Navigating Transitions and Emotions: Insights from a Divorced Family - Interview with Bella Duncan and her father, Craig Duncan

In this episode Robert interviews Bella Duncan (from www.akidwithtwohomes.com ) and her father Craig Duncan about their experiences as a divorced family. They discuss the emotions and challenges that arise during the transition between houses, particularly during pick-up and drop-off. Bella shares her perspective as a child of divorce, highlighting the mix of excitement and anxiety she feels during these transitions. Craig emphasizes the importance of being in a good state of mind and focusing on the well-being of the children during these moments. They also discuss how to handle holidays and vacations, emphasizing the need for flexibility and focusing on the positive aspects of each situation. In this part of the conversation, Bella and her dad discuss the days when they miss each other extra and how they cope with it. Bella shares her experience of waking up in the middle of the night and worrying about her dad, and how her mom would comfort her. She emphasizes the importance of parents acknowledging and validating their child's feelings of missing the other parent, rather than dismissing or minimizing them. Craig adds that it's important for parents to accept that their children love and adore both parents equally, and to create a safe space for them to express their emotions. They also discuss the importance of maintaining a lifelong relationship with their children and putting their needs first.

• Transitions between houses can be emotionally challenging for children of divorce, as they experience a mix of excitement and anxiety.
• Parents should strive to be in a good state of mind during pick-up and drop-off, focusing on the well-being of the children and creating a positive atmosphere.
• Flexibility is key when it comes to holidays and vacations, allowing for celebrations to take place on different days and making the most of the time spent with each parent.
• Children of divorce may have moments of longing for a 'normal' family, but it's important for parents to remind them that their unique family dynamic can still be fulfilling and something to be proud of.
• Open communication and empathy are crucial in helping children navigate the challenges of divorce and ensuring they feel supported and loved by both parents. Children may have days when they miss their other parent extra, and it's important for parents to acknowledge and validate their feelings.
• Parents should create a safe space for their children to express their emotions and offer support and comfort.
• It's crucial for parents to accept that their children love and adore both parents equally, and to foster a positive co-parenting relationship.
• Maintaining a lifelong relationship with children requires effort and understanding, and it's important to prioritize their needs.
• Parents should focus on the well-being and happiness of their children, even if it means putting aside personal conflicts or differences.

Transcript

Robert (00:00)
Hey everyone, welcome back to the dad to dad's podcast. And being a divorced parent, I can attest that it isn't always easy and it definitely presents its own challenges. And if you're like me, there's probably times you also wonder what it's like for your kids. So I thought I would ask an expert and bring back a former guest, Bella Duncan from A Kid with Two Homes. Bella, welcome back and great to see you.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (00:27)
So good to be back Robert. Thanks so much for having me back. And this time with my dad.

Robert (00:32)
I know I was about to say we also have a special guest. Would you like to introduce that special guest?

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (00:38)
Yes, I'd like to introduce everybody to my dad Craig Duncan. It's so exciting to actually have him on this podcast with me and talking about some really important stuff.

Craig Duncan (00:46)
Yeah.

Robert (00:48)
Craig, welcome.

Craig Duncan (00:49)
Thanks so much, Robert. And thanks for that nice introduction, Bell But it's really nice to be here. And, uh, and, uh, you know, it was great to listen to the last podcast that you did with Bella. I think it was, it was really great. And, uh, and the comments were wonderful as well. So yeah, I'm very fortunate to be here today.

Robert (01:06)
Well, Bella's a jewel and you have raised a jewel. You definitely have. And you had a big, we were talking about it before we started recording. You did have a big part of that. And I've got a few questions for you guys. I thought this would be a pretty good episode for parents and just to hear both perspectives, you know, as we go through this and what it's like for the kids, what it's like for the parents. But Craig, last time Bella was on,

She made several comments that really touched a lot of dads. I received a lot of DMs. I received definitely a lot of comments, all positive, all, you know, everything from this. I hope my kid speaks about me one day like this. I aspire to have my child speak about me like this. You know, some of her comments were

you're the person that she looks up to. Another was being the person that she is today because of you. You know, that she, a lot of the way she is, it's because of you. And also realizing what you went through in her childhood. And just, when you hear that, and you hear that from her heart, and you see her speak those, what, how does that make you feel?

Craig Duncan (02:03)
That's it.

Well, when I saw that clip and I listened to it, I, yeah, honestly, it just made me feel, yeah, my life, if my life ended tomorrow, I'd end it with a smile on my face. Because, you know, ultimately, that's just what you wanna do, isn't it? You wanna do the best by your children and if they can speak like that. And Bella's very, very forthcoming with her praise and.

and that was just lovely. So when I saw that, yeah, it just, yeah, it just brought tears to my eyes. And yeah, it just, yeah, I just felt like that. I felt like if life ended tomorrow, I'm okay.

Robert (02:58)
You know what? It, I will say this, it did mine too. And I'm not her dad, but just, uh, you know, I'm one of those that, gosh, if my two sons speak about me one day, even half this good, I will have felt like my parenting was a success. And, um, so I know that had to really touch you when you heard that. So, Hey, so I want to,

Craig Duncan (03:19)
Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. I was just saying like, and I wasn't, I haven't been perfect at all. And, uh, and there's, there's times that I suppose we'll chat about where it was. Yeah. It was really difficult and, and I wish I could have done better, but, uh, but to, to get through on the other side and to hear that, yeah, it does make you, you feel very good.

Robert (03:21)
Go ahead.

