The Impact of a Father's Presence on a Child's Well-Being, from a Biblical Perspective - Interview with Zach Clinton

Interview with Zach Clinton, motivational speaker, author, Vice President of Association of Christian Counselors and President of Ignite Men's Impact Weekend. In this episode Robert and Zach discuss fatherhood from a Biblical perspective. They emphasize the importance of a father's presence in a child's life and the positive impact it has on their mental health, academic performance, and identity development. They also discuss the role of vulnerability and emotional openness in fatherhood, highlighting the need for fathers to model these behaviors for their children. Zach emphasizes the significance of investing in children and providing them with the necessary ingredients for resilience. He encourages fathers to prioritize their families and be consistent in their presence and support. The conversation focuses on the power of words and the importance of creating a positive environment within the home. It emphasizes the role of fathers in shaping their children's lives through their words and actions. The conversation also touches on the topics of discipline, boundaries, and the challenges faced by dads today, including pressure, past mistakes, and the impact of technology. It concludes with a discussion on forgiveness and the importance of choosing to forgive, both others and oneself.

Takeaways

• A father's presence in a child's life has a significant impact on their mental health, academic performance, and identity development.
• Fathers should model vulnerability and emotional openness for their children, creating a safe space for them to express and explore their emotions.
• Investing in children and providing them with the necessary ingredients for resilience is crucial for their growth and development.
• Prioritizing family and being consistent in presence and support are essential responsibilities of fathers. Words have the power to create a world of hurt or a world of hope and healing.
• Fathers need to reflect on the world they are creating within their homes and strive to create a positive and uplifting environment.
• Discipline is not about going easy on kids, but about pushing them to reach their full potential with love and accountability.
• Dads should strive to be both a friend and a parent to their children, setting boundaries while also fostering a strong relationship.
• The prevalence of technology, especially smartphones and pornography, poses challenges for dads in maintaining healthy relationships and setting a good example.
• Forgiveness is a commandment and a choice that brings freedom and healing, both for oneself and for others.
• Forgiveness does not mean excusing or forgetting the wrongs done, but it allows for personal growth and the possibility of reconciliation.
• Living an 'even if' mindset, choosing faith and endurance in the face of challenges, can lead to a transformed life.

Transcript

Robert (00:00)
Hey everyone and welcome back to the dad to dad's podcast. So this podcast is about fatherhood, all things fatherhood. And, some of the subjects we've discussed have touched on divorced, parent alienation, borderline personality disorder, narcissism, And I just, I wanted to, I wanted to bring someone in who could talk a little bit deeper about fatherhood hear from someone,

Someone who could speak on fatherhood from a biblical perspective. So today I wanted to welcome Zack Clinton to the podcast Zack.

Zach Clinton (00:33)
Robert, my friend, thank you so much for the opportunity. I'm looking forward to the conversation today.

Robert (00:38)
Hey, well look, thank you for coming on and do you mind providing a little feedback about yourself?

Zach Clinton (00:43)
Absolutely, sir. So, Zachlin, I'm from Lynchburg, Virginia, born and raised. I went to a Christian high school called Liberty Christian Academy. Had two parents that really grew up as kind of bigger names in the ministry space. My dad, Dr. Tim Clinton, has been the president of the American Association of Christian Counselors for over 35 years. My mom, Julie Clinton, is the president and founder of Extraordinary Women's Ministry, where they host about 10 to 12 pretty much e -woman events across the country.

every single year, so they both have been heavily immersed in ministry my entire life. So I got to grow up kind of in that shadow alongside of my sister Megan. And really what we became passionate about was just learning how we could serve the Lord in whatever capacity possible. I had the opportunity of following in my dad's footsteps. serve as the vice president here of the American Association of Christian Counselors. I serve as a licensed resident counselor in the state of Virginia. I see about a caseload of 20 clients per week.

see a lot of dads, see a lot of men, see a lot of kids in youth and marriages are some of my favorites. And then on top of that, I'm finishing out my PhD in counselor education and supervision through Liberty University. Do a lot in sports, work a lot with athletes. So this should be a great conversation, sir.

Robert (01:52)
And did you mention that you were a D1 athlete?

Zach Clinton (01:55)
I did play college baseball at Liberty for four years and on top of that, I gotta bring out this most important part. I've been married for three years to my beautiful wife, Evelyn. It's coming up on three, should say, September the 5th. Yes, sir. Thank you.

Robert (02:01)
There you

There you go. Well, happy early anniversary. So let me ask you this. Was there a calling for you? love hearing, you know, if there was, was there a calling anyway for you to get into that? Or was it just, Hey, you know, you're our child and this is the route you're going to

Zach Clinton (02:20)
know, growing up, I never felt the pressure to follow in anyone's footsteps. I never felt like I was in anybody's shadows. My mom and dad were very kind and generous and always reminded me of my identity in Christ and never said I had to be anybody but myself. So I didn't have to be a version of Tim Clinton. I could just be the best version of Zach Clinton. And so for me, I felt called into athletics. I pursued football, basketball, and baseball throughout my high school career. Went on to play baseball, like I said, for four years at Liberty.

had the possibility of going on and playing, had some conversation with the Tampa Bay Rays, a scout, a very dear and near friend of mine now named Mike Brown. And so had all of these conversations going on, but just felt called into ministry. I just love the Lord, grew up in a home that really raised me in that way. And then ultimately I wanted to help people unlock their fullest potential, not just in athletics, but in life. And so that's what led me down to mental health and the sport counseling and psychology space.

That's kind of when things shifted for me, I'd say right after my undergraduate.

Robert (03:21)
that's great. That's great. Well, hey, let's jump into it. So, you know, I know we talked offline a couple of days ago, but fatherhood from a biblical perspective, like how does the Bible view fatherhood? What does it say about fatherhood? What does it say about the roles, responsibilities? I want to hear it from

Zach Clinton (03:41)
Man, there's so much that we could unpack today and I'm sure we're gonna dive really deep, but I would just say upfront, what I want every dad to hear is the significance of their presence in their children's life. So when you look at not just biblical perspective, but a statistical, right now men, let's just be real Robert, in culture and society, there's a real beat down on men, right? Where men are kind of labeled

buffoons or porn addicts, bad dads, terrible husbands, abusers, they're angry, all of these different things. And this label has kind of referenced toward men is called toxic masculinity. And I want men to recognize this, that yeah, there's such a thing as toxic behavior. I know a lot of men that have made some bad decisions, that have made some mistakes in their life, but that does not, in a sense, rid them of the opportunity or disqualify them from leading within their homes when they.

come to a place of humility and recognition of their faults, they accept those things and recognize that there may be a thing of toxic behavior, but there's nothing toxic about being a man. Not just biblical and scriptural here, but scientific, statistical, when a father is present and engaged in the lives of his children children. Catch this, their mental health challenges actually are decreased, their academic performance, their sports performance.

their identity growth and development, all of those things happen at a much more rapid and fluid rate. It's amazing what happens when a dad is present in the lives of his children. On top of that, I came across a statistic not long ago that when a child is the first to come to know the Lord within their home home, catches there's a 3 .5 % chance that the rest of the family will come to know the Lord. When a mother is the first first to come to know the Lord within their home, there's a 17 % chance that the rest of the family will come to know the Lord.

but when a father is the first first first first to come to know the Lord within their home, there is a 93 % chance that the rest of the family will come to know the Lord Lord as well. That just shows us right there that as a dad, you cannot not have influence. You are always being watched, you're always being looked up to, and I don't say that to put more pressure on dads. I say that because I just want dads to recognize just how much they really, really matter.

