Narcissism; Nature or Nurture? Debunking the Myths. Interview with Dr. Peter Salerno

In this interview, Robert welcomes back Dr. Peter Salerno, author of 'The Nature and Nurture of Narcissism.' Dr. Salerno discusses his alternative perspective on narcissistic personality disorder and the misconceptions surrounding it. He challenges the traditional theories that attribute narcissism solely to abuse or neglect in childhood, emphasizing the role of genetics and innate temperament. Dr. Salerno also addresses the concept of codependency, arguing that it is not a valid diagnosis and that narcissists can manipulate and hijack the emotions of others. He highlights the importance of understanding the genetic and biological factors that contribute to narcissism. Narcissists thrive on chaos and drama in relationships because of deficiencies in their brain structure and functioning. They have a complete lack of empathy and lower arousal in certain areas of the brain, making stability and normalcy boring to them. They have a distorted perception of reality and believe that drama is the baseline of normal functioning. Narcissists have personal motives in relationships that have nothing to do with the well-being of the other person. When confronted or exposed, they can become vindictive and play the victim.

Takeaways

• Narcissistic personality disorder should be understood from the perspective of gene-environment interaction, rather than solely attributing it to abuse or neglect in childhood.
• The traditional theories of narcissism overlook the role of genetics and innate temperament in the development of the disorder.
• Codependency is not a valid diagnosis and should not be used to explain why individuals attract narcissists.
• Narcissists have the ability to manipulate and hijack the emotions of others, leading them to behave in ways that are uncharacteristic.
• It is important to consider the genetic and biological factors that contribute to narcissism in order to better understand and address the disorder. Narcissists thrive on chaos and drama in relationships because stability and normalcy are boring to them.
• They have a distorted perception of reality and believe that drama is the baseline of normal functioning.
• Narcissists have personal motives in relationships that have nothing to do with the well-being of the other person.
• When confronted or exposed, narcissists can become vindictive and play the victim.

Transcript

Robert (00:00)
Hey everyone, and welcome back to the dad to dad's podcast. So my next guest is a familiar face, but one who is also turning the psychiatric world on its head, especially after his last book titled the nature and nurture of narcissism, understanding the narcissistic personality disorder from the perspective of gene environment interaction, Dr. Peter Salerno, Dr. Salerno.

Welcome back to the podcast.

Peter Salerno (00:29)
Thank you for having me back.

Robert (00:31)
So tell me this, what's been going on since the last time you've been on? You've written a book, congratulations. What else has been going on with you?

Peter Salerno (00:36)
Thank you. Yeah. Just pretty much, I was working on the book, working on finishing that up and just kind of continuing to help people who are identifying and resonating with this perspective that I'm offering because previous help may not have been as helpful as they hoped and...

So just kind of working on trying to offer an alternative perspective to some of the common knowledge that we've been accustomed to kind of just taking in as fact that may not necessarily be holding up as much as we originally thought. But just working in my practice and doing consultations and doing therapy and

Just staying busy that way.

Robert (01:30)
You know, I was looking at the reviews and some of the comments of your book and it's definitely been well received by a lot. And it's amazing the different ones. Like I knew this, I knew, and we'll get into the book in a minute, but I knew this had to be the case. So it's really resonated with a lot of people.

Peter Salerno (01:45)
Mm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Robert (01:50)
And you've also, you have created a few waves as well.

which we'll get into that too. But hey, let's go into it. The reason behind writing the book. Tell me.

Peter Salerno (02:03)
Mm

Yeah, the reason behind writing the book is, well, it's in the book in the earlier chapters, but essentially, so again, my background, I have a doctorate in psychology. I also have a master's in clinical psychology. And in my degree programs, there is very little emphasis on personality pathology, abnormal psychology, psychopathology, not just in my programs, but just kind of across the board. So people aren't...

coming out of these degree programs with this kind of specialization in an area that is causing a lot of trouble and doesn't seem to respond to the traditional classical interventions that we've grown accustomed to accepting as valid, right? People are being—people are going to therapy who are being abused by individuals who have a certain type of brain.

structure and functioning, a certain type of personality structure, and they're being invalidated by professionals because the professionals are coming up with reasons why they might be being abused or mistreated, and these perspectives are causing much more harm than good. And I've experienced it professionally, I've experienced it personally, not that personal experience makes you an expert in anything, but you know, like I just...

I can understand how frustrating it is to try to get answers to something and being told by a professional that what you're telling me can't be possible because this is what the theory says. And it's infuriating to be on the receiving end of desperately seeking help and being told, well, you just need to work on yourself a bit more and these problems will go away. No one's factoring in this possibility that

Some people do really terrible things to other people on purpose, and it's not because bad things happen to them. That's also not my original idea, but whenever I say that, I get a lot of heat. But that's okay because I'm somebody who's trying to find, you know, the truth and to help in a way that's actually helpful, and if that...

you know, upsets some people, which I think it's going to. That's not my intention, but I'm not going to stop promoting the research that I find and I'm not going to stop sharing it. But essentially that's why I wrote the book, is because we've been taught—there's a lot of pseudoscience out there, and we've been taught a lot of things that no one's ever questioned, because they've been embedded into our thinking structure, our belief structure, even as a culture and a society, so that we just assume

We know everything we need to know, and we can pinpoint the reason, but nothing's getting better. So when do we go back to the drawing board? And so that's really what the book is about, is like, here's some new takes on this that are less popular that are extremely helpful and invaluable and not harmful unless you, you know, create a meaning around them that they're harmful. So...