But you know what, Bella, sorry to leave you out for a minute, but, um, Bella even addressed that, you know, she even said that, you know, he hasn't been perfect, but he's been transparent and nobody's perfect. And I think that's the big thing with the kids too, right? Is being transparent and let them know, Hey, I screwed up. I'm not perfect, but you learn from it and you make changes and you do, you know, I think a lot of it is admitting that and it's what we're teaching them too. Right. So, cause

Craig Duncan (03:52)
Yeah.

Robert (04:10)
Believe it or not, belly, you're going to screw up at times. Probably, probably not as much as, as his parents, but

Um, but I wanted to go into, um, one of the questions I had for you guys was when the children are transitioning between houses, like Bella, when you were going from your mom's to your dad or your dad's, your mom and Craig, when the kids were leaving and going to their moms, what were the feelings and Bella, you first, like, what kind of feelings did, were there any feelings that got brought up? What were the difficulties too?

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (04:42)
Yeah, so I refer to this transitioning period, but specifically pickup drop off because whilst it's a

big topic in itself, going from one home to the other. I think a very specific moment for kids of divorce is the actual pick up and drop off moment where both parents have to come together to almost exchange the kids. And there's very distinct moments in my life that I remember based off where our pick up drop off spot was. So for quite a significant amount of time, our pick up drop off spot was a particular park up the road from mom's place.

from our home at mom's and that is where I have a lot of that memory of what it felt like to transition from mom's to dad's or dad's to mom's. And I think for a kid of divorce, and I've spoken about this before, it's quite an exciting time because you get to see your other parent. It's also a sad time because you're leaving the other parent.

And then you've got all the emotions of what you're feeling coming from both parents. You know, you know, dad might be really excited that you're going there, but mom might be quite sad that she's, you know, having to give the kids away for the next couple of days. So then you've got this mix of feelings as a kid of divorce, excitement, but anxiety. And is there going to be potential conflict at this pickup drop off spot? You know, it just depends where you feel as though your parents co-parenting relationship is at the time.

something quite tense coming up, so you're a bit worried that they might have a little bit of a bicker while you're there. Otherwise, you might feel easy going that it might be okay. And then there's little things, logistical things that come into play. We might be running 10 minutes late. I hope mom's not upset that we're running 10 minutes late. I hope dad's not upset that he's been waiting there. He got there half an hour early because he's so excited to see us and we're half an hour late. And that might not be anybody's fault.

but that can lead to that anxiety provoking kind of feeling that kids of divorce feel. So I think those particular moments are such an array of emotions, especially for kids, and they definitely feed off the emotions of their parents at that time too.

Robert (06:54)
Did Bella, did you feel a lot of weight on you? Did you feel responsible at all? Just even though it's out of your control, but did you?

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (07:00)
At times.

Yeah, it definitely was out of my control and obviously as a kid it's difficult to understand that. And sometimes it wouldn't necessarily be that my parents actively put the responsibility on me at all. They would have organised the logistics, where we're meeting, what time we're meeting, etc. But sometimes even knowing about those logistics or being at that age, that 8, 9, 10 years old age, where you know that you're supposed to be there at 4.30 and it's 4.45, you know, you start to take on that responsibility.

even though nobody told you to. So it's about recognizing that sometimes your kids might feel responsible, even though you're not trying to make them, but sticking to looking after the logistics as a whole and communicating those logistics. And hey, I know we're 15 minutes late, but I've already spoken to dad or I've already spoken to mom that we're going to be, and they're all OK with that. That can help kids.

Robert (07:56)
Craig, what about you? Do you remember those times? I know it's been a few years, but.

Craig Duncan (08:00)
Yeah, no, absolutely I do, Robert. And I think one of the key things for me was that I knew that going to very much the pick up that I had to be in a really good state of mind. So I would make sure that my self care was, you know, I'd exercised, I had time to just be calm and so driving there and to realise that ultimately it's about the kids.

That's the hardest thing and to move away from your difficulties with your kid's parent. And I wanted to always go to those pickups in a really good state of mind. It's interesting, Bella and Luke's mom, she's always running late anyway. So I would try to remember that.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (08:45)
Yeah.

Craig Duncan (08:48)
you know, this wasn't a wasn't something that was really negative. It was just how it was. Um, but the biggest point about that was I had to go there calm. I, I had to be, uh, I'm the parent in this situation. The transition is, is difficult for everyone, but particularly the kids. When the focus is on the kids, that's all. So you don't want to see during that period of time, because then you're going to spend a couple of hours, you know, ruminating on that where I just wanted to be calm.

Get there and whatever happened from there is just be, whatever the situation is, just be calm and then go and enjoy our time.

Robert (09:25)
Yeah, because a lot of it's on us, the parents, right? And it's, if we're anxious, nervous, upset, and we're picking them up, well, you kind of know you already have the roadmap for how that visit's going to be. Or at least the front end of that visit. And, um, you know, I think about with my kids when they're going from one house to another, if I leave them upset or leave them, uh, sad or I'm anxious or mad or whatever it may be, well.

they're going to take that to their moms. And that's the last thing I want them to see is, or the last, the, that's, you know, the last feeling I want them to have is something of anxious, of nervousness, of being, you know, sad, uh, by any means, but, so you guys gave some pretty good tips. Um, you definitely did. You know, I received some messages and I can also say I've had this, um, and Craig, I'm curious about you. Um,

One of the hardest things, well, actually, I'm gonna read a quote from a guy that sent this to me, was one of the hardest things for him is when his kids are with him and they're going to their moms, they're going to the other parent, and they don't want to leave. They don't want to leave him. They don't want to go back to their moms and just comforting them and...

putting on that happy face and letting them know, hey, we're gonna be together next weekend or I'll see you on Wednesday or whatever it may be. Did you ever experience anything like that, Craig?