Robert (05:55)
Wow, that influence

Zach Clinton (05:56)
A lot of influence, Robert. It's very impactful when you start to recognize that impact of a dad. And so a lot of what I try to teach dads and what I think scripture wants dads to recognize around their influence, around their impact, and around their presence goes into a lot of what we do in counseling. When I work with dads, when I work with parents on a daily and weekly basis, Dr. Dan Siegel has a lot of work around attachment and how we can build healthy and secure attachment with our kids.

And what he says is four S's that he really speaks on. The first one, he talks about creating safety for our kids. So being that safe place for them, being someone that they can come to, that they can attach to, that they can share and confide in, that isn't going to, in a sense, push them away, hold them at arms distance, not be emotionally available or attuned with them. Being someone that's safe, that they can actually come to. Then when they come to you and they feel safe with you in your presence, guess what? Then they can go out

and face all of the other challenges that life may have to offer. So the first thing we can provide for our kids as dads is safety. The second thing is we have to be able to see them emotionally, right? We see our kids physically. It's really easy to see, you know, negative behavior. It's really easy to see when they're being disobedient. It's really easy to see when they're throwing fits. That's easy stuff. But I'm talking about what's going on beneath the behavior. What's going on up here? What's going on in their emotional life? And actually being then aware

and becoming aligned to our children, right? So being attuned, but also being aware and being aligned. So not just creating safety, but then seeing them emotionally. The third one he talks about is soothing our kids. And what soothing means, a lot of dads might be like, well, shoot, I don't wanna soothe my kid. That means I'm promising them a life of ease. That's the furthest thing from the truth. What we mean by soothing your children is helping them recognize that pain, challenge, hardship, adversity in life, it's inevitable.

Robert (07:29)
Mm -hmm.

Zach Clinton (07:52)
It's gonna come to all of us. Nobody can promise our kids a life of ease and comfort and convenience, but what we can do is we can walk alongside of them closely, and when they go through those hardships that they experience in life, we can help them, in a sense, develop necessary coping skills to maneuver and navigate their way through their painful seasons of life. And I love a quote that Dr. Dan Siegel shares in his book, The Power of Showing Up. He says this, he says, a soothed child

knows that he or she will never have to suffer alone. We have to remind our kids that they're not alone in the midst of the challenges and the fight that they may come up against in this life. And then he says this, when you show up consistently by providing safety, by seeing your kids emotionally, and by soothing them in times of need, then, just then, you'll be able to provide them the opportunity to rely on a safe or secure attachment once again.

and secure attachment for those who maybe aren't familiar with that type of language in the mental health space. When you have a secure attachment, that's when a parental attachment figure has shown up consistently and provide that emotional availability through the hardships that you experience in life, which has allowed you the opportunity of forming an internal working model, is what we would say, where you have a healthy view of self, which is like, am deserving of love, but at the same time, a healthy view of others that I can trust somebody else

to provide me with the love that I desire and deserve. So it's all found again in the power of showing

Robert (09:24)
That's beautiful. That is beautiful. All right. So did you say number four? And what was after soothing? Is secure.

Zach Clinton (09:33)
So the last one after soothing is secure, secure attachment.

Robert (09:36)
Wow. That is great advice right there. So let me ask you this. Let's go back to emotional. You know, I think about with the emotional, it's understanding them emotionally, but also not hiding your emotions from them. Showing it, I think showing it's okay. Would you agree?

Zach Clinton (09:50)
Yes. Yes. Most definitely. think that's probably one of the hardest things that men struggle with the most in life is being able to, what I would say is model vulnerability. Right? So when you model vulnerability to your children, that's exactly what you're saying, Robert. You're able to provide them then with an opportunity.

or an understanding of what it looks like to be vulnerable in the first place, what it looks like to open up about my emotions, what it looks like to accept them, to own them, to discuss them and express them and explore them, all of these things, right? So I typically base it off of those three E's, being able to explore your emotions, being able to experience your emotions, then being able to express your emotions. I believe this, you cannot heal from something that you were unwilling to feel or reveal. And so you have to be able to feel it

You also have to be able to reveal it. Why do men, though, let's get, let's dive into this. Why do men struggle with vulnerability? I think there's just this surmounting pressure on men where you have to have this pressure to perform, pressure to provide, pressure to protect, and then all of a sudden, men feel like they are on an island, right? Like they are completely isolated. They don't have anybody to talk to. And when we don't have anybody to talk to, you can see where there is this gap.

that what we would call the integrity gap. I have friends, Jeff and Tara Mattson, who have a book called Shrinking the Integrity Gap in Our Lives. And so what it's all about is when you don't have somebody to go to and to be vulnerable to as that safe space or safe place where you can trust them and you have conversations that are built around confidentiality, hey, can I be open with you, Robert? Can I tell you about some of the most difficult things I'm going through in my life? And then what happens is that culture and society though is whispering in one ear, hey, if you're broken,

If you're going through something, that's embarrassing. That's humiliating, right? Because we live in this comparison culture built on perceived perfection. And so when you have all of this going on at the same time, it's hard for men then to actually feel safe enough to open up. And that's why we also have to provide men with our presence and say, hey, by the way, it's okay. You can be you. This is going to stay here. Sometimes you don't even have to offer your perspective. You just need to provide your presence.

Robert (11:46)
It's true.

Zach Clinton (12:07)
and then just be there and sit with them through some of the most difficult times of their life to remind them that they're not alone as well

Robert (12:14)
And we as men have gotten away from doing things together. I mean, I remember getting together to watch football games, things like that. I COVID, I think, really hurt us a lot as well. It hurt a lot of people. But I've seen that, and others that have been on here have talked about that as well, where you just don't see men getting together much anymore to watch a game or to play cards or whatever. They just kind of sit at home and do it amongst themselves.

