, to be able to do that, we gathered arms, we hooked them together and laid back and honestly, it didn't just freeze in my nostrils at 16 below, it was freezing on the way to my nostrils and I could just feel it just like searing my lungs in a good way.

And it's like you could see because when you have no humidity in there, I mean, it's like literal zero and there's no light pollution. You could see all the way into God's eyes and heart, you know?

Robert (47:10)
Right.

It was, it was, it was beautiful. I mean, and, and, you know, it started with you guys running around the running around the car. And, but I, I, when I read this, it's like, it's two broken men that are struggling. I mean, struggling just, you know, so hard and they get out and they're, you basically have become kids again, running around in 16 below zero. Um, and looking up.

David Magee (47:41)
Yeah.

Robert (47:55)
And beautiful the way you wrote it. Beautiful. Absolutely. Like I put myself right there like as a third person watching you guys and looking up and seeing that and you know, thank you Lord and William. Woo. Thank you Lord. It's just it is you know that I thank you for writing that but that was that was beautiful. I mean it really was and

David Magee (47:59)
Thank you.

Thank you.

Beer.

And you know, people ask me, how do you, how have you been able to overcome losing your son? And I cling to moments like that. He's still with me, you know, I can't touch him, but that a moment like that we did together and I'll never forget that. Never.

Robert (48:38)
David, can I ask you something and you can decline it? Um, you described a lot about William, but what more, like, uh, what more can you tell me about him? Like that would really want to know. Cause he sounds like just an amazing, amazing kid. Like God gifted him so much and you know, good looking kid, talented, very intelligent, you know, social.

David Magee (48:46)
Yeah, so a good thing I could say, he was. Yeah. Yeah. I know. But there was one thing. So he.

You know, you remember even I remember. So I know anybody listening remembers like some of those first middle school parties you have to go to and you just like excited, but nervous. And it's just awkward. I'll never forget William. I was standing behind him as he was walking in and his hands were this kind of first middle school dance. He was so excited to go. And I remember there was a pack of girls over the corner, but his hands were just.

fidgeting so much and he just was walking straight up and down like he's a board and that's not uncommon for a lot of middle school students, but I think it was very indicative of him. He had some social anxiety and he wanted it, but so, you know, like in high school, he didn't have that going to parties because he didn't go to any with a clear mind and he sailed right in.

And it worked for him for a while until it stopped working until it began. Your brain can't get enough and it's trying to grab more and more and more. And you know, that's what substance use disorder is. I mean, it, it'll take from you and take from you. Um, that was William. I mean, he, he did have so much in, in all the ways, but in that way, he had a real anxiety and a, uh, clumsiness.

in social settings. And look, I talk to a lot of high school, I see high school students like that all the time. They tell me they had been to a, they don't go to school sober, meaning weed. I mean, they'll use it sun up to sun down and nobody knows. Their parents will tell me, well, I know what's going on. I'm like, no, you don't. Nobody knows it. I mean, they'll pass drug tests and they know what to do, but same thing. And so they're not going anywhere with a clear mind. And so they don't know how to feel and they don't.

Robert (50:52)
Cheers.

David Magee (51:07)
learn how to develop resilience because they aren't having to manage their feelings. They're just numb. And William was that way. And he, he numbed those anxieties that he felt and he couldn't get back from it.

Robert (51:13)
you

Um.

I know we're kind of wrapping up, but it seems for you as a child, it seems that you felt entirely, I could be wrong, but it seems like you felt very alone. You didn't know who your real family was. Um, you know, and, but that all changed. Um,

David Magee (51:36)
Oh, I did.

Robert (51:45)
which is just beautiful in and of itself, which is a story in and of itself from your early or your early childhood to then being able to find, cause you were adopted. I don't want to give too much away, but then to be able to go and find your original family basically and brothers and sisters and just, Oh my God. I mean,

David Magee (52:06)
Yeah!

Now I got this huge, I have more family than anybody I know now, which is insane. It's truly a miracle.

Robert (52:13)
It's crazy reading that even.

