Betrayal, The Impact of Infidelity and the Road Forward - Interview with Dr. Jeanne Michele

In this episode of the Dad to Dads podcast, Robert engages with relationship specialist Dr. Jeanne Michele to explore the complex topic of infidelity. They discuss the prevalence of infidelity in society, the various forms it can take, and the emotional impact it has on both partners. Dr. Michele emphasizes the importance of communication, self-reflection, and setting boundaries in relationships. The conversation also delves into the differences in how men and women experience betrayal, the role of masculinity, and the potential for healing and rebuilding trust after infidelity. Dr. Michele shares insights from her book, 'The Infidelity Cure,' which offers guidance for those affected by infidelity, including the affair partner. The episode concludes with a discussion on the influence of ancestral patterns on behavior and the importance of seeking professional help to navigate these challenges.

Takeaways

• Infidelity is a prevalent issue, with 70% of Americans engaging in some form of it.
• The definition of infidelity can vary between couples and includes emotional and physical betrayals.
• Social dynamics, including workplace interactions and social media, contribute to the rise of infidelity.
• Recognizing early warning signs of infidelity can help prevent deeper issues.
• Infidelity can serve as a wake-up call for couples to address underlying relationship problems.
• Men often struggle more with the physical aspect of infidelity than women do.
• The emotional connection is often more painful for women than the physical aspect of infidelity.
• Setting clear boundaries in relationships is crucial to prevent infidelity.
• Self-reflection is important for understanding the motivations behind infidelity.
• Healing from infidelity requires commitment and effort from both partners.

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Transcript

Robert (00:00)
Hey everyone and welcome back to the Dad to Dads podcast. So infidelity, I was reading a survey the other day and it says something like 70 % of all Americans engage in some form of an extramarital affair. 70%. Also according to the Kinsey Institute, 19 % of men and 13 % of women.

have admitted to being unfaithful sexually in their marriage. And also another stat, I thought that was staggering, is that the infidelity rate for women has increased 40 % over the last 20 years. So since cheating and being unfaithful is so prevalent in society today,

thought it would only make sense to bring on an expert, Dr. Jeanne Michele. Dr. Michele, welcome.

Jeanne (01:01)
Well, it's good to be here Robert. Thank you so much for having me

Robert (01:04)
Is I don't think I did it correctly. I think I told said you're I don't want it to be like you're a cheating expert. That doesn't sound or infidelity expert. That doesn't sound very good there. But so how would you what would you say you are? You're not a cheating expert.

Jeanne (01:21)
Well, so a couple of things. First, I call myself a relationship specialist. So I really help people with their relationship. And I'm particularly well versed in dealing with crises like infidelity. And I really, I think the language we use is very important. So I try really hard not to use the word cheating. know, cheating we associate with, you you get an F on a test, you're not quite, cheating is really a failure. Now,

Robert (01:27)
Okay.

Jeanne (01:50)
I'm not saying that woohoo infidelity isn't, but I think we tend to demonize with the word cheating. So I like to use the word affair, betrayal, betrayal partner, because I think that neutralizes a little bit of the judgment. People love to judge, know, and labeling someone as a cheater is a big label and a big judgment you put on someone. So long answer to your short question.

Robert (02:18)
No, that's helpful. That's very helpful. Those, those stats that I read out, that's staggering. And then another, I read it was something like women between the ages of 18 and 29 are more likely to cheat than men. But then once, once you hit 30, it looks like men start picking it up, especially over 60, then it's

you know, definitely mostly men that are doing all the cheating, but it seems like it's so prevalent today in six in society more so than before. And that with the women, before we get into what does infidelity look like and everything else that with the women, why do you think that's increasing?

Jeanne (03:05)
Well, I think a couple of reasons. think first of all, over time there are many more women in the workplace. there are many more women have become more assertive over time. And I think that's a piece of it. There's more exposure right now. There's more, you know, people are working. Women have more financial resources. They're going out more. So what used to be, you know, men worked and women stayed home, there were less opportunities. And now there's an equal amount of opportunities for both gender.

I think that's a piece of it for sure. And I think women have come into their own empowerment. And I think a lot of times dynamics in the workplace in particular contribute to infidelity. And so I think that those definitely are contributing factors. I think society has shifted a bit from the old patriarchal model of men at home and, I mean, women at home and men at work. Now we've got both.