Zach Clinton (12:17)
yeah.

Robert (12:42)
watch the game themselves, maybe text back and forth that. think technology's really been a challenge there. It's harmed

Zach Clinton (12:49)
It has, and I interviewed a guy several months back. His name was Justin Whitmell Early, and he had a book out called Made for People. And in this book, he talks about, and we know this in scripture, in Genesis 2 is the very first thing that God said was not good. When you look at all the days in creation from the beginning, it says God would create something, and he would say, it was good, and it was good. When he created man in the likeness of his image, he said, it was very good.

But then all of a sudden in Genesis 2, 18, he like stops us and he says, you know, for the very first time, the very first thing he said was not good was for man to be alone, right? So we recognize right here that loneliness and isolation is not just the enemy to our faith, but it's the enemy to anything good in this life. It's the enemy to progress. It's the enemy to, in a sense, growth. It's the enemy to development. And so when we live in this current of loneliness, we have to recognize the need.

our desperate need for relationship and ultimately our desperate need for a savior. And so that's what we have to recognize too when it comes to faith is that this Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship. And so when we recognize that we're pressing into something bigger and greater than ourselves, and when we recognize that what you're talking about Robert, when it comes to the phones, that phones are maybe a means by which we can enhance friendship and community, but not a means by which we can do.

friendship and community. need embodied friendship in order to actually develop us with the relational nutrients to grow and to lead and to love and to live a life that is ultimately what Christ has desired for us in the abundant

Robert (14:29)
Yeah, I totally agree. totally agree. these men groups, men's groups are so important and I highly recommend those to anybody listening, whether it's through church, community, whatever it can be. I I highly recommend those. I mean, we do. There's nothing like getting together with other guys, other dads, whoever that know what you're going through because they're going through it just the same.

I mean, we're all in this together and you you said like you're on an island. You do, you feel like you're on an island and you don't want to, you don't want to share it. And you know, it's almost like when you walk in the door, you almost it's like you're hanging up your feelings on a coat rack and then you walk in there happy and you you stuff everything in and that's, that's not healthy, but you've got it. You have to have that release.

Zach Clinton (14:58)
just the same.

You have to, and I think that goes back to John 10, 10, right? That the enemy or the thief has come to steal, to kill, and to destroy. But I have come, Jesus said, to give you life and give it more abundantly. But when you think about the beginning part of that verse, that the thief has come to steal, to kill, and to destroy, I think of so many of us when we're going through challenges and adversity in our life, why do we not feel safe or why do we not want to, in a sense, confide in somebody else? Because we're so afraid.

of the voice of shame. And that's where the enemy uses shame all of the time. Shame, the best definition I've ever heard, there's a difference between guilt and shame. Guilt places the emphasis on the behavior. Shame places the emphasis on the self. So for in other words, you feel guilty when you feel like you have failed in this particular action. Shame would say that you are the failure. But what I have always heard and what I believe is what shame really says is if you really knew me, Robert,

If you really knew some of the decisions that I was making or some of the words that I was saying behind closed doors, if you really knew the real me, then you wouldn't like me, you wouldn't appreciate me, you wouldn't spend time with me, you wouldn't ask me to be on your podcast. That's the voice of shame in our lives. And a lot of us allow the grip of shame to rob us again of the abundant life for which God created us for. Things such as friendship, things such as community, that's why I believe the church is so imperative.

It's not the means by which we get to heaven. We understand that Christ and Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one gets to the Father except through Him. Yes, that's what I fully believe. But the church can be a means by which we enhance our faith and enhance those relationships through teaching and through preaching and through spending time with one another in fellowship. Those things matter because that's what God created us for.

Robert (17:10)
Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. Totally agree. So let me ask you this. Biblically, the roles of a father.

Zach Clinton (17:18)
Yes.

Biblically, the roles of the father. I would say, think David's words to his son, Solomon, right before Solomon was about to take the throne. And we all know these words. says, be strong and show yourself a man. But then he goes on to say, and follow the commands, follow the statutes, follow the laws and the decrees for which God has given you to follow. So in other words, be obedient. And so as we talk

Fatherhood. big thing is priorities are huge when it comes to Fatherhood. That's what I believe scripture is very imperative on. A lot of people, believe scripture even mentions and references that we are to in a sense not neglect our Jerusalem to go on and pursue the Judeas and the Samaritans in the uttermost parts of the earth. So never prioritize what you

over, in a sense, who you are and the people that you have the opportunity of impacting, influencing, and spending time with on a daily basis. Your marriage, your family, your kids matter more than you know. And so investing in those things every day is so significant. Make sure you get your priorities in order. But also, would be remiss not to just mention, make sure that you're paying attention to what you're paying attention to and to what you are giving, in a sense, life and your own personal life.

So when you are spending time with your kids, make sure, when it comes to the presence aspect, special time, quality time with them, but also, how are you leading them? My dad always talks about the power of influence in fatherhood, and he always reminds me of it. He always says, if you spit, they'll spit. If you cuss, they'll cuss. If you get angry and have outbursts, typically they'll get angry and have outbursts, but also on the flip side of things, if you love, they'll love.

Robert (18:50)
So true.

Zach Clinton (19:05)
If you're kind, they'll be kind. If you forgive, they'll forgive. There's a quote that my pastor always says that typically what parents do in moderation, their kids will do in excess because it's what's modeled for them, right? It's what's familiar. And so what do you want your child to catch in a sense when they're around you? You're contagious for all the wrong reasons and for all the right reasons. And for me, I think of what that has looked like in my personal life. I think of my dad.

Robert (19:16)
Wow.

Zach Clinton (19:32)
and just being able to recognize, man, my dad is contagious for all the right reasons. And my dad is still someone I look up to. My dad is still my hero, and I always joke around, at the age of 28, Pops, I still wanna be just like you. That's who my dad is to me, and I'm so grateful for

Robert (19:47)
That is so powerful right there. And that is so true. How we live our lives is how they're going to live theirs. I mean, they do, they, they model us. I mean, I see that. I see that with my two boys and at times it's, it's almost like, no, but it's a check. Like, all right, you need to improve on this and, tell you a funny story. So my oldest who's, who is,

about to have his license. he says learners permit for the last year. And I'm a little impatient with driving. I might say things at time like, come on, like, what are you doing up there? All right. I drive normally. I might lean a little bit too excessive speed at times. but again, I live in Atlanta and you kind of have to, you're going to get run over,

Zach Clinton (20:41)
That

Robert (20:42)
He is by the law, if not below it. If he gets a ticket, if he gets pulled over, it's because he's 10 miles per hour under the speed limit, but we'll be stuck in traffic and I will hear him say, if somebody's a little bit slow with the stoplight, come on, what are you doing up there? I'm like, Oh no. Thinking like one, you're not in a rush because I know the way you drive.