Yeah, I mean, it's and then the wedding and everything else and it's.

David Magee (52:24)
And we can give that part away. I mean, I had a half, I had a, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I'll tell that. Hey, if, look, it's, if I give a key part of the way of the book, so all my life, you know, I'm looking, William was, my son William was the first blood I ever knew on this earth when I was 24 years old. And then I went many years, I didn't know who my birth father was and I didn't know. And, you know, one day I find them and it was just relatively recently in 2019. And,

Robert (52:26)
Okay, will you tell that? Do you mind? I'm reluctant to.

David Magee (52:54)
Um, I, when I found them, I'm like, what, who? And just six months before, um, my half brother had come to my daughter's wedding. She had bonded with him at Camp Alpine in Mentone, Alabama, a Christian camp that a lot of listeners will know. Um, well, my half brother was from Louisiana and we'd ended up.

having the same small Christian camp in Alabama. My daughter had been there as a counselor, working as a nanny, keeping the camp owners' children. And there was a camp doctor there, and she'd gotten sick and they bonded. And she invited him to her wedding. Because she said, well, this doctor was so nice to me and I really liked him. He had something special. Six months later, and he came to the wedding. He thought, well, hey, you invite me, I'm coming.

Robert (53:46)
and his family, right?

David Magee (53:48)
He and his all six children, wife and all six children, and we're like, that's so nice. This doctor came, no idea. Six months later, we find out that was my brother. Unbelievable. And now we talk, you know, it's like I've known him my whole life. It's just amazing. And there's even more. It wasn't just that. I mean, I found out one of my closest friends had a close relationship with my birth father and he got to know him because he went and took a job.

Robert (53:51)
No idea that's your half brother.

David Magee (54:17)
moved away, took a job that I told him about and told him to take. True story. I just found that out not too long ago. I told my friend to go take this job. He did, made a whole life move, moved to another city at midlife. First client, he makes friends. My birth father was a school superintendent and I never got to meet him. He died from a fall and...

Anyway, they bond and I send my friend down to this job and he meets my father who I never got to meet and they have a relationship and a special relationship and that's just absolutely insane. But you know, there are miracles on this earth that still happen. That's what I'm here to say.

Robert (54:57)
That is the truth, and you guys have certainly witnessed that as well numerous times. I mean, you have. Hey, tell me this. The William McGee Center at Ole Miss, tell me about it.

David Magee (55:09)
Yeah, so we, yeah, we knew we wanted to, we knew that it was so important to make a difference. And, but what we knew is, look, we have to reach young people differently. And infirmary or student health services, as you call it today, is not enough for students. They need a place for their heart and mind and soul, like beyond just the counseling center, beyond something really focused on substance misuse and a lot that they go through.

to educate them and support in a different way. You don't get in trouble, it doesn't go on your record, and it's a place that is safe and specifically trained around this. And so we created the William McGee Center. It launched in 2019. We've just hired an amazing director now, Dr. Nick McAfee, who's a adolescent researcher and child psychiatrist. He's just amazing. And I'm so proud of him because,

We don't have all the answers there, but we're searching for them by listening to students and really working to find the answers. And so we do find them and we've saved lives. I mean, I had a student knock on my door a year or two ago and had a gift in his hands. And he's like, you saved my life. I just felt like I should give you something, you know? And I cried. I mean, I cried. I've had more of those, but yeah. So, you know, we just have to figure out how to do it different in this country. And it starts with the conversation with our young people.

We have to have a lot of open -ended questions to listen to them and then we have to be able to give them education that is not preachy and is not just saying no, because they're human. If no only worked, we'd have fixed this a long time ago. No doesn't work. It doesn't work. So the William McGee Center named after my late son at Ole Miss. And look, I think if we do this right, a lot of the work we're doing, we might be able to put those centers on other college campuses. We're not done. We're just getting started. We're just getting started.

Robert (56:48)
Right.

That's what I was going to ask you.

You know, and it's so needed. And I think even more so it's going to be. I mean, when you look at the, as you said, the mental health crisis, these, yeah, absolutely it is. Absolutely it is. It's not, it's not going anywhere. And then wanted to ask you this. Is there anything else that you want to, any news you want to tell us about?