So I think that's a big part.

Robert (04:05)
Yeah, that's interesting. What about social media? Do think that's played a big role?

Jeanne (04:07)
my goodness. Social media has played a big role in both. I think it is so easy to access. And I would say probably that social media or connect, let's say connecting online is a little more prevalent for men, for men going in and having like the chats and connecting with a site in particular.

where there's visual images and things like that that end up being an online affair. And I think for women, it's more the regular social media like the Instagram and the Facebook because someone sees you and likes you and notices you and you start a dialogue. So I think it's just a little bit different maybe. But as I say anything, we can generalize and the specifics of each individual can be vastly different from the generalization.

Robert (05:03)
Okay, that makes sense. So when I talked earlier about 70 % with infidelity, that does not mean sexual. I mean, that can be emotional, that can be a lot of things. So would you define infidelity? What is infidelity? What does it look like?

Jeanne (05:08)
Mm-hmm.

It's a betrayal, for me, my definition of infidelity, it's a betrayal of a commitment you have made to your partner. And those betrayals can range. If you've said, for example, I agree, your spouse has a problem with viewing pornography. And you agree, I'm not going to do that, and it's an agreement the two of you make. And then you start looking at pornography and she finds it on your computer.

That's a form of betrayal. We can call that because you're betraying the commitment. So it's really about the agreements made between two people, whatever those are, and when someone goes outside of that. So there is a wide range of what you can call infidelity, from connecting with someone online, to looking at pornography, to actually engaging in sexual activity. Some people it's kissing, some people it has to be sexual penetration. It depends on the couple.

Robert (06:23)
be flirting. could be, I that's a good way to put it depends on depends on the couple because some people might be okay with flirting. Some couples might not be. So that makes sense. Well, I love the betrayal, the betrayal of trust. I am not a jealous person.

Jeanne (06:32)
So what do you think, Robert? What are your thoughts on that? When you think about infidelity and...

everything.

Mm-hmm.

Robert (06:49)
But I think if you see, you know, if my partner...

if you see it more than it, than it just naturally, than just their natural conversation or just their natural actions. Yes. I think that could be considered, being unfaithful or on the verge of being unfaithful. You know, I was, and it's great you asked that I was watching something, whether you like him or not, something on,

Jeanne (07:13)
I think

Robert (07:19)
Jordan Peterson was speaking and he was talking about cheating and you know, the different sexes cheating and relationships and how you should handle that. And he was talking about at the very onset of it, like when you see these little micro cheating, whether it's the flirting, whether it's the rubbing of somebody else's arm or when you've sensed that, that yes, that you should bring it up at that point that it might not be

It might cause a fight. might cause an argument, but as long as you're doing that, it is preventing a huge argument and probably a more costly one down the road. What, what do you think about that?

Jeanne (08:02)
I would agree with Jordan on that. And I would say, I would add, when you are an individual and you start noticing someone other than your partner becoming a go-to person, either for a little affection, if you something fun happening or exciting, you want to share it with that other person. For women, you find yourself dressing more. When you know that person's going to be in, you're making sure your hair is done and you're like, I'm going to see so and so. You find that you're starting to get those little tingly feelings.

to really take a step back, really think about what's going on, and it is a sign that you need to talk to your partner. And as Jordan said, it is much easier, or I'll say maybe say it a little differently, to talk then, even though it creates challenges. Nobody wants to say there's something going on. But I tell you, it's far worse once you're caught in an affair and having those conversations. But it could be as simple as, hey, I'm feeling a little

disconnector right now or I'm noticing that I'm noticing other people right now. I think we need to sit down and you know plan a date night. It doesn't have to be this big huge thing but the earlier you catch it the easier it is to engage in something to help repair something that could slide downhill very easily.

Robert (09:23)
Yeah, or that made me feel uncomfortable when you were, I felt you were being a little over flirtatious when you were talking to Jim that way or something like that. You know, another thing is I feel when somebody is having to hide their actions, whether it's a text, you know, DMs, emails, conversations, you know, going to lunch with somebody, if they feel they're having to hide it,

then yeah, feel personally, I feel that's a form of it because there's a reason in their mind why they're hiding.