Zach Clinton (21:10)
Alright.

Robert (21:11)
But second, you know, it's where did he hear it from? he heard it from me, you know, and it's like, all right, so we have to behave. We have to watch how we act when we're driving because he's they're watching this. And, you know, that's, so true. roles of a father. Can you speak on that? Yeah. Roles and I mean, you did, but, you know, the responsibilities of a father.

Zach Clinton (21:29)
roles of a father. Yeah, you know as

Yeah, you know, when it comes to the responsibilities of a father, I believe it's not only to love God, right, and to know him more intimately and personally, but also to make his name known. And so what I mean by that is constantly being a reflection of Christ in and to our kids on a daily basis. And a lot of what you just mentioned is it comes down to like behavior and what we model, what we display for our kids on a daily basis. But also I think dads and parents at large,

are really good at instructing their kids and they're not so good at investing in their kids. And what I mean by that is we're really good at offering commands and we're really good at trying to teach obedience, but we don't really invest in them the necessary ingredients that can actually get them places in life that maybe they couldn't have gone on their own. And I'll give you good example of all of this. So something

I'm very passionate about in the kind of the sports counseling and sports psychology space is this facet of resilience. And I've done a lot of research on it. I've worked with a lot of professional athletes, a lot of teams. I've done tons of interviews throughout my career. And I always ask these questions of, you know, what makes like a resilient person? And although there's no concrete definition for what resilience really means, there is a common theme or a thread, and that's positive adaptation in the presence of adversity.

And so as I do more and more research, I came across a woman that we've done a lot of work with here collaboratively at the AACC, but her name is Dr. Kathy Cook. And she has a great ministry called Celebrate Kids. She teaches a lot of parents how to raise resilient kids. And she has a book out called Raising Resilient Kids Itself. And in that book, a lot of what I've had the opportunity of doing, the first thing that we've talked about is, number one, she talks about resilience as both internal and external.

And when she talks about the internal aspects, this is just chapter one of that book, she talks about number one, it's a mindset. So for instance, when you start to recognize that it's your perspective that really steers your potential, that your test can become a testimony, your mess can become a message, it ignites patience and purpose and perseverance, all these things. Resilience is a mindset, number one. Number two, it's a recovery process, she says. So what I mean by recovery process is that it's not just going to happen in the snap of a finger. We have to recognize that resilience is not instantaneous.

resilience is going to take time. And for some, you know, some instances where there's more trauma, there's more hurt, there's more wounds and damage and hardship involved, maybe we even steer away from the language of, you know, bouncing back to simply coming back. So it's being able to recognize it's a mindset, it's a recovery process. But then what you said, which is fascinating, is it can become a learned ability. It's just like anything. The more we practice something, the more we do something consistently, it just becomes wired into our DNA, into our characteristics.

it becomes a part of who we are, like second nature. But then after the first chapter, where she talks about the internal, the rest of the book, she looks and literally uses the language to all of you moms and dads and coaches and teachers and counselors, anybody who has influence over the next generation, at the end of the day is what she's saying. She says, the greatest ingredient to raising a resilient child is you.

And she talks about how resilience is external because it's rooted in relationship. And typically when I teach on this principle, I don't have them here on with me because it's a podcast in our studio, but I'll typically have two basketballs. One is fully pumped up with air and the other one is fully deflated. They both are Spalding Neverflat basketballs. They were my favorite brand growing up as a kid, right? You could play with them inside and outside. Both Spalding Neverflats, I bought them on the same day for the exact same price.

Robert (24:51)
Yeah.

Zach Clinton (25:16)
the exact same leather, the exact same color, all of these things created for the exact same purpose, except one of them has no air in them. If you know anything about the game of basketball, how a basketball gets deflated is it was either neglected or something or someone squeezed the air right out of it. It's the exact same thing with kids, Robert. It's the exact same thing. Right, when a kid feels neglected, right, all of a sudden he feels, he starts to become deflated. When a kid,

Robert (25:34)
Yep.

true.

Zach Clinton (25:43)
Someone or something maybe it's an experience. Maybe it's a conversation. Maybe it's an interaction Maybe it's coming home to a family where all there is is fighting or a dad who's you know? Emotionally disengaged I remember thinking of all these different situations that I can think of that I would love to speak on to dads I remember growing up as a kid playing baseball watching this one kid that we were playing against Step up to the play he took strike one down the middle strike two down the middle and then guess what? There was a voice down the third baseline and it yelled swing the stupid bat

And this kid just demoralized and deflated. I'll never forget it. He literally watched strike three right down the middle. He walked back to the dugout. He dropped his bat. He dropped his helmet. He walked out of the dugout and he never played the game of baseball again, right? Because there, we have to recognize, man, I could go on and on and on about this, but you have to invest the right ingredients in our children. So that way, just like that fully inflated basketball, they can step into the purpose and the calling for which they were created for.

Robert (26:27)
Ugh.

Zach Clinton (26:43)
Things such as encouragement, things such as support, things such as presence, things such as simply showing up, things such as consistency. Kids need and they crave discipline and structure, but they crave consistency, Robert. They wanna know that they have the same dad every single day. The kids that I see on a daily basis that in a sense may be crumbling when it comes to their mental health are because there's a lack of consistency within the home. They're terrified to go home. It's not a safe place anymore.

Robert (26:56)
room.

Zach Clinton (27:12)
And they've gotten to a point where they are in a sense completely deflated because of the things that are going through their lives. I think we have a responsibility and a duty as fathers to infuse our kids with the necessary ingredients again. So not only do they have the ability to bounce back, but they have the ability to step into the purpose and calling for which they were created.

Robert (27:33)
Zach, I love that. I absolutely love that. And I'll tell you what, when you were talking about baseball and the kid up there at the plate.

think some baseball dads can be the worst. I I remember when my boys played and just hearing some of those dads, it was just like, my gosh. the ones whether they were standing in the outfield, but usually they were ones that were right behind the plate.

Zach Clinton (27:44)
my goodness.

Mm -hmm.

Robert (28:01)
And just yelling at their kid, my gosh, what are you doing? Are you going to swing the bat? Get it off your shoulder. I'm okay, you're humiliating your kid right there in front of not only every single fan that's in there, parent that's in there, but the other team and especially his own team, you know, and you're humiliating demoralizing them. What a great analogy though. I love

Zach Clinton (28:12)
Mmm. Mmm.