Robert (05:17)
So let me ask you this. Have you received some pushback, a good bit of pushback from colleagues, peers in the psychology, psychiatric world, that type?

Peter Salerno (05:27)
I mean, I would say less pushback from colleagues. I think there's confusion among colleagues. So they're like, well, hey, that's not what I learned in school. That's not what I'm learning in my continuing education. And so then the conversation kind of becomes more like, that's not what I learned either, but I'm not going to continue banging my head against the wall when it's not working. Here's what I've discovered.

Here's some other training seminars, other experts who have a new perspective on this. By the way, those experts are the ones who originated the ideas that we've been accepting and have gone back and said, I think we were wrong. Here's the proof that we were wrong. I'm willing to accept that I have to change some of these theories based on the new data that we're receiving. colleagues, not so much. Some of them are kind of like, well, maybe, maybe not.

Others are kind of like, okay, that's interesting. The main pushback I get is...

One, from people who don't understand what the word genetics means, but think they do. And that's not an insult, but like when I say things like that, I get pushback. Or people who need to hold on to their confirmation biases for some other reason, whether it's a personal reason, and they desperately are clinging to these biases because to be proven wrong in their eyes means something bad.

You gotta remember, I'm in the company of having been proven wrong too. I proved myself wrong because I believed things for a very long time, implemented them in clinical practice, in professional life, in personal life. They weren't working, so I went and sought more answers. So I was wrong too because we're taught what we're taught by who teaches us. And when things don't work, I don't...

and things don't produce results, I'm not comfortable with that.

Robert (07:33)
Well, that's very humble of you and it's a little bit narcissistic, I think of the others with, because they don't want to be proven wrong or shown to be wrong. I I just felt it's kind of interesting there.

Peter Salerno (07:44)
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's... So here... I'm glad this is kind of coming up. Here's what I thought would happen when I... Because really what I did is like, I have some articles here in front of me and I was reading them. I was reading them over about a year ago and they say things like, behavioral genetics studies have found that for most traits genetics is more important than parental influence. And I'm like...

That is really interesting. my God, I've never heard that before. So when I put it out there, I thought people were gonna go, that's really interesting. I never heard that before. Or, I probably kind of always knew that but didn't put it in those words. Or, I don't know, maybe, maybe not. I don't really care. But I really didn't anticipate the barrage of like hate, hatred and anger and hostility over...

something that has someone else's name on it. Like, I didn't write it, I just read it out loud and thought it would be interesting to share and open a discussion. I didn't think that people were going to be treating empirical research in a field like psychology the way they treat religion and politics. But that's kind of how it feels.

It does get overwhelming once in a while. People can hurt my feelings. I'm not immune to my feelings getting hurt because I'm a professional. So it's also kind of confusing too because again, when I say things, and even in the book, I don't mean offense by this, this is just what the data has shown. It's almost like, I don't know. I don't know what kind of button that pushes in a lot of people, but it's...

Robert (09:27)
No, I kind of think, and we were talking about before, but I kind of think we're talking a little bit about before. kind of think sometimes when you get push back, you're on the right track. Believe me, I get a lot of pushback with this podcast and especially at the beginning and there's nothing in this, you know, it's dad to dad's podcast. It's primarily focused on dads, but of course, like a segment like this, this is for anybody.

And the majority of them really are any parent can gain benefit whether it's parent alienation divorce Whatever when we make it pretty across the board for either parent Well from the beginning it was But I think because of the name and just some of the subject which again was not You know downgrading women or moms or anything like that I was getting so much pushback and

while some of it was kind of hurtful, some of it also, and the other way it was like, you know what? I'm on to something. I'm going to dig deeper into this and, I'm, I'm happy you haven't let the, you know, negative people, the negative Nancy's, the whoever, keep you from doing so. I mean, I really am. And it's, it's been great to watch cause you know, I follow you and it's been great to watch.

and to read the different comments and the people that are getting help from you and that totally agree that are in the trenches that have been in these relationships with a narcissist or somebody with personality disorder and to be like, I knew it. You're that is so it you are you are, you know, 100 % correct. So I applaud you. really do.

Peter Salerno (10:53)
Mm

Mm

Yeah, I appreciate that. And that's why I'm continuing to do it is because, you know, for -

For one person to feel like this information is life -changing in a positive way and validating and kind of confirms what they always knew but maybe were told was untrue or couldn't possibly be, either by a professional or the person in their lives who's giving them trouble, just one person emailing me and saying like, I just...

I can't believe how much better I feel after reading the book. It's worth it. It's worth all the other nonsense. So it's not gonna deter me or I'm not gonna stop anytime soon, but I'm also trying to affect change in a positive way. I'm not trying to vilify anybody. We use these terms, narcissist, borderline. They're not pejorative terms. They're not insults. These were descriptive terms determined by professionals so they could make sense of what somebody was doing.

in their life. And I don't know why that's lost among a lot of people, but to me it's no different than an oncologist talking about cancer research. They have the right to. They know better than you, unless you are an oncologist, and you can say whatever you want about the cause, the etiology, the risk factors, but I'm not going to take anyone's advice if I have cancer unless they are a specialist.