Jeanne (09:59)
And you know that being said some people are in very toxic relationships and they're afraid to talk to their partner so there's something even deeper to deal with but but it's interesting how when you talked about you talked about being the person who observed their partner engaging with someone else and I was talking about if you are that partner that finds yourself engaging with someone else so there's conversations on both sides if you notice

someone, your partner, or if you find yourself kind of leaning over the other way or hiding a conversation or texting someone on your phone and your spouse or your partner comes up to you you're like, we're talking to nothing. You've got to pay attention to those warning signs on both sides.

Robert (10:45)
Yeah. And that's a respect thing too. I think if you're, if you're connected and you communicate with them, you know, what's respectful to your spouse, your partner, whoever it may be. And, know, am I in the right? Am I in the wrong? Is, is this conversation going in the right or, know, going in the wrong direction, and just kind of checking in, you know, and, it's also, I think self-awareness, right? Being in that situation to where,

you're out with a bunch of colleagues having drinks and all of sudden it's you and one of the, you know, one of the other colleagues and of the opposite sex or whatever sex you're attracted to. And you're the last two there. Probably not a good situation to be in. You know, I probably should be calling for the check and, and leaving and just preventing yourself from putting your, know, from putting yourself in those situations as well. So I want to ask you something.

Jeanne (11:38)
Excellent.

Robert (11:42)
So you do a lot of help with couples

Can somebody that's been cheated on, can they really move forward in a relationship with that person that cheated on them? I'm sorry, I shouldn't say cheated, but infidelity. Sorry.

Jeanne (11:54)
So I'd love to ask you some thoughts. Yeah, there you go. Uh-huh. So before I go into that, I'd love to know what your initial impressions are. When you throw that question out there, what do you think? What are your thoughts?

Robert (12:09)
Can it? Yes. Would it be hell? think yes.

I've seen people stick together where there's been affairs, where there's been infidelity, and they're doing it, and it is just like, just two people. I don't even know if you'd say partners, friends in the house, they're doing it for their kids.

So I don't think I would consider that successful. do I think it can be done? Yeah, but I think it would take a tremendous, tremendous amount of work and love. And when I say that I'm talking about where you don't have somebody that's codependent and unwilling to detach from the person that cheated on them

you've seen these relationships where, I can't live my life without Susan. I can't live my life without Jim. And they just get walked over. I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about where it's a...

you know, there's some self confidence in each partner. I think it would be extremely tough to move forward.

Jeanne (13:22)
It is, it is very tough and it's one thing that's very difficult to move forward on your own.

You know, and one of the reasons I wrote the book is to help because we make all kinds of assumptions about the causes of infidelity and how you move forward. So what can happen is that infidelity can be a wake-up call. You know, you were hope, as we said earlier, that you catch something that's starting to slide sideways much earlier. And when you don't and you connect with somebody else, you have to look in the mirror and face yourself.

what do i want? know? do i really love my

Let's say spouse, can be spouse or relational partner. Let's just say spouse. Do I really love my spouse? Did we go sideways? What has been going on? We have to look at the marriage prior to the infidelity and say, what were the vulnerability factors? Were we not talking? Was life on autopilot? Did we just start arguing about the little things? What slid in our relationship? And do we want to move forward?

It's hard, but the degree of desire to reconnect and make it work has a huge influence on the success of moving forward.

And no matter what, infidelity is an opportunity to work on yourself and to work on your relationship. Because life is busy. There's things we ignore. We get into patterns. And it's like you get hit over the head with a two by four and it's like, my God, I need to wake up and take charge of my life.

you know, and what does that look like and do I want to, do we want to do this together? Couples can become stronger as they work through whatever crisis shows up for them, including infidelity, but it takes work, takes commitment, and it takes having the clarity to know that this is something that you really want to do. So what does that sound like to you?

Robert (15:33)
think building that trust back would be extremely tough.

Jeanne (15:37)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It is...

Robert (15:39)
extremely tough and you know, I let me ask you this. So coming from a male's point of view and just different ones that I know have either gone through it potentially or going through it. It seems to me and now granted this is a very small set compared to what you've seen very small sample group that men if they feel like

Jeanne (15:59)
you

Robert (16:05)
They're the ones being betrayed if they feel there's some infidelity going on by their partner.

that a lot of times they'll turn a blind eye to it and almost, I don't want to know and I don't care if she admits it ever, I'm not going to ask. I just want to get through this point and let's move forward. Is that more, do you see that more in males versus females or is that across the board or what?