I get

There's that old quote that sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. That's the furthest thing from the truth, right? Because I remember interviewing Mark Batterson. He's the pastor at NCC in Washington, D .C. And as he was mentioning in this one interview and as he mentions in his most recent book, Please Sorry Thanks, The Three Words That Change Everything, he says that words create worlds. And he started talking about how you look at the beginning of time in Genesis 1,

Robert (28:36)
Yeah, yeah, it's true.

Zach Clinton (28:57)
in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. He used his words to create those things. And people may say, literally in that situation, words created the world, but we don't have that same power. And he said, but yes, you do. Because your words, right, you can create a world of hurt or you can create a world of hope and healing for somebody. And so a lot of dads need to recognize, they need to humble themselves, and they need to look themselves in the mirror right now and ask themself,

what is the world that I'm creating within my home? What's the atmosphere? What's the environment? Is it a world of hope or is it a world of hurt? Because I'd be, I beg to differ, there's probably a lot of dads that if they did that simplistic practice today, they'd be able to catch themselves really utilizing maybe some words that aren't so uplifting. And I think that simplistic practice could potentially begin to change everything in their child's life.

Robert (29:50)
And you're not talking about going easy on kids and making them soft or anything like that. And I think a lot of dads when they're, look, going back to baseball and thinking about some of the dads that were yelling at their kids, I mean, they're loving dads. And I feel like It was well -meant, just gone about the wrong way.

Zach Clinton (29:54)
No, not at

Yes. Yes.

Yes, and we can talk about that for a second because in my opinion, there's a big difference between punishment and discipline. And when I talk to dads, are you kidding me? When I coach guys, when I do, when we're professional athletes, I'm hard on guys because I do it though from a place of care, a place of devotion, a place of love, a place of respect, a place of, you know what? I'm communicating to them all the time. Guess what? I'm not just gonna surround

I'm gonna support you and as scripture talks about in Proverbs 27, 17, as iron sharpens iron so one man should sharpen another, I'm gonna sharpen you. I wanna challenge you. I wanna help you get to the best of your capability in whatever your craft is, whatever you wanna pursue in this life. Why? Because I wanna make sure that you get there. So I'm not just gonna let you take the easy road. I'm not just gonna let you take the road that's most traveled. No, we're gonna do this thing together.

Robert (30:44)
Love

Zach Clinton (31:01)
I'm in your corner, I'm gonna push you, I'm gonna help you, I'm gonna support you, but that's the message that always has to be communicated. A lot of dads don't communicate that message, Robert. They push their kids, and remember, when you're screwing a bolt, when you screw it too tight, it can easily break, right? You have to recognize the difference in the balance between love and accountability. Where there's all love, guess what? Good relationship, no standard of excellence. Where there's all accountability,

No relationship, which leads to exhaustion, frustration, and burnout. You have to find this common line, and typically, it's just simply through the communication of, bud, I'm only pushing you because I care enough about you to do this, because I see so much potential in you that I want you to pursue this. If this is something that you wanna pursue, bud, can I help you get

and I know that sometimes I'm gonna push you, sometimes it might always feel well. I need you to feel safe enough with me, buddy, that you can come to me and let me know, Dad, you're pushing a little too hard. And I will be able to accept that influence from you. I will humble myself and I will be able to pull off a little bit more. But together, we're gonna collaboratively get you to achieve your goals. That's the message that I mean when I'm talking about communicating with your kids.

Robert (32:09)
How often do you see parents, dads specifically, wanting to be friends with their kids?

Zach Clinton (32:15)
Very often, I really do. And I think the big thing is, especially when it comes from single parent homes, truly, when it comes from single parent homes, you want your kids to like you. You want your kids to spend time with you. So I think a lot of times you see families sometimes where kids will almost begin to take advantage of those single parents. Because it's like, hey, I know dad or I know mom, they want me to like them, right? So I'm going to push my limits.

I'm going to ask for more things, hoping that I'll get those things in return, so on and so forth. And so being able to recognize the balance of those things, again, it goes back though to that love and accountability. Hey, I care about you enough that we have to have boundaries. We have to have limits here because it's only what's best in your best interest at heart. And I always have your best interest at heart. Of course, we're gonna be friends. My dad is my best friend. Someone that as I've continually grown into a man in adulthood throughout life,

We go golfing together, we eat lunch all the time together, hunting, fishing, all those types of things. But it's being able to recognize that we've gotten to this point because my dad learned at a young age of what it looked like to discipline me, what it looked like to show up for me, and what it looked like to provide me with a life of structure and a life where you know what, that provides a lot of opportunity for kids. And I craved that and I'm grateful that he gave me

Robert (33:35)
You know, you say that about single family homes, like when the boys are with me, I, I will see that where I feel like there's times when they will potential with it, where they will try to maybe take advantage of it. Cause they know that I want our time together to be, I don't want to say fun, but you know, to be positive. Yeah. Yeah. So it's easy to, it's easy to get, know, to go down to get in that slide of, I'm not going to discipline

Zach Clinton (33:54)
Exactly, you want to be meaningful.

Robert (34:03)
you know, and you almost have to remind yourself, like, feel like, you know, I need times to sit back and a lot of times it might be at the end of the day, you know, when they're in bed and me sitting there, you know, me thinking about, all right, how could I have handled the situation differently? What did I do? How did I mess up? you know, and then going back and, know, are being aware of it going forward and handling it different. And, know, having to remind them at times like, look, and I've told each of them several times.

I'm not your friend. One day we probably will be. And I look forward to that so much. But right now I'm your dad. You're not going to agree with a lot of things or with some things. Sometimes we probably might not even speak, but just know what's behind that. That I am your father and I'm raising you for adulthood.

Zach Clinton (34:34)
Yes.

Yes, and as you talk about discipline, think biblically in Hebrews 12, it talks about that God disciplines those that he loves, right? He has to discipline us as children. And I think of Hebrews, that's part of showing love. Hebrews 12, 11 then says, you know, no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. But then it goes on to say, later on, however, it will produce a harvest of righteousness and peace.

Robert (35:07)
That's part of showing love.

Zach Clinton (35:20)
for those who have been trained by it. And so I think it's important to remind our kids as the why behind the discipline, but also in reminding them it's not about what you're doing as much as it is and who you're becoming. And that's what I'm more concerned

Robert (35:34)
That's great. Hey, let me ask you this too. Challenges that use other challenge the challenges that you see face facing dads

Zach Clinton (35:44)
Facing dads today, man, I'd say we touched on one which was pressure. I would say another one probably is your past. A lot of dads struggle with their past and we kind of even insinuated on this a little bit where maybe they've made some mistakes, maybe they've had some, what they would identify as failures. But I remember a friend of mine, he always mentions that you cannot disqualify yourself from continuing to lead within your home.

within your family and within your marriage, even though, right, there have been some challenges. And that goes into almost like a lack of forgiveness of self. Because when we can't forgive ourselves, then all of a sudden, we'll begin to struggle with every other facet of our life. We put all of the shame, all of this blame on ourselves. And so I see a lot of men struggling with breaking free from their past. But then I would also go into, you've touched on this a little bit too, which is the phone. And I'll even go into pornography and purity.