Craig Duncan (10:53)
Look, you know, I was very fortunate that the kids were really positive and, and we had good communication throughout the week as well. So I would always try, so say it was on a Saturday afternoon, more than likely I was going to see the kids, you know, if I went just to see them after school or, you know, when they were getting the bus or they were getting picked up or, or they had sport training.

that I would catch up with them. So I think it really comes back to the fact that I wanted the kids to know I'm 100% okay. I think children wanna know that you're okay. If they know you're okay, they will absolutely be okay. So I never wanted them to think, oh, poor dad. Dad's gonna sit here and it's gonna be there. It wasn't that, that I had things to do and...

And I think that's a tricky one because you want to say that, and we should be saying that, but then you sort of might don't want the kids to think, oh, you're fine without them in a negative way. It's more that balance. You go, I'm okay. I've got stuff to do. I've got work. I've got this planned. I've got things to do. You're always in my heart.

But wherever you are, just love your life. That was the message I wanted to get to the kids. You know, just love your life wherever it is, but don't be living it thinking, oh, how's dad? I never wanted that.

Robert (12:16)
Right.

No, no, that, that is something that I never wanted them to, uh, I asked, so don't, I don't want them feeling sorry for me. Like, Oh, dad's at home depressed because we're not with him. That's, uh, dad's okay. Does dad miss you? Yeah, of course. Does, you know, does dad always, you know, is, is he happy every moment that he has with you? Yeah, he loves being around you guys, but, um, you know,

Craig Duncan (12:38)
Yeah.

Robert (12:49)
Dad's also okay, because I totally agree with what you said. I mean, I agree that if we show them that we're okay, they'll be okay. I think that's a good point. Bella, anything you wanted to add to that?

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (13:02)
Yeah, definitely. I mean that particular conversation or that particular type of communication, the I'm okay and I will see you next time and I'm really excited for that but go in and enjoy your time with your other parent and go enjoy your life generally.

and trying to communicate that your life shouldn't be dictated by your parents' feelings, that is absolutely pivotal to your kid feeling like they can just live their life irrespective of their parents' divorce. Because the reality is, is that your kids see more than you say, and they know how you're feeling, and they are empathetic, because I often think that kids of divorce are quite mature and empathetic in ways that, you know, they see emotions in ways that I believe kids who come from.

you know, parents who stay together, they might, you know, see conflicts for sure, but I think kids have divorced see a lot of emotion and so they're very receptive to how you're feeling. And so that communication that I'm going to be okay, of course I'm going to miss you and finding that balance like dad said, is absolutely vital because you can still acknowledge that your parent will miss you, but you can enjoy your time and that's so pivotal to transition time.

get a whole heap of time with one parent or the other. And so by the time you have transition day, that's an entire day. And if that's kind of mucked up by these crazy emotions, that's a day wasted in a way. So that quality time that you're trying to spend with your other parent can be taken away by, you know, some really simple.

miscommunications but putting everything out there and having you know sometimes those mature conversations in a kid appropriate and age appropriate way is how your kids are going to know okay this isn't my responsibility and they're going to be okay so I should live my life.

Robert (14:55)
I think that is so big Bella with it's not their responsibility and taking that weight off them. I agree. And you know, you said something about, kids from divorced families being more attuned, more aware of the emotions. I could not agree more. I think, I think they really are. I think they really do see, they're probably on the lookout. I don't know the psychology behind it, but they probably are on the lookout and making sure that the parent they're with or the parent, you know, that their parents are okay.

Life's not going to change maybe any more than it is. But I do think they are certainly, you know, more attuned, more hypervigilant of their surroundings of their parents and their parents' wellbeing.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (15:33)
Absolutely, and I will say that I think...

first borns especially, the older siblings, often taking that protective stance for any younger siblings. And so they're even more hyper aware of not only their parents but also their younger siblings and trying to protect them so that they may not have to feel what the older sibling is feeling. And I think that that's a really touchy subject because I get emotional when I talk about my younger brother because I just love him so much and I always had that perspective of just as long as Luke doesn't have to

feel certain things, then I'm happy to kind of take the brunt of it. And that was helped by my parents communicating that you don't have to, it's not your responsibility, and then we can both enjoy our time with the other parent.

Robert (16:23)
It's great. I want to jump to holidays and vacations. I imagine there were times when, whether it was Christmas, whether it was summer vacations, when you guys weren't together, maybe Craig, when Bella was with her mom or, you know, Bella, maybe you weren't with your dad, or maybe you were on vacation and.

You were doing something with your mom and it was like, oh my gosh, this would be so much fun to do with dad or my gosh, dad would love to see this place with us or different. Can you guys think about times like that and just how did you handle that?

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (16:55)
Can you go dad?