Jeanne (16:36)
So I will say that men, generally speaking, have a much tougher time when their spouse betrays than women do. Now the heartache is the same. I'm not saying that men hurt more, women hurt more, but because of how we're structured in society, there's almost a little bit more of a, you know.

we see male infidelity as being something that is more prevalent. It's almost like because men are supposed to be the strong ones. And again, I think that sometimes we as women confuse men. We want you strong, we want you to go shopping with us, we want you to be a shoulder. But I think if you look back to the male-female dynamic, men are the protectors. They're the strong ones. And I think that betrayal,

runs much deeper and is much more difficult to work through. So regard to what you're saying, there can be a propensity to not want to know, okay? More so for men. And I would say if that is the case, you know, and you're a guy going through this,

Do you need, I don't think anyone should ask a question if they're not prepared to hear the answer. If you really feel you don't wanna know, sometimes you see and hear things that you cannot erase. So if that's where you are.

I think the first thing is to have a conversation with your spouse and say, you know, I feel we haven't been connecting as much. I feel like we're distancing a little bit. What can we do to work on our relationship? What do you need from me? Let's just have some talks. Let's go talk to somebody and approach it first that way and see if there can be a reconnection, okay?

And the challenge is if it continues and her head is really turned somewhere else, it can be difficult to move forward. Because when you're attracted and engaged with, you know...

especially emotionally, but physically as well, with someone else, it's difficult to put your attention on your partner. But if your partner starts showing up differently, it can cause you to look at this other relationship and say, what the hell am I doing? So it can have an effect. But if it keeps going, then it probably warrants more conversation. What does that sound like for you as you think about the people that you've had experience with and you know are

Robert (19:06)
No, that makes sense. So for men, more, it's kind of a self preservation when they're don't want to go there and almost don't want to acknowledge it. It's more of a self preservation kind of protective.

Jeanne (19:19)
Yeah, I think so for sure. For sure. But you have to figure out how to talk about what's going on or that you notice something if you want to connect with your partner. I mean, there's a lot of times that people live two separate lives and live together. That's the kind of marriage you want. But it really isn't a marriage that thrives.

Robert (19:20)
type stance for them. Is that correct?

because I'm thinking of one instance right now and his stance is more of we'll get past this and kind of a hope and pray that it doesn't happen in the future.

Jeanne (19:51)
Mm-hmm.

Robert (19:52)
But if it's not addressed, more than likely it will happen again in the future, correct? Don't you believe that or not?

Jeanne (20:00)
100%. I think when people don't, when there is recidivism, when there is a repeat engagement, it almost always results from not having thoroughly worked from the first time. If you don't thoroughly work on

making your commitments, honoring one another, talk about respect, talk about love, talk about what you want. The opportunity to slide again is much greater. I mean, it's hard work to work through infidelity, but when people engage in the work and really look at themselves and what they want in relationship, the opportunity for this to happen again decreases. If you're not working on it, yeah, it's easy to slide.

Robert (20:43)
So I can see somebody coming to you and saying, look, my spouse had an affair and I want to do whatever I can. I want to get over this. I want to move forward. I've got to rebuild trust in him, her, whoever it may be. I'm utterly destroyed. have no self-confidence. I can see that them coming to you.

the person who is guilty of it, who has had an affair.

Do you have those people come to you and what do they say? Like, whoops, I had one too many drinks or I don't know what happened or I feel guilty or what is that conversation? Cause I just.

Jeanne (21:30)
You know what? can't... Go ahead.

Robert (21:30)
I don't...

No, I just, I just, I'm just curious because you know, they're the ones guilty of it. do they, I mean, I, I'm sure they admit, you know, they admit that they were guilty of it. Is there remorse? Is there what, and then how do you instruct them going forward? Does that make sense? What I'm asking?

Jeanne (21:47)
So.

So what I, what yeah, absolutely, and I will absolutely answer that question, but what I get about you is it seems like the idea of infidelity in affairs so far out of the realm of you and how you, what you would, you can't even picture yourself at all having that happen to you or being the one that does that. That's what I'm getting by talking to you. Now that could be an incorrect assumption, which speaks a lot to the level of.