Robert (36:42)
Yeah.

Zach Clinton (36:43)
Right, so the phone has diverted a lot of attention away from, I would say, children within the home, our relationships, our marriages, all of these different things, because we get so consumed with fame and fortune and influence and followers, and it's like, man, you guys, what are we doing? We're missing the most important things that life is really all about, which is our relationships, because we're so consumed by, you

who's gonna like our photo or who commented or what picture will we post next. It's it's insane to me. We get so lost and so fixated. I was at a soccer game recently. One of my nieces, she's five and she was playing soccer in a four to six year old league, right? It was a lot of fun to watch, I tell you that. And she's over there picking daisies and we're having a blast. But we're cheering her on, our whole family's there. But there was this one, I would assume, dad next to me. And this guy's there and this one little girl kept coming over to him and she kept saying, hey, look at

Robert (37:24)
Yeah.

Zach Clinton (37:38)
Look up at me, look at me. And he was so entrenched in his phone. It was like heartbreaking to me. I'm thinking to myself, dude, put the phone down. Like you're missing moments and memories that you'll never get back in this life. And then of course, like we talked about though, with the phone, with the addiction, right? There's so many different distractions that can come with that, that can lure us away.

from in a sense the destiny that God has for us. And pornography is one of those big things, Robert. It's rampant, not just throughout culture and society, but especially in men and especially in our boys. And being able to remind them of what this looks like, what purity looks like. One of a dear friend of ours at ACC who's also on our board, his name is Jim Cress. He's a licensed professional counselor, a certified sexual addiction therapist. And what he talks a lot about is that pornography, he goes off a 5 A's model. He says it's incredibly accessible.

because it's everywhere. It's incredibly affordable. You get it for free. It's kind of, in a sense, the drug or the addiction of choice amongst Christians and faith -based believers. Why? Because it allows you to remain anonymous. Then he goes on to talk about how it's airbrushed, how AI makes it out to be this grand thing when in reality that's completely false of what intimacy really means, what intimacy really looks like in our life. And then because of those four A's, it can become the fifth A, which is addicting. And it's never about

Robert (38:42)
Wow.

Zach Clinton (38:59)
the whatever it is that you're watching. It's never about the sex. It's never about the woman on the other side of the screen. It's about the feeling and the, in a sense, the craving that you get for that feeling of being intimate, for that feeling of just a quick fix. And typically what I teach a lot of times, not just when it comes to behavior modification for men that are wrapped up in this addiction of sexual compulsivity or pornography or infidelity, what I try to remind them is, hey, what

What's the driving factor behind this? Like what are you lacking in life that is leading you to reach for something like this, to numb or to anesthetize your pain, to make you feel a certain way? What is it underneath? Addictions are never a primary level thing. They're always a secondary issue. There's always something that always underlies the addiction in the first place. And so being able to get to the root of it, not just the fruit of it, but the root of it, that ultimately is where true hope and true healing and true change can take place.

Robert (39:57)
Well, you know, I'm hearing more and more about porn addiction and I've had different ones on and Myron Edmonds who was on not too long ago and then I had Dr. Lisa Paz who was on and she was talking about that. She's a, I think a sexologist, sex, whatever, sex doctor, let's say,

I was asking her some of the challenges or some of the things that she sees in, in boys that they're faced with today. And, she brought up porn and really open my eyes to, I did not at the time, I didn't realize that it was so accessible, but she was, you know, telling me on Twitter and Reddit and I don't really go to Reddit and Twitter is all it's mostly sports, a tiny bit of news.

Zach Clinton (40:25)
Mm -hmm.

Robert (40:48)
But so I guess it wouldn't pop up in my feed, but she was talking about that. I just had no idea. I think it's something that it's not going anywhere.

Zach Clinton (40:58)
It's not going anywhere, Robert. It's a huge issue. It's a huge problem, especially amongst our boys and our younger generation. The average year of exposure has now dropped like two years now. It's somewhere around like, I think it's nine or eight years old now, which is absolutely absurd to think about. But it's being able to recognize when this is a challenge. think we do a really good job of telling young boys what not to do, right? Don't do this. Don't look at this. Don't do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

but we never really help individuals, young boys understand what to do, right? And so when the world is placing such an emphasis on physical intimacy and sensuality, we need to place an emphasis on things like we've been talking about today when it comes to like emotional intimacy, because you see these boys who are so fixated on the physical aspects of relationships later on in life, they don't know how to do the emotional intimacy side of things. We talk about why are men struggling because nobody trained them how to do this at a young enough age.

Robert (41:49)
No. No.

Zach Clinton (41:55)
And so being able just to help grow and mold young men into these emotionally intelligent and emotionally regulated individuals who know how to do relationship the right way, who know how to provide some of the ingredients that we've already talked about in our conversation today, that's what intimacy is all about. It's all about mastering the art of the shared experience. There's a book by John Orberg out there called, I'd Like You More If You Were More Like Me. And in that he talks about how Christ

isn't just the greatest leader to walk the face of the earth, but he gives us the best representation of what intimacy really looks like. He talks about how Jesus, think about what Jesus did with his disciples. They ate together, they hung out together, they fished together, they hiked together, they prayed together, they did all of these things together. Then he went on to say that Jesus never placed efficiency over intimacy. He was perfectly willing to go about doing his work more slowly if it meant connecting with those that he loved more deeply.

Robert (42:49)
Sure.

Zach Clinton (42:53)
And so being able to recognize how do we do relationship. Let's place more of an emphasis on that because let me tell you, once you get married and in the bounds of marriage, guess what? Physical intimacy is a byproduct, not a goal. When you are emotionally close and intimate with your spouse, physical intimacy is the byproduct of those things.

Robert (43:07)
Yeah.

That is absolutely wonderful. I'm a switch complete gears on you. You ready? All right. So I want to talk about something that I struggle with and I'm sure, just from messages and DMS that I receive, through the podcast, I know others do as well.

Zach Clinton (43:16)
Let's do it. Yes, sir.