That just kind of makes sense to me. But psychology has been a weird field because it's sort of originated out of philosophy, right? So there's almost this idea that it's like it's anyone's game. Like whoever has the ability to think has the ability to determine what things mean. And that's just not true. I mean, we have technologies, advanced technologies now that can determine a lot of the ways why...

a lot of the reasons why people behave the way they do. And it's not always because of an early parental experience. It's just... there's no...

Robert (13:15)
Well, I am glad you're pushing the boundaries and I want to jump into it. What are some of the biggest misconceptions of narcissism or what people believe or what people have been taught?

Peter Salerno (13:25)
Yeah.

So historically there have been kind of two roads or pathways to the development of narcissism as far as classical theories suggest. One is abuse and neglect in early developmental stages of life, brain development stages, where it was crucial to have a certain nurturing and a certain environment that allows you to go into

maturation in an adaptive way. abuse, neglect, chaotic environment, attachment ruptures, that type of stuff.

I'm not denying those things have an impact. Never did. Never will. The other pathway is overindulgence and overvaluation of people. So you basically convince them early on that they are better than other people, that they're more special, that they're entitled to special treatment. They run with that, never question it. And so now you have these two pathways to narcissism, to personality pathology kind of in general.

And then some of those also, historically, people perceive them as leading to certain subtypes of narcissism. So there's the vulnerable narcissist, there's the grandiose narcissist, and depending on your environment, these theories, these perspectives, don't factor in the human genome at all. They don't factor in DNA.

They don't factor in biologically based temperament. They don't assume that we have anything to work with prior to exposure to an environment. Which blows my mind. Because... Yeah, so we're like essentially a blank slate and we're passive recipients of everything and it's everyone else's fault what happens to us no matter what because we have no leg to stand on as individuals.

Robert (15:11)
Yeah, it's all through experience, through what they've experienced in their life growing up.

Peter Salerno (15:26)
We have no startup starting material. We're just a blank canvas. And then if we happen to have the unfortunate circumstance of a neglectful childhood, then we may or may not grow up to be narcissistic. And that's the interesting thing too is all of these theories have this idea like, well, not all people who were abused or neglected are narcissistic and not all people who were overvalued and overindulged are narcissistic. So how do you account for those?

who grew up in warm, loving, nurturing environments and are narcissistic? Or why is it that not everyone who's on the same trajectory, with the same environmental influences, what's different about some people? You know? And this isn't just with personality pathology, this is with PTSD, depression, anxiety. Why do some people have it and some don't if the cause is...

is parenting or environment only? I it stands to reason—I don't even want to—like, that's just a question that I would be very curious to ask. If the results don't add up, if it doesn't add up, then what is it? What are we missing?

Robert (16:37)
Yeah, I've always wondered that. so basically that question came to your head. You saw this and that made you dig in and start studying it more so and found this or?

Peter Salerno (16:51)
Well, so, yeah, so, and I think, I don't think a lot of people know this. They think my career started when my, I first posted on Instagram, but I've been doing this almost 15 years now. Yeah. So, so my experience isn't limited to my first post on narcissism, which is a ridiculous thing, but, but anyway, so I've been immersed in the trauma world for...

Robert (17:02)
Little bit before then, right?

Peter Salerno (17:20)
over a decade. And so in multiple various environments, settings with different populations, with different ages, different demographics, and there always seemed to be these individuals who had these trauma diagnoses or these depression diagnoses and weren't getting better with the evidence -based treatments that everybody else was responding to.

And it was very interesting. I just kept thinking, like, I'm doing the same interventions, of course, tailoring them very uniquely to the individual, because everybody does have a unique personality, even though some features are kind of, you know, undifferentiated or kind of shared. We all are unique, just like our fingerprint. But then there's these kinds of things that just keep coming up, like this antagonism, this combativeness.

this blaming circumstances, doing the intervention that they requested and it not producing results or it making them worse. And so you kind of have to wonder why aren't these people's nervous systems responding to...

the trauma intervention that's successful if what is wrong with them is that they've been traumatized. Again, a logical question. Not an insult, just curiosity. Like, why is it that this one person keeps doing the same thing over and over knowing that it's going to produce the same consequences that are life -altering? It's the sixth divorce. It's the sixth time in prison. The moment they get out of prison, they go back for doing the exact same thing within 24 hours.

Why aren't some people learning from their mistakes? Why aren't some people expressing any guilt or remorse? Why aren't some people able to say, can see where I played a part in that? But then they're still saying that they're traumatized and everyone else is treating them like they are. So, I mean, that's that wall I was talking about, like banging your head against, like it doesn't add up. And then, so then there's this other

possibility that maybe we have this starting material that influences much more than we originally thought. I'm not saying that it's all 100 % genetic, but what I'm saying is maybe there's something in an individual's temperament where they have an excess or a deficiency in certain traits that prevent them from responding to these treatments. And we have to call that something else then. We can't call it trauma. We have to call it something else.

This has been a problem historically in psychology since the beginning, which is why they classified personality disorders originally on what was called the different axis. They didn't know what to do with the people who weren't responding the way everyone else was, so they just exiled them and said, we're gonna call this something else. I mean, it's probably related to the same thing, but we don't know why they're not acting like the same thing, so we'll just put it over there and figure it out. Well, we're kind of starting to figure it out, like,

There's these traits that are innate, historically.

Robert (20:33)
Well, it makes sense. And, you know, I know we touched on it when you were on before, but when you look at, let's use the example of twins or siblings, however, and both of them raised the exact same way, you know, both of them side by side, maybe there's over, overindulgence, or maybe they experience some sort of trauma in their childhood.