Craig Duncan (16:55)
I think, yeah, I think, look, it was just general. Every, you know, all the holidays were, we were pretty lucky because they were sort of split even, but like Christmas is a big one and that can be quite stressful, but we pretty much organized that from the start where I always knew Christmas was really important to Bell and Luke's mum.

and they had a really good Christmas. They had traditions in that Christmas space and it was the morning and that's all right. Look I think in those orders that you get, the court orders that was meant to be that we'd switch every year but there was no need to because even though ever since the kids were one and three I never woke up with them on Christmas morning. Like you've got to take a step back Robert and go

Yeah, so what? You know what I mean? Like, I'm gonna see them later. Just because it's not Christmas morning, Christmas afternoon, or even if it's the 26th or the 27th, I really feel it's, I can sit back now and go, it's just a day. Let's not get caught up in that sort of thinking. And so I would see them in the... Look, I was always excited and I was also a bit stressed on Christmas.

you know, in the afternoon that they would be there. Yeah, and, but, but it's a good day. So you just want to make, make the most of it. I think if I'm talking about a vacation, there was one I remember quite clearly when, Jen, the kid's mom took them to Disneyland. And that's a big thing for Australian kids, you know, at Disney World and like a US trip. And that's, that's a, that's a great trip. So I was really excited for them.

Robert (18:14)
Which, what parent isn't though?

Craig Duncan (18:40)
But it was an extensive period of time. But I remember the kids, they got stuck in LA coming back. And so there was issues with the flight. So it was like they were meant to be back on a date and then another date and then another date and they just weren't on there. But they were worried that I would be worried where I was like, okay, I understand that. Let's, you're trying to get back. Your mom's trying to get you back. It's gonna be a few days later.

just enjoy that space and don't get stressed about it. Because again, it gets back to, hey, I'm okay. You just be okay and enjoy where you're at.

You'd remember that one, pal.

Robert (19:18)
That's good. Bella, what about you?

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (19:20)
Yeah, I'll jump on that, that actual specific trip because dad's right, Luke and I, we, we were stuck in LA and mum was stressed because we couldn't get on this flight and Luke and I were like, oh my God, we haven't seen dad, dad's going to be upset that we're not back, mum, like, we, you know, we're not supposed to be here, we're supposed to be home. And I think at that time, like I recall mum communicating with dad that

you know, this was the situation and this is what like, you know, we're trying to get back this and that. And I remember thinking of worried dad, you know, won't understand this and that. And I remember dad called us one night, my mom called dad to speak to us. And I'm just like, it's okay. You know, the main thing is you guys are safe and you're going to get home. And I remember like as soon as we got home, mom took us to

I remember it was like the airport caught so burning the lane or something and I just remember running to dad and being like, I miss you so much but he was so okay that it was a couple days later than what it was meant to be and it's that thing that sometimes kids of divorce make situations up in their head because we catastrophize.

Craig Duncan (20:16)
Yeah.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (20:35)
you know, and there might be a little remnant of a memory that we have where conflict started. And so then we attribute that to every situation in the future. And sometimes it takes the adults to say, you know what guys, it's okay. You're, you're catastrophizing here that, um, you know, kids can be like, okay, I can be the kid and I can just focus on getting home. Like, you know, that that's not a problem. And sometimes, you know, dad use the example of Christmas, Christmas is

is a hard day I'm sure for mom and dad because they only get us half the day but for Luke and I it's the busiest day of the year because we're going between so many different places. It's also a joyful time because we get to see everybody but you know and we exactly and you know everybody used to say when we're growing up oh you're so lucky to have divorced parents because you get twice the amount of gifts and I used to think yeah no like that's

Robert (21:22)
And you get extra gifts, right? Ha ha ha.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (21:35)
That is not, that's not the pro. There's other things that go on that day as well. But, you know, Luke and I, you know, we spend a lot of time together, but we're also grateful that we get to see mom and dad on that day. And it's really about making those emotional days. Those pickup drop-offs on Christmas are very, they're much more emotional than a typical pickup drop-off, you know, because they're a special day. And, you know, I recall.

Robert (21:40)
Yeah.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (22:00)
my mom being upset when we have to leave her on Christmas and being empathetic about that. Of course, you know, of course you want to be with your kids all day every day. And I know dad was waiting for us, you know, for that afternoon to roll around. But the main thing was to try and focus and try to enjoy where you were at that time and being present because it's your Christmas too. It's not just about getting places and seeing people. It's about enjoying that special day. So...

making those holidays about the kid again, and really coming back to what is the meaning of this day, and how can I remove myself as the adult, and just really try to help my kids have a good day.

Robert (22:41)
Yeah. And Craig, you said something earlier about, I can't remember if it was Christmas or something and you know, maybe you're celebrating it later on in the afternoon or the next day. I mean, that's one thing we've learned to do is I'll tell the boys, whether it's, I don't know, here in the U S we have Thanksgiving and different holidays. It's, we don't have to, we can celebrate it on the day before the day after. I mean, Christmas, maybe we celebrate it, you know, a week before.

when you're with me and, and you know, or the day after or whatever it may be. Yeah, it may not be that Christmas day, but yeah, it's, it's okay. We can, I think being flexible helps out. And again, it's kind of how we, how we present it. And I think, I think that was a really, really good point. And

Bella you too, talking about the being so attuned or maybe the kids from divorced families being more sensitive to that. I think that is extremely true with that. And I think about when my children are with their mom and they've gone on some good trips with me, they've gone on some...

You know, good and fantastic trips with their mom and have seen, you know, I was thinking about when they go to Costa Rica or wherever I'm so excited that they're going, that they're having that opportunity, you know, and if they tell me, oh, well today we didn't get to do much because it's raining or it's this and that, I mean, that's a bummer for me. Cause I'm thinking, wow, you're in this. Like I want them to, yeah, of course I wish I was with them, but if I can't be with them, I'm happy they're having the opportunity to enjoy that.