Robert (22:16)
Well, it's just putting you know, I think a lot of it is about respect right? I think a lot of it is about respect for your partner

Jeanne (22:19)
Yeah.

self-respect.

Robert (22:25)
And self, yeah, and self respect.

Jeanne (22:27)
I want to get to both questions. I have a chart in my book that talks about affair vulnerability factors. There's internal and external factors that make you more vulnerable to an affair. Now that doesn't abdicate responsibility because you engage with somebody else that has a betrayal against your commitment and you need to take responsibility and own that. But I want to go back to your first question.

Robert (22:50)
Jeannie, let me say this too, because I was just thinking about what you said. I am not

Jeanne (22:54)
I'm picking up my book.

Robert (22:55)
I am not excusing somebody that has had an affair, but I have known people that have. I know one very well who went through a very verbally emotional relationship. she could not do anything right. She could not, she was horrible at this. She was horrible at that. She, you know, the goalposts were always moving.

Jeanne (22:59)
Mm-hmm.

Robert (23:26)
And I, she told me she went outside of the marriage for comfort.

And, you know, part of me could kind of understand that, you know, doing that. And so I'm not saying, Hey, if you're doing it, you should be tarred and feathered and everything else. I'm not, I'm not saying that. So don't get me wrong because I had never looked at it that way until talking with her and really getting there and then like, gosh, I kind of understand that, you know, you had everything on you and, and, you know, she had some of the financial, you know, responsibilities. had one.

thousand percent of the household responsibilities, the children's responsibilities. And then, you know, when he wasn't playing golf or on work trips or boys trips, you know, he was home and just paid her absolutely no attention. And so I got where she was coming from. So does that help?

Jeanne (24:25)
And those relations, yeah, talking about your friend, those relationships are hard to leave, you know? And I find that women generally speaking are seeking some kind of comfort.

Robert (24:32)
Yeah.

Jeanne (24:38)
You know, what you're describing about your friend, it's very common in female infidelity. There's somebody else that's comforting. A lot of times the dynamic is, and not always, but the guy is a personal trainer, he's a boss, he's someone you meet at work that you look to, and he's got a present, he respects you, and he treats you really well, and you so don't have that at home, or you've lost those elements, and it's so, it just,

We want to feel good and it feels good to feel good.

Sometimes it's really an emotional thing that can turn sexual. You're kind of attracted to somebody and you go out and have a drink. Alcohol intensifies everything and someone kisses you and you feel that spark and then they're kind to you. And again, it doesn't justify it. What it's saying in this particular case and in cases like these is there's really something very important that is going on that you're not addressing or that you're afraid to address or that you have little kids and you don't want to

address, you get into arguments all the time and you're stuck. I hope people like that reach for a professional to just say I need to clear my head, I need to gain some clarity, I need someone to talk to because it helps you get clear on what you want. An affair is a symptom, know, and it can be like an addiction, takes on a life of its own, an affair that continues over time, you know.

Robert (26:03)
Yeah.

Jeanne (26:10)
Addiction is something that you shouldn't be doing but you're having trouble stopping. That can occur too. So I want to go back to another question too about the people who show up in my office that are the ones who have betrayed. So I'll go to male infidelity for just a moment and I have many men that knocked on my door and that was the precursor for me writing the book. They are men that have been caught in an affair.

Robert (26:11)
Makes sense.

That makes sense.

Jeanne (26:38)
They're like and and I have had more than one or two or three Sit on my couch and say I don't know what the hell I was thinking. I love my wife. I want to make it work and and the remorse is huge and the shame is huge and The confusion is huge now. Now you may say and had someone else say to me well

That sounds like an excuse. Tell me he didn't know what he was doing when he went and engaged with an affair with somebody else. But I think like any addiction when you're in the middle of it, it's tougher to see. But when you're out of it, when you've been caught, it's like a wake up call. What do I want? And then they're looking at it differently and then they have to go back and look at what was going on. What was going on in their marriage? What went on when they were kids? I there's so many factors that contribute to

Going someplace else and getting validation or whatever your your particular situation is that you're getting and a lot of times it's validation It's like wow. I love the way you did that project or wow, Someone for in male infidelities looking to you as a hero, know Really looking up to you and then you know your spouse is busy with the kids making dinner or whatever your situation is You're not feeling that and you're starting to get

that those you know that connection someplace else so in answer to your question huge

Robert (28:04)
Sounds like a lack of validation. Yeah, it does. It sounds like a lack of validation on both ends. A lot like whether it's the male or the female that's that's guilty or responsible for that affair. Because I think you had mentioned that on the female end to the lack of validation. That's interesting. You know, I also wonder too with guys. And again, I am not excusing it.