Peter Salerno (20:39)
Mm

Robert (21:01)
And you have one that grows up to be a narcissist. The other one doesn't, or I don't want to say it grows up to be a narcissist, but you know, is, is diagnosis a narcissist and the other one doesn't. It makes sense. You were raised as it makes sense that it would be genetic, right?

Peter Salerno (21:18)
Even if you weren't raised exactly the same, like even if there were some aspects or features of the parenting in the same household that were a little bit different because even parents have to respond a little differently to the unique temperaments of their kids, but if there was a general fairness, a general, you know, generosity, a warmth, a loving, and then it was kind of tailored specifically to certain...

unique traits of the individuals, there are still cases with twins raised together but also raised apart where what we refer to as the concordance rate, so the percentage of things that are the same regardless of environment, regardless of raised together apart, is 77 % in twins when it comes to narcissism. How is that being ignored? Like, how do we ignore that if, I mean...

You literally can have a twin who was adopted from a foreign country, raised in America, and then the other one stays in that country. And these studies have revealed that 70 % one has it if the other does.

Robert (22:29)
All right. So as a parent, have to ask you this. I've read so much and received advice, some of it online, some of it from people, never tell your kid, they're really smart. Never tell your kid after a sporting event that they did great. They were really great out there because if you do, you have a good chance of them becoming a narcissist. So you're throwing water on that. So I can tell.

Peter Salerno (22:31)
Mm

BS.

So.

Robert (22:58)
I can tell my sons if they play really, really well that, Hey, you did great. You were great out there. And I don't have to worry about them becoming a narcissist because of that, right? Because of me saying that.

Peter Salerno (23:04)
If they're

No. And if their temperament actually is a temperament that needs that, that validation, because just as much as there's excesses in grandiosity and a narcissist, there's also deficiencies in people who have lower— If you don't tell them that, I would say that's grounds for arguing neglect in some cases.

Robert (23:27)
Yeah. Well, I've wondered at times, maybe I'm raising two narcissists because, I will, I mean, it's just, I'm going to tell them like you did great, you know, man, you are so smart. Like you, you really studied it. You know, you great grades. I'm so proud of how smart you are and so proud of the efforts you've put in. And I do that, you know, who knows? So

Peter Salerno (23:48)
Yeah. So in therapy, we have this thing, there's a humanistic perspective, a person -centered approach to therapy where it's essentially you offer a client unconditional positive regard and you provide them a corrective emotional experience. So those two things are essentially whatever they bring to you, you validate as respecting that that's their experience and then you

if they've had difficulties in relationships that were crucial, that fell short, you provide them the emotional experience that they needed that they never got. In a neurotypical brain, which is a normal brain, I don't use, I don't know, I'm not, I know people say neurodivergent and all that stuff, I believe there's a normal and an abnormal, and I'm abnormal in some ways and I'm normal in other ways. So I'm, present company included, but in a normal brain.

When you give those things to someone, they thrive. They don't take advantage of it. They don't manipulate it. They don't use it as an excuse. They take it in and it feels really good and it feels... it can repair ruptures. It can make someone feel seen for the first time in their life. When you do those same things to a narcissist, they chew you up and spit you out and they use it to their advantage and their...

it amplifies their narcissism. it's not that telling somebody that they're great or they're smart or they're the best is a problem. It's what is the starting material? You gotta figure that out. And then you have to determine what this person's going to do with that information. It's the meaning they make out of the information. And that comes from, a large percentage of that comes from genetic traits.

Robert (25:43)
can I dig into that a little bit more? When you say if you did that to a narcissist, if you were to compliment them, give them platitudes, and you said they would chew you up, spit you out, what do you mean?

Peter Salerno (25:44)
Mm -hmm.

Mm

Yeah. Well, it gives them an advantage over you because the narcissistic brain is an abnormal brain, according to what we have accepted culturally or in society as normal. Because that brain is abnormal, what it does with that sensory data, that information, is it tries to use it to an advantage to exploit. It's a confirmation, not a validation.

They don't feel validated when you tell them, yeah, it makes sense why you did this or that. It confirms that it was okay to do it, and it gives them fuel to do it again.

Robert (26:33)
sense. Hey, I want to ask you a question. I'm gonna kind of jump around. I want to ask you a question on codependence. Did I read where you said there's no such thing as codependence? Yeah. Tell me about that.

Peter Salerno (26:40)
yeah.

Yeah, codependency was a term that originated in Alcoholics Anonymous. It was essentially a term that meant when somebody enables the addictive behavior of someone so much that it's almost like the addiction is affecting them just as much as it's affecting the addict. And so there's this enmeshment or this enabling factor that's kind of like...

keeping the addiction going in a way. And so you're sort of like, you don't know where you end and they begin. And then in the 80s, there was a really popular book written about it in the context of relationships and how it's no longer like an addiction term. It kind of became more broadly as like a way of being with people. And now it's being used as the reason why people draw narcissists into their life.

And that's where I drew the line, because it's not true that you have to be a certain way to attract a narcissist. Narcissists vet everybody and see who they can best exploit. And they typically actually end up with people who are extremely resilient and tolerant of a lot of BS because they want—they want—they're in it for the long haul. They don't prey on the weak, the codependent—

Robert (27:43)
Okay.