And, and, you know, I just wonder, you know, expressing that. I think, I mean, you guys tell me, I think it's probably the one of the, I'm not patting myself on the back, but I think that's what's parents. What we have to do. Do you all agree?

Craig Duncan (24:32)
Yeah, absolutely. Robert, I think that, you know, the underlying philosophy here for, you know, for the dads is, is really that discipline, the self-discipline to say, look, we all say we love our kids and we've got to really love them. And look, you know, I speak a lot to divorced dads and, and some of the situations are incredibly difficult. So I'm absolutely empathetic to this.

They weren't, I was in a fortunate situation in some ways that I knew Bella and Luke's mom adored them and would always very much try and do the best for them. So I was fortunate. And I also had regular access to the kids. So I get that, that not all the dads listening to this have exactly the same.

But whatever situation we're in, we have to work very hard to be disciplined and to understand what we can control, what we can't control. And it's not always going to be easy. Okay. It's, it's not because, uh, but it, it's how I look at it is my kids' life was different to my growing up, but I used to always say to them, remember, but I used to say, be proud of your life.

Okay, be proud that yeah, it's not to hide from, your parents are not together. That's okay, so it's different. It's different for a lot of us dads, that it might be different from what we view, but that's okay, let's not put the life in a box. And once I started to really understand that, that this is just different to maybe my friends' kids and that sort of stuff, but it can still be great.

Just because it's different doesn't mean it has to be negative. It can be still wonderful. And it's just for us to be really disciplined in our understanding. And I used to say to myself, you love your kids. Okay, love them how they need to be loved. And look, it wasn't always, I didn't always get it right, but I kept trying to think that. Because I think sometimes...

I'm one of the most competitive people in the world, Rob. And sometimes when I felt like it was getting into a competition, you know, like adding up, oh, how many hours, you know, like this sort of thing, or that's not fair, you've got this amount of access, I've got that as soon as you go, that you, that's a misery waiting to happen. So.

Robert (26:48)
Yes. Right.

You yes, you ha you have to stop. I was talking about the, I was talking to somebody the other day about that. Like as soon as you find yourself being competitive or whether it's with gifts or time, that is a warning right there to back off and you need to reassess where you're coming from and that is, that's not a healthy place for you and definitely not for the kids and Bella, you talked about it last time you guys can see right through it.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (27:26)
Oh, God yeah. And that's the thing, like, it's hard because you can see right through it to the extent that you know where it's coming from, which is actually a place of good. Because your parent just wants to be the best thing for you. And, you know, they can recognize, and dad had these conversations, and mum also had these conversations, that, you know, you long for what you think is the norm.

and what you think is what you would wish for. And for me, in that case, was if I were on a family holiday, or if we were in Disney World or something and I saw a family of four, I used to get upset and think I wish that was us. I miss my dad, you know, I wish he was here. And sometimes it's not about telling your kid, you know, oh, but we shouldn't be together because we're so horrible and it's horrible, like don't even think like that. Sometimes it's just about listening to them. And then down the track, reminding them that, hey, I get it.

but this is your life and you should be proud of it and you know this is our family and you know not taking away the fact that your parents will always be your parents and in my eyes we will always be a family because that's just how it is it just might not be the conventional you know the way that I grew up being told a family is X like you know families look so different nowadays and you know my parents

really didn't try, well I was grateful when they did try to shut me down that I wanted or missed something that I didn't have, but rather turned it into a positive as opposed to reminding me about the negatives as to why that doesn't exist. So reminding me that this is your life and you should be proud of it and this is how you can be and this is how I can help you make it feel better and keeping that line of communication open.

It's just so important and not shutting down, you know, and reminding them about all the horrible things about their current relationship.

Robert (29:24)
Right.

Bella, I'm gonna ask this from you, but I think about there's days when sometimes I just miss my kids extra. Like I don't, you know, who knows why maybe the moon's in a different position. I don't know. You know, it's just might wake up one Tuesday and it's like, gosh, I just really miss those boys a little extra. As a kid, are there days like that where maybe you miss your, maybe you missed your dad a little extra that day or your mom for no reason. And then.

How did you get through it? What do you do? What do you, what advice do you give?

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (29:55)
gosh yes like I recall waking up in the middle of the night often and being like is dad okay like what's he doing like is he gonna be okay

I'm about to miss him so much and then I get upset and then my mom would comfort me and it would be, you know, it's hard. It's hard to think about those times and I'm sure it's hard for dad to like hear that and vice versa. I'd miss mom so much. And I remember having this one moment where I forgot what my mom looked like. I was like, what? Like I'd seen her the day before and I just freaked out that, oh, I can't.

I can't remember, I just miss her or I miss dad and that is, you're a kid and you just miss them so much but I think reminding yourself or communicating to your parent that you miss the other parent and getting a response that I understand, of course you miss them, that's your other parent, how about we give them a call?

And that can make a big difference in comparison to a response of, why would you miss them? Like you saw them yesterday, or why would you miss them? Well, why are you talking about missing them? I only get you for a couple of days. Why, you know, uh, I've, you'll see them three days from now and three days can be a lifetime away for a little kid. Um, so a response of,

Robert (31:10)
You'll see them three days from now, something like that.

Yeah.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (31:19)
I get that, of course you do, even if you saw them the hour before, how about we give them a call and make sure they're doing okay and see what they're up to? Would that make you feel better? And sometimes it would, or sometimes mum, it'd be in the middle of the night, mum would be like, as soon as we wake up, we'll give dad a call, or it might have been the next day that we're transitioning, and so it just depends on the context. But...