Robert (43:33)
forgiveness whether it's you know someone who's maybe lied about you maybe Parent alienation is involved. Maybe it's False allegations, know, it is so Zach. It is so hard to forgive when you feel that someone has done you so wrong or hurt you so bad, I Know that forgiveness

is talked about a lot in the Bible. Will you tell me, what do you suggest? What does the Bible say and what do you suggest for somebody that really struggles with that? Because I tell you what, that is extremely

Zach Clinton (44:17)
It's extremely hard. That's exactly right. And I think upfront, somebody that may be experiencing the hardship in terms of the lack of forgiveness in their life, let me just begin by saying I'm so sorry for what you've had to go through and for what you've had to endure. I can only imagine, right? I never, I always say that beauty's in the eyes of the beholder as the old saying would go, but pain is in the heart of the beholder. I could never speak to your depth of pain.

only you can speak to those things. So I'm going to begin by saying, I'm so sorry for what you've been through. When you look at a biblical understanding though of forgiveness, scripture is all about, right, understanding that forgiveness is really a command. And why is it a command? It's because it has our best interest at heart. When we recognize that, you know, why does God say, such as in Matthew 18 22, when Peter's asking God, you know, how many times am I supposed to forgive?

And Jesus says, 70 times seven times. That is a representation that we are to forgive with no end, with no limits. Why? Because I'm telling you guys, this stuff matters and it is so beneficial for you. I read a quote from, actually one of my pastors, he said this recently, he said, the cost of forgiveness is nothing in comparison to the benefit of forgiveness. A lot of us, talk about how difficult it is to forgive and I agree.

I've had situations and grievances in my life that I think of, man, I don't know if I'm ever gonna be able to get past that. I don't know if I'll be able to reconcile that relationship. And that's where we have to recognize, Robert, that forgiveness only takes one person. Reconciliation may take two, but again, forgiveness only takes one. What forgiveness, a lack of forgiveness, I should say, really looks like is you continually drinking the poison of the situation.

that maybe is causing this sense of rumination in your life where all you can do is fixate on the pain that someone else has caused you. So by choosing not to forgive, you're drinking the poison that you think somebody else should be drinking. And so when we say, you know what, I'm going to choose to forgive that person, that doesn't say that we're excusing their behavior.

That doesn't mean that we're pretending like what they did didn't happen because I believe this, that God is the only one who can truly forgive and forget. His word says that He forgives us, right? So much as far as the East is from the West. The only way we can forgive is through a humble recognition and acceptance that we have been forgiven. When we recognize that we are all sinners who fall short of the glory of God, but by the grace of God and because of what He did by sending His one and only Son,

to die a substitutionary death in our place, to rise again, defeating sin, defeating death so that we would have the opportunity of spending eternal life with him. We're so undeserving, but yet he chose to forgive. And so that gives me the hope that you know what? Even in this situation where I just cannot stand, maybe even to be in this person's presence, I can still choose to release that situation over to the Lord. I can choose to accept it for what it is. I can choose to let go. And then let me also add this

Forgiveness is not the same thing as trust, right? Just because I believe this as a believer and Christ talks about this, boundaries can still be put in play. Even when you forgive someone, even when you say, you know what, I'm not gonna allow this situation to have power over me anymore. I'm going to free myself of this situation by forgiving this individual, recognizing the depravity of man, recognizing that that person, you know what, yeah, they wronged me, but I'm not gonna hold it against them the rest of my life and continually drink from that poison. But...

But I'm also maybe not going to allow them to continually just come right back into my life and continually to hurt me and wound me and continue to bring damage into my lifetime and time again. That's where boundaries can begin to take place. And I believe that healthy boundaries can actually then begin the reconciliation process. Because then not only have I chosen to forgive, but if that person is on a process of progress, if they've chosen,

in a sense to continually push themselves to a level where they're trying to grow from their mistake. They're trying to reconcile the relationship on their own. Then guess what? Maybe once I see that process of progress, once I see some of their growth and development, then I can risk the opportunity of trusting that person again. So it's recognizing really Robert, what is forgiveness? It's freeing. And I will say that quote one more time from our pastor. The cost of forgiveness is nothing compared

to the benefit of forgiveness. So the two things we can do practically is accept the forgiveness of God in our own personal lives and then practice that forgiveness every day. It's not easy at all, at all, at all.

Robert (48:59)
And it's not easy. It's not easy. But I love I love what you said what you said about, you know, it's continuing to drink that poison again and again. I mean, I can, you know, I think about times in my life and I think about others when I mean, I'm thinking about one person specifically right now. And it is basically wrecked him and you can't be around him. Three, four minutes and he starts

going back to something that happened eight years ago, eight or nine years ago, and continues to bring that up and continues. it's just like, it just consumes him. And it has affected him professionally, affected him financially, and even with relationships. So I love what you said about

Zach Clinton (49:48)
But like you said, Robert, and I want to reiterate your point, that it's very hard and it's a process. Forgiveness, in my opinion, isn't just a one and done type of thing, where it's like, hey, you know what? I woke up today and I chose to forgive that person, and then tomorrow everything's all hunky dory and I'm not going to think about it again. No, forgiveness is a process that takes, I would say, a continual mindset and perspective that every day when I wake up, I'm going to have to make the choice to forgive that person all over again.

especially in more severe cases where maybe there's trauma involved, maybe there's abuse, maybe there is just challenge and adversity and there's been such heartbreak that you can't even fathom it in this moment. When you say that every day, you know what? Again, forgiveness really looks like surrender because God is the one who is the ultimate judge of those things in the first place. We are not. And so we have to learn how to let those things

over to the Lord, surrender those things, submit them at the foot of the cross. I think of 2 Corinthians 10, five, we're called to take every thought captive, right? Making them obedient to Christ. It's the same thing in terms of these thoughts of rage and anger and malice and unforgiveness. Let's take those thoughts and let's put them at the foot of the cross today. Let's surrender them and say, God, you know what? This is too heavy for me to carry. This weight is too big for me to bear.

I need your help in this process, but one thing I'm gonna choose to do today is I'm gonna choose the act of forgiveness by surrendering this over to you. And you know what, God? This is in your hands. You deal with it as you see fit. But I'm just so tired, I can't do this anymore on my own. And I need your help in and throughout this process. I think when we get to that place of surrender, I believe that forgiveness can then become easier day by day.

Robert (51:35)
And it is very freeing. is like chains are being broke. I mean, it is very freeing once you do. Once you do forgive.

Zach Clinton (51:42)
Most definitely, absolutely. And I think the last thing I would say on that too is sometimes the hardest person to forgive is yourself. And so being able to recognize that you have to be able to, that's why I said the first step is accepting the forgiveness of Christ and receiving his forgiveness every single day. And then choosing to really be intentional about living a life of repentance. Nobody likes the person who has to apologize about the same thing over and over and over again.

because they haven't taken it to heart and actually said, I'm gonna make the necessary changes to live a different life. The one person that really matters is the one who says, hey, I did this. And if you apologize, what that should mean is I'm not gonna do this again, or I'm gonna do everything to the best of my ability not to do this again. If it happens again, then it's getting even deeper into the root of those things. So being able to recognize, how do I forgive myself? Again, accepting the forgiveness of Christ and then practicing it by choosing to forgive oneself.

to move on, to surrender that situation over and find freedom away from the bondage of unforgiveness as well.