Peter Salerno (28:06)
the insecure, it's not true. Is it true that if you feel a certain way about yourself, like you have low self -esteem or, you know, you have insecurities that you might be vulnerable to a narcissist? Yes. But that's not why they came into your life. They'll pick anybody who's willing to tolerate their BS. And it doesn't stop with people who are lacking intelligence or who are lacking resiliency.

or who depend on other people because they can't think for themselves. All those are myths. So I don't like how codependency has become like this catchphrase or this buzz term for people who they had all these problems with their boundaries and that's why they were abused. That's when I get upset because there are plenty of people who are not codependent and in fact the research of

victims and survivors, they don't identify with codependency like over 70 % of the time. They're not having these codependent issues in their life and then they're being targeted by someone and then they fall prey to them. So that's what I mean when I say it's not a thing. It's also not a formal diagnosis. It's never been. The closest thing I would say to that,

is another personality disorder in a different cluster other than the cluster B's, which is called dependent personality disorder. But the prevalence of that is not anywhere near close to how many people are being accused of being codependent.

Robert (29:46)
Yeah, that is interesting because I mean, even from my general layman's education, I mean, you always think, okay, well.

The partner of a narcissist is codependent. I mean you're told that you know, okay you You're obviously codependent for putting up with that for Attracting a narcissist and you're saying exactly that is not the case

Peter Salerno (30:08)
You can... Narcissists have this uncanny ability, people don't believe, a lot of people don't believe this either, but EEG's, EEG recordings of brain activity have like proven this. People can make you feel things. And narcissists can make you feel a lot of things. Or they can make you not feel a lot of things. So they can biochemically hijack you.

in a way where you get hooked into their drama and you start reacting to them in ways that are really uncharacteristic of you and that aren't showing up in any other aspects of your personality, like your work life, your family life. But in this one context, you behave completely differently, but that's manipulation. That's not... That's being manipulated. That's literally what being manipulated means. So, you... That's what I hear from everybody. Like, I really don't remember...

like ever having these types of issues in other relationships. I don't remember being needy or clingy or even mean and I can't stop myself in this context. And that's how you know that pattern's not pervasive and enduring in you. That's how you know that there's an external problem there.

Robert (31:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense. So you kind of brought it up. But it seemed I want to ask you this. It seems like we as society or most people we strive for

peaceful, you know, just balanced life, a lot of stability.

But it seems with a narcissist that upsets them that they thrive on chaos drama. if, you know, if they come to that point, let's say it's a relationship and everything's going great and there's harmony and you know, kumbaya, we're all getting along. Everything's great. That upsets them and they, they, you know, have to create something. Is that true?

I mean, that's kind of what I've seen and read and everything else. Is that true that they do that they thrive on the chaos and if so, why?

Peter Salerno (32:15)
Well, there's, again, there's deficiencies and excesses in their trait expression that most people would take kind of for granted, like we're all the same, we all look the same, so we kind of all maybe think and feel the same. And with a narcissist, a truly pathological narcissist, there's abnormalities in the structure and functioning of their brain, so they don't take in sense data the way everyone else does. There are...

Severe deficiencies are a complete lack of empathy, right? So there's also different areas in the brain that have like lower arousal and So when things are stable and normal It kind of is more it's boring to them They don't see it as something they can't be Stimulated in the same way so they require things that are a bit more excessive. So when they meet someone who's stable Oftentimes they feel like they're kind of Bored out of their minds

and so they want to create drama. There's also just mechanisms in the way that they think and feel and believe and perceive reality that make them relate with more drama than with problem solving or collaboration. They're never in a relationship to collaborate. There's always some sort of a personal distorted reason for being in a relationship and it's an advantage to them but nobody else. And so well -meaning people will relate to them.

and think that they're having this collaborative reciprocal exchange, but it's just not being perceived that way by a narcissist. They're not looking for that. They're not looking for attachment, they're not looking for warmth, they're not looking for sharing and caring. They're really not even looking for love. They're looking for some way that this can benefit them regardless of the consequences. And so they...

You might want to say they... you can say they thrive on the drama, but I think they actually just believe that that is the baseline of normal functioning, is that things have to be dramatic and chaotic in order for them to be normal.

Robert (34:23)
So there's an end game for them in relationships.

Peter Salerno (34:27)
Yeah, there's a motive, yeah. It's a personal motive that has nothing to do with the benefit or the well -being of the relationship or the other person. And it can look like it can catch people off guard, but oftentimes people will settle into a relationship with a narcissist and when they stop...

like sufficiently admiring the narcissist, that's when the trouble comes. It's not even necessarily that something terrible happened, like an affair or a... It could just be that the narcissist is now not feeling like they are being idealized enough. So they start to create problems because of that. But they don't play fair either. So the problems just create this chaos because they're not confronting the person and saying, hey, I need you to tell me how great I am. You haven't said that in a while. It's more like...

I'm gonna go find somebody else to tell me how great I am and then I'm gonna justify that because you are neglecting me. So then they go have an affair, they justify it. Not that everyone who has an affair is a narcissist. I've learned I gotta be very careful to say those things, those follow -up things. Not everyone who has an affair is a narcissist, that's not what I said. But a narcissist will use an extramarital affair to get that admiration and confirmation that they're amazing and they still got it.

Robert (35:48)
Yeah.

Peter Salerno (35:53)
And then they will go and bring that home and be completely content not feeling guilty, not feeling any shame, not feeling any remorse, not beating themselves up at night when no one's looking because they're so vulnerable and weak, none of that. Just justified in what they did because they weren't getting what they felt they were entitled to. And once they get confronted with that, that's when things get really bad because

If you just let them do and be, they're fine. It's when you confront them that things start to get bad and go south.