It's really, really important that parents meet that, you know, expression or if a kid is brave enough to say, I miss my other parent, even though they know their other parent might not, you know, want to hear that, that response is a positive one and tries to be one that's best for the kid. And often that can be communicating with the other parent to just check in.

Robert (32:05)
Yeah, and where you felt safe to tell that parent. I mean, you felt safe to tell that the parents you're with that, hey, I miss mom a little extra, or I miss dad a little extra, can I call them? I'm worried about them, or I just want to hear them. And I think that feeling safe and that parent allowing that as well. I think too many times we hear where parents are denying access or like we said, oh, you'll see them in three days from now, or why do you need to do that? They're fine, don't worry about it.

And I hear that a lot from different ones and, you know, it breaks my heart. I mean, put yourself in your kid's shoes, you know, and, and don't think about yourself and think about, think about them. I mean, that's their, you know, their little heart that's breaking or that misses the other parent.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (32:49)
That's it. And sometimes your kid won't come and communicate the answer. And I think that that's where you're going to do the adulting. You know, your kid might come to you and say, I miss dad or I miss mom.

And it's not up to the kids to say, so can I call them. It's up to you to come up with the solution because that kid might be six years old or seven years old and they don't know how to not miss or they don't know how to fix that. So it's really important that you're that adult in that situation and you come up with the mature decision irrespective of your conflict with your co-parent and do what's best for your kid.

Robert (33:06)
Yes.

That's it right there. Craig, anything you want to add with that?

Craig Duncan (33:27)
Yeah, that was exactly right. I think, yeah, there was times, Robert, you just wake up and go, holy hell. You know, like this is, you know, it's hard to get up today because I just miss these guys so, so very, very much. Um, but I think it always gets back to having, like, I'm really big on having, trying to have routines and, you know, having that morning routine and journaling. And I say this, actually, I was saying this to a dad the other day that

hasn't been able to see his kids for a long period of time. And I said, well, just journal, write them a letter, write in that journal what you're thinking. One day they'll be adults and they'll know and they'll see all this time. But yeah, there was some periods of time that was really, really difficult. I think one of the points is, and this is really hard, you mightn't love your ex-partner. Most of the times you don't, of course you probably don't.

But your kids will. Do you know what I mean? Your kids, when you accept the fact that the kids love their parents very much, equally, and it's not that competition, that they, when you accept that they love and adore their mother and they, you know, they worship their mother as much as you hope they love you, then life becomes a lot easier. Because then you think, okay, well this kid is.

Robert (34:25)
Right.

Craig Duncan (34:49)
they're missing their mom. Just, yeah, every day, let's just say, just ring your mom when you want to. I think it's also easy, and I would have done this because we can be very solution focused where sometimes true empathy is not always putting a silver lining around a dark cloud. It's actually, sometimes they just need to be heard and just to be there and...

and hear them out. And I think that's important if you can create that environment where they can just speak without judgment and you're not straight away going, yeah, but, as soon as you go, yeah, but, you'll see them in a couple of days. Yeah, but, no, sometimes, yeah, I get that, that sucks. And, you know, what do you think? And if they can be heard, it's really important from a really young age, three, four, five, you know, let's really.

have that relationship with our kids where we accept that they love both parents. That's important.

Robert (35:47)
Yeah, you know, I was talking to somebody the other day and he's actually, he's going to be on the show.

he was talking about parent alienation. And he said, you know, one of the things that he teaches is if you, let's say there's two kids. So you have the parent, there's one circle. Another kid, there's another circle. Second kid, there's another circle. And it's really, okay, you've got to look at yourself, but you also have to look.

at each child individually, how they are, and try to put yourself in their circle or their bubble and try to come from it from their point and what they're going through. And Bella, you said it too, it's adulting, it's being an adult and having empathy as well. And I think for the parents, for us, it's...

I think a big part of it is letting them feel safe where they can have that feeling where the kids have the feeling of being able to express, you know, Craig, whether it's to you, Bella, be able to come to you and say, dad, I really miss mom. Can I, you know, go shopping with her for an hour this afternoon or whatever it may be, you know, something like that and, uh, or just call her, you know, it's, uh, um, I don't, I don't mind it. I mean, you know, you talk about it hurting, you know, maybe it hurts the other parent Bella.

I think in some ways it's, you've got to realize like, Hey, I mean, yeah, they've got another parent and putting them, putting yourself in their shoes, like, yeah, you know, of course they're going to miss their parents.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (37:19)
Yeah. And I think.

Robert (37:21)
I... Go ahead, Bella.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (37:23)
Sorry, just on that point, I think it's, I can't speak from the adult perspective. I can't speak from a co-parenting perspective. But from a kid's perspective, I think it would be very beneficial for moms and dads to see their ex as one person, but their co-parent as another. And their co-parent is who their kids adore and love, like dad said.

Robert (37:40)
K, uh...

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (37:49)
and that's the relationship that they have to foster for their kids. Not their relationship with their ex, no one's asking you to be best friends with your ex-wife or your ex-husband. It's not about that. It's about being a co-parent for your kids and having respect for that co-parent because like I say, having respect for your co-parent is having respect for your kid and it's not about your conflict. It's not about the relationship that you have.

It's about your kids and it's about the relationship that you have going forward for your kids. Nothing to do with you, but just for your kids. If that's any motivation.

Robert (38:22)
No, that's, that is absolutely wonderful. Okay. So to kind of wrap it up, I want to ask you guys individually, what was the most, what was most important to each of you about your relationship? What did you want to get out of it?