Robert (52:47)
Zach, that is wonderful. And I appreciate you discussing that. I definitely do. Hey, I want to be respectful of your time. Before you go, any parting advice or guidance for the dads out there? Any additional? You've provided so much already.

Zach Clinton (53:04)
I'll give one final thought. So I have a new book out called Even If, developing the faith, mindset, strength, and endurance of those who are built different. And in that book, I talk a lot about Daniel chapter three, one of my favorite accounts of scripture, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, how they were in a situation that was a predicament where King Nebuchadnezzar, the king over the entire empire of Babylon in those days, he built this massive 90 foot tall and nine foot wide altar or bronze statue.

And in this entire statue, he wanted when the sound of music played, everyone in the entire kingdom or empire was to bow down and worship his gods and the golden image he had put up before them. But three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, chose not to compromise to the ways of culture and their circumstances, but instead chose to conform more so to the image of Christ. And so they stood, they didn't bow.

And so King Nebuchadnezzar is furious and rage. He was kind of confronted by some of his brown -nosing fan club who were mad that he had appointed Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego into leadership positions in the chapter prior. And so they come to him, they're like, what are you gonna do about it? They challenge him. And so what King Nebuchadnezzar does is he summons them right into his presence. And he says, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, is it true? Like I found out that you guys were standing, is it true? I'll give you one more chance. We'll play the sound of the music.

If you choose to bow down and worship the golden image very well, but if not, then I'm gonna throw you into a burning hot fiery furnace. And I love how Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego responded because I feel like there's so many of us in our lives, Robert, who are in these types of predicaments where it's like, man, life is hard and life is challenging and we're given the option to conform and to give in and to cave to the ways of culture and our circumstances rather than again conforming to Christ. And this is how they respond.

They said, King Nebuchadnezzar, you don't even have the right to approach us about this matter. In other words, we've already made up our mind. Then they went on to give us a three -tiered prayer. Not only is our God able, but we believe that our God will deliver us from your majesty's hands. In other words, they're confident in God. They're confident in his perfect track record thus far. And then they offer these two transforming words that really have impacted me deeply to my core in my life. They said, but even if he does not.

We will not bow down to your gods or worship the golden image you've set up before us. And so what I want to remind people of, and backstory by the way, they get thrown into the burning hot fiery furnace because what we have to recognize is that God may not offer us perfect security from the fire, but he offers us his perfect security in the midst of the fire. Those three men that were thrown in, King Nebuchadnezzar was just furious with rage. Well, guess what? He looked and he said, what in the world? I see four men.

walking unbound in the midst of the flames and then he summons them. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, servants of the Most High God, come out and come here. And it says that they had all of their cloaks, there wasn't even a singed hair on their head, there was no smell of smoke on them. I want to remind people that in the midst of the fire again,

We serve a God who is not just allowing bad things to happen to you, but he's journeying alongside of you, experiencing the hurt, experiencing the betrayal, experiencing the challenges that you may be enduring right there in your midst. And he goes where he is invited. So invite him in. But then the last word I'll give you guys, there's a big difference between what if, only if, and even if. That's what this book is all about, principles that I've learned along the way. What if, a lot of people allow the fear of what if,

to make them settle for what is. They live in what I say is a place of analysis paralysis where they're so afraid of what could happen tomorrow, they're crippled from doing anything productive today. What if leads to a comfortable or a complacent faith? No growth involved. I don't want that. I don't know about you, Robert. I definitely don't want comfortable faith. Then there's the only if people. The only if people, very result driven, very result oriented. I'll do it only if it's comfortable and convenient, only if it works out in my favor, right?

only if leads to a contingent faith. I don't want comfortable, I don't want contingent. But then there's even if, right? These people that live with this even if mindset, even if it's hard, even if it hurts, even if I'm the only one doing it, even if it's the road less traveled, even if I don't get out of life what I was hoping or expecting or praying or preparing to get out of it, I'm gonna stay true to my faith, to my family, to my friends, and to the standard within me.

rather than succumbing to the expectations, the opinions, or the circumstances around me. And so the book is all geared around helping people understand that God is more concerned with your character than he is your comfort. And I offer some practical and simplistic lessons and perspective shifts along the way that hopefully will allow you and afford you the opportunity of living an even -if life.

Robert (57:57)
I love that. me this. Tell me the name of the book again.

Zach Clinton (58:00)
Even If, super simple, and then the subtitle is developing the faith, mindset, strength, and endurance of those who are built different.

Robert (58:08)
and you can find that where.

Zach Clinton (58:10)
You can find that on Amazon, really wherever books are sold or on my website, zackclinton

Robert (58:14)
Wonderful. Hey, so how else can people find you? Instagram's really how we got connected, but your Instagram handle, what is

Zach Clinton (58:24)
Yep, Instagram handle is Zach underscore Clinton six. My baseball number was six. And then Facebook, we have an AACC account, which is at, I think it's the AACC underscore on Instagram. Or if you go to aacc .net, you can look at all of our mental health resources, a lot of the courses that we have to offer, a lot of the events that we have coming up that you can be a part of, such as our Ignite Men's Impact Weekend. We have one coming up in Grand Prairie, Texas this October.

18th and 19th, and then another one in March 7th and 8th in Lynchburg, Virginia, which is our hometown event. We have a fantastic lineup down in Texas. We have guys like Tim Tebow, Rick Rigsby, Darrell Strawberry, Chad Robichow, a ton of different guys. Then it's gonna be an incredible time where we can just grow our relationship with the Lord, but especially grow and build our community with one another as well. So a lot of different outlets. Probably the most simplistic one is just zackclinton

Robert (59:18)
Zach, thank you brother. I appreciate so much you coming on. I know you are extremely busy and I'm glad we got to connect and I so much appreciate you coming on.

Zach Clinton (59:27)
Robert, I appreciate you, my friend. I see this being a fast growing and blossoming friendship. I love what you're doing and I'm grateful for your heart and the opportunity,

Robert (59:35)
Well, thank you. Thank you. And, I look forward to that as well. So thank you so much. Hey, and thank you all for listening to the dad to dad's podcast. You can find us on Spotify or Apple podcast as well as on YouTube and Instagram. Also don't forget to hit that like and subscribe button so you don't miss any future episodes and we will see you all next