Robert (36:29)
So when they're exposed or when you find out that they are a narcissist, they realize that you have the knowledge that they're a narcissist. That's when things can get bad.

Peter Salerno (36:40)
When they... no, but not even that they... because they don't think they're... narcissists don't think they're narcissistic. They don't. They don't refer to themselves as that at all. They think they're completely well -balanced.

Robert (36:49)
Do they realize they're screwed up? Like, do they realize they think in a whole different pattern? Like, hey, this isn't normal, this isn't good? Or do they just...

Peter Salerno (36:58)
So here's the problem with that is because they expect that what they're thinking, feeling, perceiving, and believing is right, no. It's not, they don't think that they're doing anything wrong or that they're wrong. And so when you tell them that, they take offense to it because they expect you to just know that they're right. So there's this expectation, and that's another thing that people don't understand about narcissists. A lot of them aren't like out to get you. I'm not defending them.

But a lot of them aren't out to get you in a vindictive and sadistic way like a psychopath, and they're not going to try to make you believe them. They already know they are the best thing in the world. If you don't, that's your problem. And oftentimes that results in getting discarded. They just expect that you know the truth, which is that they're the greatest. They don't demand it oftentimes. So it's sort of like they don't—they just don't get it. You're weird and you're kind of a moron.

if you don't right And that has to do with this trait that we call grandiosity. That is their main trait. And it's innate. It's an excessive amount of it. So it's this self -importance that's off the charts. And so if you tell a narcissist that they're off the charts, then yeah, that's going to amplify their narcissism. And so overvaluing them...

Robert (37:58)
You're below them.

Peter Salerno (38:23)
overindulging in them is going to make things worse, but they already had that starting material of it being, you know, being what it is, which is what a lot of people just don't recognize or don't know or haven't been informed of.

Robert (38:39)
You know, it's interesting over the years, it seems like the different ones that I've spoken with that have been in relationships with a narcissist.

It seems like the book's the same and the characters are different. You follow me? It seems like it's almost the same book. Like, they do things the same way. They treat the person almost the same way. They have almost the same responses. And it's just a, you know, it's just told a different way, a little bit different and with different characters.

Peter Salerno (39:09)
Ahem.

Well, you know what?

Robert (39:12)
It's not Tim that's the main character, it's Sam, or it's not Sally, it's Samantha, or whatever. Is that common? I mean, is it really that common?

Peter Salerno (39:21)
Well, you know what fascinates me about that? That piece of information? That happens across the globe in every culture, in every society, in every socioeconomic class. These features are present, they're enduring, they're pervasive, they're identifiable, and everybody's telling the same story when they encounter a person like this. Regardless of culture, upbringing, socioeconomic status, gender...

race, orientation. That's what's so interesting is that how can you overlook that component when it's across the board all over the world? It's not just happening in this way here, it's happening in this way everywhere. To me, that's like gotta have something to do with DNA. Now, maybe 50%, let's say. Let's just say, let's just, let's just.

average it out and not say 77%. Let's say it's 50%. If I told you you have a 50 % chance today of getting lung cancer, would you not be alarmed? Like, is that not enough for you to be concerned? So, again, we're not talking about like, genetics isn't everything. honestly, genetics isn't destiny either. But it's like you have this kind predisposed trait profile.

Robert (40:29)
Yeah.

Peter Salerno (40:46)
And we've been doing this, and again, I'm probably going to get in trouble for this, but I'm going to make a comparison to like dogs for dog breeding, for example. We've done these dog breedings to get certain results for certain traits and temperaments.

Robert (40:57)
Right.

Peter Salerno (41:00)
And it's fairly consistent. So we have genes too. Every neuron in our body contains genes. They do influence how we are, and there are certain traits that are present in certain people, and that are more pronounced, more excessive, and then there are ones that are more deficient. And over time, we've started to categorize that and classify that.

Robert (41:03)
Mm

Peter Salerno (41:28)
not in an insulting way, just to make sense of what you just said. Like, every single person's coming with this kind of very, very eerily similar experience.

Robert (41:37)
Peter, it's crazy. It's amazing. You know, because it really is. And I was talking to somebody two nights ago and it was, I mean, it's a story I've heard over and over and over again. It's just a different, it's different characters and different sex, different, you know, it's, amazing.

Peter Salerno (41:54)
Mm

Well, and it happens to me too, like on social media, and I think I want to say something about that. I think people assume that if you're a therapist, that you're a therapist everywhere. Like, I think and talk to people the way I would if I'm sitting in a room with them, or you know, and that's just not true. So I have a little bit more freedom to, you know, like, say things that I want to say when I'm not wearing that hat.

So if people come at me, I'm gonna defend myself, is what I'm saying. Like in a way where I'm just, just as if somebody came up to me on the street, I'm not gonna try to validate them and figure out if they're talking to me that way or trying to hit me because something happened to them in childhood. That's not my role at that point. I'm not their therapist. So, across the board, I get comments and then I can predict, I can predict with 100 % certainty how the conversation's gonna go.

based on the first comment that gets shot at me. And I referred to it in my most recent post as like the verbal sucker punch. They put something out that they want you to take the bait. If you take it, they're gonna then throw a devaluing comment, because all they wanted was your attention, and then they're gonna sucker punch you. And if you don't know it's coming, you're gonna start floundering. You I don't understand why I thought we were having a normal conversation. Why are you being...