Who wants to go first? She's putting it on you, dad.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (38:39)
Dad

Craig Duncan (38:41)
Ha!

Robert (38:42)
What was most important?

Craig Duncan (38:42)
I like, you know, I mean, since the moment this Bella, my Bella was born, she's just brought me joy. And from that, that moment of joy that you have when they're born, you, you just want to foster that and, and be the best parent you can be so that they can then go and make the world a better place. You know, that that's, that's our job as a parent,

It wasn't as much. I always wanted to be there. I always took the notion like Bella's just got married. And so now I'm very, I'm sort of strong with her about her husband comes first. I will work around you, you're busy. I will make the time to be there for you. I'll come to you rather than you thinking you have to manage this. So that's because my daughter has a huge heart.

And so she wants to look after everyone. Yeah. So, so where I'm, I'm a bit like, even to, you know, to this day, dad's okay. I will come to you. It's about you being okay. And now you have a life where you are developing your family. So I think I wanted to have a, a lifelong relationship with my daughter, um, and then grow with her over, over times. And. You know, like you.

Robert (39:38)
You can tell, yes.

Craig Duncan (40:04)
there's a lot of dads out there you go you have this princess of a daughter and then you know you've you know about fourth grade or you know you're walking them to school and you're holding their hand and they don't want to hold your hand anymore as they get closer to school and so that's a transition you know and then you know they grow their independence and there's transition phases and I remember people were so concerned for me

Robert (40:18)
Hahaha

Craig Duncan (40:28)
For Bella maybe thinking, wow, she ever gets a boyfriend, how am I ever going to cope? And that's a transition phase. A very lucky, you know, my son-in-law is fantastic, but I wanted just to have that lifelong relationship. One of the best pieces of advice I got very early on, Robert, was someone said to me, kids are only kids for a very short time.

And that those words were so important because if we stuff it up by fighting over this and fighting over that before you know it, these kids are 15, 16, 17, 18, and they're adults for a longer period of time. So sometimes you've got to take the higher ground in all difficult situations because yeah my focus was always to have a lifelong relationship with Bella.

And that's what I have. Like, you know, she's not living at home now. You know, she's married, but after this, she'll come and have brunch with us. And so it's just having that lifelong relationship. That wouldn't have happened if I hadn't, or we hadn't, and all worked on it, on keeping that during those formative years. So I think that was always my goal.

to have it. Like I said, having that now, as far as my kids go, as an adult looking back and where I am now, not as an adult, as a fathering adult, it's a nice place to be.

Robert (41:51)
Such wise words. Bella, top that.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (41:56)
Yeah, well you know what the reality is that dad did the adulting in that area and he had those conversations when we were young.

And I said this in the last episode, I think, you know, I recall we were having coffee one day, I think I was maybe like 10 and dad said, you know, Belle, we will always do this, but it might just look a bit different one day. But this is what I envision for our relationship. And that to me was...

My dad's always gonna be my life. My dad wants to be my life. And he's willing to go through the different transformative phases with me to make sure that this still looks the same, even though the world might change around us. And that for me was just so indicative of the relationship I wanted with my dad. The main point being that he was in my life.

that we had that good relationship, but it wasn't built on just the fact that he's my dad, just the fact that I loved and adored him as a kid, but now we've just grown up and he's my dad and that's it. No, I've got a relationship with my dad where I know my dad, I know all his greatness and all his faults, and I still choose to have that relationship with him because we've both worked at it.

of me not to say that it's also a bit of a co parenting journey to help your kid want that. You know, my mum and dad never, you know, always got along.

But at the end of the day, you know, your parents, both my parents were adamant that I needed a relationship with both of them for me to be the best person that I could be. And maybe sometimes that didn't look very linear, and some of the things didn't make sense, but you know, at the end of the day, I had that in my head that I needed a relationship with both my parents and especially my dad. And I speak of this, you know, quite, quite um...

frequently that it's so important for daughters to have that relationship with their dad and sons in a different way but To work at it and it's not easy and it's not just a one-time conversation It's an effort based Conversation and it's an effort throughout your entire life And I know the trajectory of dad and I's relationship now looking back and moving forward because of the hard work that you know We've all put in

So yeah, I'm very lucky and I'm very grateful, but I wouldn't have had any other way.

Robert (44:34)
Wow, I love seeing the two of you though, just the love expressed between the two of you. And Bella, I see why you're so wise for your age. There's, well, I want to ask you this though. I'm wondering, there's a brother, right? Is he as wise or is he, do we keep him hidden or no, I'm kidding. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (44:48)
Yeah.

Craig Duncan (44:49)
Yes.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (44:55)
Now, he is the smartest of us all.

Craig Duncan (44:56)
He's... Yeah, he's... He's... He's next door. He's just in the room. He's just in the room next door, but... He's actually very wise I mean, he's... Yeah.

Robert (45:06)
He's wise, he's like, I don't want to be on there.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (45:09)
He's beyond... Yeah. He, but he's not like, he won't listen. He won't listen to this. So I'm allowed to say that he's a smartest one, but he, yeah, no, it's incredible. I think that's a whole nother topic, going through something with a brother and, or, you know, or a sister or whatever it might be, but.

Robert (45:11)
That is wonderful. Hey, so.