David Magee (57:12)
Yeah.

Yes.

We have a crisis. It's a crisis. That's right.

Yeah. So you have been such a fan of Dear William, I will tell you, first of all, thank you. And I, I pre that means, you know, as a writer, you always hope somebody would want to read something you wrote, but this is different because that I'm just trying to reach, to be honest, I really hoped I would reach fathers and help them just, even if they don't face the same exact thing, just help them process and think about parenting and marriage and faith. And thank you.

Robert (57:37)
You

David Magee (58:03)
because that means a lot to me. And so the bonus is, I'll tell you the real exciting news, just made a handshake deal with the director and a producer, came to my hometown of Oxford and spent three days with me. And we got to get through the contracts and everything, but we're on a fast track to turn Dear William into a movie. I mean, they hope to get shooting this fall and it will happen in Oxford. And, you know, Hollywood as always, whoever knows you run into bumps, but I wouldn't share this if I didn't feel.

pretty confident this is happening and really exciting stuff.

Robert (58:37)
That is wonderful. Congratulations. So who's going to play you? Do you get to pick? Do you get to pick who you want? Like.

David Magee (58:40)
Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't, a lot of it will depend on what their budget is, so stay tuned on that. No, I haven't even gotten that far, but let's just hope, let's hope they're really good.

Robert (58:47)
Do you have anybody in mind?

Hey, and also speaking engagements. You did touch on that. I know you do a lot of speaking engagements. Who do you speak with? And if groups are listening to...

David Magee (59:03)
I do. Yeah, I speak to a lot of parents groups and a lot of communities. I've been to communities like Pensacola, Florida, where I do a community type form where we're like, how do we get ourselves out of this? I speak in a lot of schools and a lot of parents groups. It's got used to be they would tell me we can't get big crowds out for parents groups. We're packing in three and 400 a lot of times at schools from Baltimore to Mobile, Alabama to, you know, Waco, Texas. And it's exciting. You can find more about

me at daviddmagee .com. And look, I mean, mostly look, I've got the book, as you mentioned, Things Have Changed What Every Parent, it's a guide book. And then there's my memoir, Dear William. And look, I don't care whether I personally sell any more books, but I wrote these books just to make us all more thoughtful and learn more, be able to have more information, to just be more thoughtful about ourselves and our children and our lives. And so.

It's not going to hurt my feelings if anybody wants to read those.

Robert (1:00:03)
and church church groups as well.

David Magee (1:00:06)
Oh, indeed. I'm doing a big one at a church group coming up in third week of March. And I think actually our church groups, that's probably where our biggest opportunity is. Churches did, had a big movement in the marriage and family. Once the divorce rate shot up in the seventies, they dug in the marriage arena and really made a dent. We're now at the point to where the family and student and the family mental health and substance misuse arena.

It's time for churches to dig in in that way. So I'm finding that's one of my bigger audiences since I'm a person of faith and I write my books from a faith perspective.

Robert (1:00:33)
There you go.

That's beautiful. That's beautiful. And look, David, thank you. Thank you for your time. Is there any, is there anything else that you want to promote or tell us about?

David Magee (1:00:47)
Thank you so much, Robert.

No, man, I just all I got is a big thank you right back to you. I appreciate you doing this podcast. I appreciate you believing in my story and being so passionate about it.

Robert (1:00:59)
Man, and I tell you what, I thank you for making me a better dad, honestly. And I really do. And for helping other dads. And that one quote about what we put on our children. And that's huge. And I just, I thank you. I thank you from myself and also from a lot of parents. So thank you. And I'm sorry for everything you've had to go through. But I do thank you. So.

David Magee (1:01:07)
Thank you.

Thank you.

Robert (1:01:28)
David, thanks again for being on and look, thank you all for listening to dad dad's podcast. You can find us on apple or Spotify as well as on YouTube and Instagram. And don't forget to hit that like and subscribe button and we will see you all next time.