That's what they want because that's where the drama escalates. So you can get really good at identifying the setup.

Robert (43:37)
Do you mind? I saw it on your post, but do you mind giving an example of that for the podcast? Like what are you? Yeah.

Peter Salerno (43:42)
of like the verbal sucker punch? Yeah, verbal sucker punch is like, so yeah, so let's say, the example I used on the post is somebody comes home from work and their partner is already home and the personality disordered or the cluster B personality disordered partner asks them, seemingly innocently, how was work? They say, it was actually not bad, I got two new accounts today.

Robert (43:48)
I thought it was really good the way you did it.

Peter Salerno (44:12)
The cluster B personality will then say, in person, over the phone, just general inquiry, very like, there's like this rhythm to it that it's it's just genuine, yeah, benign. And the person's response is no, well they were both over the phone actually. And so here's where the sucker punch comes. Then the personality disordered individual might say something like, well that figure is like,

Robert (44:26)
benign type, yeah.

Peter Salerno (44:41)
they didn't see you, that's why you close the deal. Or you definitely sound much younger or more attractive or nicer when you're over the phone. And all of a sudden, it feels like a physical blow. It's like, where did that come from? So you hear the inflection in my voice? So they take that inflection, which is a defense because you just got, you know, socked, and they go, whoa, why are you yelling at me?

please don't talk to me that way. I thought we agreed not to talk that way to each other. Or, you you know that I don't like it when people yell at me. That's what my... Yes. And so here's where they hope that you start to spin. Because they know how to push your buttons and they know you better than you know yourself in that sense. And so if you're not ready for that and you can't just kind of like take a breath and like...

Robert (45:15)
I was just trying to compliment you.

Peter Salerno (45:36)
you know, kind of step outside of the situation and observe and like laugh it off or walk away, then it escalates to you maybe defending yourself where you're yelling. That's what they accuse you, that's when they start to accuse you of abusing them. And they will go and tell everyone that you know and that they know, he came home from work and just started screaming at me, berating me. I have no idea what happened. It's crazy making. So these are tactics that are part of

Robert (46:01)
Yeah, it is.

Peter Salerno (46:06)
the abnormal functioning of their brain, I mean, how they perceive reality. This is how they think they get things done. And it's not... it's so globally, universally similar in these individuals that we refer to as narcissistic, that in order to pin that on one certain type of parenting flaw or rupture or style, you can't. There's no prediction there. It's impossible.

Robert (46:32)
Okay.

Peter Salerno (46:36)
So there has to be something else involved is the point.

Robert (46:38)
Yeah, yeah, no, makes sense. Makes a lot of sense. So let me ask you this. So narcissism is not learned. And it's not a self esteem issue. You've said that, huh?

Peter Salerno (46:49)
well, no, it can be learned. It's just, there's, there's... We have to, we have to differentiate between what was already there that's amplified and what was, and what's a learned behavior. you can condition somebody to feel a certain way or believe a certain thing about anything, not just narcissism. and it can become pretty fixed over time. The difference is, if that starting material is not narcissistic in nature, you can unlearn.

Robert (46:52)
Okay.

Peter Salerno (47:19)
what you've been conditioned to learn. It's much more stable in the sense of fixed and static when somebody has already been predisposed to be a certain way. Does that make sense? So I would be ridiculous to say that parenting doesn't influence children and that you can't make someone believe something about themselves that's either true or untrue, but how they make meaning out of that and how they grasp onto it...

Robert (47:34)
Yeah, it actually does. Yeah.

Peter Salerno (47:49)
and what they choose to do with it has a lot to do with the genetic traits. But yeah, you can teach somebody to be narcissistic for sure.

Robert (47:55)
you

What about self -esteem?

Peter Salerno (48:00)
So according to research that I have stumbled upon, there is an extremely weak correlation.

Robert (48:07)
And let me just say this. I love the way, I love the way you start everything or just about everything according to the research. It's not, you know, this is the way it is. It's not, you know, it's always according to the research. mean, my point of that being everything you say is very well backed up. You're just not coming up with this just to come up with it. It's, it's not, you know, I mean, it is that it's backed up by evidence.

Peter Salerno (48:34)
Yeah. Well, and the reality is, I would be very embarrassed if I couldn't back up claims with research. Like, if I was creating this in the laboratory of my mind, and then someone says, show me, and I go, well, it's just because I said so. I mean, to me, that would be humiliating. I don't, you know, commit to something unless I've read it. But yes, there's a very weak, some research has shown that there is a very weak.

relationship between self -esteem and narcissism that they are just... they're involved in completely separate core belief systems. And so they're not... they don't... one doesn't cause the other and they're not significantly related enough to even be a thing. So that's kind of why I put that part in my book is you may have heard that narcissism is the result of like low self -esteem or that narcissists suffer from this.

And what the new research is showing is that there is a very little, very insignificant relationship between the two. They're very weakly related.

Robert (49:40)
So it's not a mask for their low self -esteem.

Peter Salerno (49:46)
It's not, no. It is a mask, but it's not a mask for low self -esteem. Now, fragile self -esteem is another story because there really isn't an actual identifiable self underneath all the facade of the image management and the impression management. If you point out a flaw in their character or you provide evidence that they aren't who they say they are, they can destabilize them, certainly, and so they can appear vulnerable.

Robert (49:48)
Right. Interesting.