Yeah.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (45:29)
my, on that tangent of getting married, my brother was actually my man of honour. So, you know, if that's not indicative of he's the closest person to me, I, you know, change the status quo just so my brother could stand next to me on my wedding day because that's the reality he's stood by me my entire life. We've been the constant for each other. So, you know, I think siblings and divorce are a whole different topic which I'm willing to talk about another day, but yeah, you know.

Robert (45:35)
Really?

Wow.

And that's, that's beautiful. And it really is. It's beautiful to see. Craig, I'm so happy I got to meet you because, you know, when Bella was on last time, just the beautiful words, she spoke about you and just the real heartfelt words. And Bella and I were talking offline and she's like, well, you know, dad might be interested in coming on. And it was like, yeah, one, I would just love to meet him. I would love to meet this person that raised Bella who she talks so highly about, you know, and.

I just, I appreciate you guys being on it. It's wonderful just to see the love that you guys share. Is there anything you guys would like to say to one another even right now?

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (46:36)
I think Dad and I keep the communication line pretty open. Yeah, so we're... Yeah. We're so...

Craig Duncan (46:36)
Oh, yeah, I think we say it. We say it, but I mean, you know, Belle knows and yeah, I think the world of her. And yeah, she's like, sometimes I don't know, like people congratulate me on Bella, but Bella's herself. Like Bella is a gift to the world. And-

Robert (46:39)
Yeah.

Craig Duncan (47:01)
It sounds funny saying that because I'm her dad, but I can take that step away and just go, Oh my goodness, this kid, or she's not a kid now. She's a woman, but, um, uh, you know, it's, uh, it's, from every moment of her life has just brought joy to the world and joy to the people she's around. Like it's actually, um, sometimes, sometimes we're blessed to know those people. And I'm just lucky enough.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (47:12)
We'll see you next time.

Craig Duncan (47:27)
You know, but it's my girl.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (47:28)
I love you dad.

Robert (47:28)
I think you guys, I think both of you are gifts. I really do. I think both of you.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (47:33)
and we're very lucky and I'm so grateful to have a platform where we can share you know everything we've been through and the love that we share and the importance of it for other dads and other kids going through it you know I checked off this platform with everybody involved especially dad and dad literally said to me well Belle this is your life you know why not try to help other people go through it yeah.

Craig Duncan (47:38)
No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Robert (47:57)
And, and that's it. And you know what, Bella, when you were on last time, you, I think you were such an inspiration to so many, you know, dads and parents of, um, yeah, you're not with them, but they can still love you so much. Just as this, you know, just as you do your dad, it doesn't mean they're not going to love you. It doesn't mean that you're not going to be special in their eyes. And, um,

You know, I think you were just so inspiring to so many fathers and parents, uh, you know, moms or dads. Uh, so it was just, it's so beautiful to see. And that's why one of the reasons why I really wanted to, to have you back on here, it definitely is. Hey, so anything that you guys want to promote, Bella, I know you want to promote your blog website page and Craig feel free as well.

Bella - A Kid With Two homes (48:43)
Yeah.

Yeah, so I've got obviously A kid with Two Homes, we're on Instagram, we've got a blog that's on the website www.akidwithtwohomes.com and we just flesh out a lot.

you know, the specific topics that are so niche to divorce families and it's all from the kids perspective, which I think is a very clear and dominant perspective that is missing in the divorce world. So my attempt is to fill that gap and if you have any questions about the kids perspective, I'm here to listen and I'm very, very willing to have those open conversations. So that's where you can find all my stuff at A Kid with Two Homes.

Robert (49:27)
That's great. And Craig, anything, Instagram, anything? I know you work with divorced dads some, you talk to them, correct?

Craig Duncan (49:37)
Yeah, look, I mean, I, you know, I, I work with a whole range of different people on their performance and, you know, just general and in life performance, but you know, my Instagram is just at Dr. Craig Duncan. And then my website is, is just drcraigduncan.com. Because I think, yeah, one of the things here, we can, we can sit here now, but I know there's a lot of pain out there and I would never want to sit here and say it's easy.

There's a lot of pieces in this puzzle. There's a lot of people that had positive influence. So as grandparents, Bella's mom did so and continues to do so wonderfully well. I think it's really important if you repartner who the role they play, that's a difficult but such an important role that they accept.

that the kids are so important to you. I think that's, you know, I'd been very fortunate in that regard. So I think there's a whole lot of things. I don't wanna sit here and go, this is easy. This relationship, Bella and I have, it just takes work. It really takes work. And some of the dads might be out there and they don't have the opportunity to see their kids. And my heart, you know, I feel for you, but.

All we can do is stay as strong as we can to work on ourselves, to look after ourselves, look after our own well-being, because the kids will only be kids for a short time. And I know it seems like an eternity right now. But those words always rung in my ears. And I remember when I heard them, I thought, shut the hell up, because this is, you know, it's so far away.

But it goes quick, it goes quick. So your decisions that you do now and the work that you do now, um, and the relationship you try and develop now, your, your kids know you're there. Just let them, let them somehow, somehow know that you love them, that you're there for them and you're not going anywhere because I know that I know it can be so painful.

Robert (51:39)
That is great. And you know, you're, you are correct. It takes, it's, it's not easy. It takes a lot of work. Definitely.

Guys, you two seriously are beautiful relationship, beautiful people. And I can not thank you enough. I really, Craig, so great to meet you, Bella. Great to see you again. And, um, uh, thank you for being on. I certainly do. So I appreciate it. and thank you all for listening to dad to dads podcast. You can find us on Spotify or Apple podcast.

as well as on YouTube and Instagram. And don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button so you don't miss any episodes and we'll see you all next time.