Peter Salerno (50:14)
But it's not because they are insecure, it's because they've been outed. They've been humiliated or they've been exposed and they don't like that because they're no longer in control of managing their image. But it's not because you wounded them.

Robert (50:29)
Yeah, that makes sense. And then if you do expose them or out them, then all hell breaks loose.

Peter Salerno (50:35)
Yeah, and they also play the victim. So they come to therapy after they've been exposed and they say, my god, you're not gonna believe what happened to me. I feel very depressed. I feel so stressed. And then the therapist, assuming collaboration, thinks that that's their baseline level of functioning all day every day, when in reality they're just not getting what they want in the moment and so they're a bit deflated. That's gonna go over most people's head though.

because they're just gonna assume, why would somebody come and pay for therapy if they're not gonna tell me the truth? Well, it's because narcissists don't tell, they can't tell the truth. So you gotta assume that they're lying.

Robert (51:12)
Well, why is that? It seems like it seems like sometimes they'll just lie just to lie.

Peter Salerno (51:17)
They do lie just to lie because...

It's something that kind of starts off as conscious and deliberate and then becomes so pervasive that it becomes automatic and habitual. they think that lying is what is required in order to stay where they are. It's sort of like a self -preservation, even when it's not necessary. And they lie about mundane, trivial things too, because they can.

Robert (51:42)
Yeah.

Peter Salerno (51:45)
And it's pathological, so at some point it becomes just... it's just part of who they are. And then they'll even sometimes say, I don't even know why I lied about that.

Robert (51:54)
Do they realize they're lying? And I'm sorry to ask maybe some stupid questions on that, but do they? They do. But that's just life. It's just like breathing.

Peter Salerno (51:58)
Yeah, they know. They know what it is. Yeah, it's just the way it is. It's only a problem if you call them on it. It's not a problem morally to them, or ethically, or inherently. They don't see it as problematic until it's challenged.

Robert (52:15)
just so messed up. you know, for those in a, for those that are in a, relationship with someone or been in a relationship with someone that's narcissistic, that's a narcissist, so lonely.

Peter Salerno (52:29)
Yeah, yeah, it's isolating.

Robert (52:33)
So tell me this, I know our time's coming to an end. What else do you want people to get out of your book?

Peter Salerno (52:38)
Well, I want people to know that it doesn't always take two to create pathology or disorder or dysfunction in a relationship. Sometimes you can be a very willing, cooperative, collaborative, agreeable person who's just trying to connect and somebody can absolutely exploit that. And you're not responsible for their pathology, no matter how many therapists have previously told you that you're codependent or you have an insecure attachment. Sometimes you're just a victim of somebody who's

got bad intentions. I think what's most important is that keep an open mind that maybe we don't know everything that we think we know or that we need to know yet, and this is some cutting -edge research that's only going to benefit and further this discussion. It doesn't have to be concrete. doesn't have to be... it's not going to be the last edition of my book because I'm going to be learning new things, you know, tomorrow.

Robert (53:30)
Great.

Peter Salerno (53:32)
use it as an opportunity to make sense of some things that up to this point have not really made much sense. And then also, there's just a lot of opinions that are circulating that aren't based on any real fact or empirical data. And so I kind of just wanted to separate the fact from the fiction so that people can make more sense of what they're going through and get the help they need. And hopefully...

Hopefully one day, maybe some people who are narcissistic will go and get the help that they can get so that they can actually, you know, change a little bit because that would be nice if everybody ever...

Robert (54:17)
Yeah, it would be, but the chance of that's slim.

Peter Salerno (54:21)
Well, what's funny is everyone's, it's like a lot of people are in therapy because of the person who's not there. So it would be nice if they showed up and actually took some accountability, but you know.

Robert (54:27)
Bye.

Well, doctor, you're on a mission and I want you to keep going, which I'm so happy to hear. This isn't going to be your last book that you're going to continue. There'll be a part two, hopefully three, four, and I hope that is kind of your why. And, I love it. I love it.

How can people find you, find your book? I'm ordering it when we get off, when we finish this, I'm ordering it. I'm embarrassed to say I have not read it yet. But even just from reading the reviews, I can't wait to dig into it. But how can people find it?

Peter Salerno (54:54)
Mm -hmm.

That's okay. Just came out.

Yeah, it's this book and also my other books are all on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Audible. There's an Audible version, an audio version of it for iTunes and Audible. And you can find me on Instagram.

Is it at Dr. Peter Salerno? I don't know. I have a YouTube channel at Dr. Peter Salerno and then I have a website drpetersalerno .com

Robert (55:19)
I think that's it. I think that's it.

And I will certainly post links for for everything with the book and then also for your sites as well and I'm sure you have a link tree or something like that on your side or at least a link to a website where they can go on there in order also Peter thank you. Dr. Salerno Thank you for coming on I really appreciate it and I love what you're doing a man it resonates with so many people and just you know keep on

Peter Salerno (55:34)
Thank you.

Mm

Yeah.

Absolutely. Thanks.

Robert (55:54)
keep on that track and I'm so happy you just didn't accept and you're really turning things over and exposing things.

Peter Salerno (56:04)
I appreciate that very much. Thank you.

Robert (56:05)
So keep it up. Hey, and look, thank you all for listening to the Dad to Dad's podcast. And you can find us on most podcasts platforms as well as on YouTube and Instagram. Don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button as well as leave a comment. I read every comment. I really enjoy receiving the feedback and look, thank you all again. And until next time.