Jeanne (28:11)
Mm-hmm.

And when you

Robert (28:30)
But I wonder too with guys, did they not see the red flags coming too? Like did they not see, well, know, responding to this colleague's texts late at night and getting a little flirtatious, that was a red flag. I I feel like guys are a little bit.

were pretty simple and kind of, you I don't want to say dumb, but oblivious to some things, you know, did they not see the red flags of, Hey, did you not see where this was potentially leading? You know, I wonder if that's part of it as well.

Jeanne (29:04)
Well, I think that, you know, like when women see other women flirting with the guy, we're like, yeah, that's flirting. And the guy's like, she was just being nice to me. So I do think there can be a difference right at that point. Does that make sense? Yeah. And you know, she's just.

Robert (29:14)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it does because I've had somebody tell me that before and say, did you not realize how she was flirting with you? And I'm like, she wasn't flirting with me. Yes, she was. No, she wasn't. She was just talking to me about such, such, yeah, but she was flirting, you know, and just totally passed it off of, know, maybe she's a little bit jealous or something like that. But I do think, I do think, and again, I'm not excusing, I do think guys are a little bit oblivious.

Y'all are more in tune to what's going on than we are. Yeah.

Jeanne (29:50)
pay more attention to. Absolutely. And there's another factor is that she needs something from me. you know what I'm having trouble with blah blah blah or I've got I've got a I've got I'm having trouble with my boss or even I'm having trouble with my boyfriend. Sometimes it's you know when they're commune when people are communicating in a way where you're feeling needed as a guy.

Men want to fix things, generally speaking, and so there can be an underlying dynamic that you don't notice until it starts to get closer and closer and something happens.

But a key factor is knowing again the whole idea of hiding that you mentioned earlier. I'm sending this text back to Susie at work and you know my wife comes up and says, what are you doing? know when you find yourself beginning to slip and starting to hide it because you know that you think that it might create a disturbance at home, pay attention to those times too. Because sometimes you may be a little bit oblivious but there's a part of you that's like, yeah should I be doing this?

Robert (30:57)
So red flags would be not sharing password on your phone, maybe secret apps, communication apps, those type things.

Jeanne (31:02)
I found, yeah. People just, when someone has an inkling, especially a woman, that there is something going on, man, she can discover everything. You think things are private? I will tell you. When a woman in particular is on a mission, nothing is, you know, nothing is private.

And I find men are more inclined when they suspect to hire private investigators. Again, generally speaking, the distinction between male and female, because they want to be able to have the evidence before they confront. And a woman is more than likely looking it up and trying to figure it out on their own. So again, just a little bit of distinction there.

Robert (31:44)
her and all her friends doing Google searches or searching through, doing the social media sleuthing. Yeah, doing the social media sleuthing and seeing. So yeah, that makes sense. I think you're very accurate with that.

Jeanne (31:48)
Suzie? Right.

Robert (31:59)
So a couple comes in and I don't want to give away your book or anything like that, but a couple comes in and one of the partners, has had an affair. Can you just kind of give an overview of how you help them or what you address first and how, how you work with them, you know, to get to hopefully a successful marriage down the road and

move, accept this and then move past this.

Jeanne (32:31)
So in an ideal world, I see them both individually first. Because in an individual session, you can just throw up all over my office. You can say anything you want. It's important that I establish a connection with you individually. That's the first thing. And sometimes it might be two sessions. But then after that, the tough part is we're coming in and talking about it.

You know, there are certain things that sometimes a partner wants to know everything. I want to know where, when, how, what you did, when you did it. And you know, and I have to, what I do in that situation is slow it down a little bit. Because again, it's the whole idea of be careful.

what you talk about and I really discourage partners from talking about what they engaged in sexually because certain images and ideas are difficult to get out of your head and both women and men ruminate but women can go down the road and make up a story you know you're on a first date and already you're thinking about your wedding dress and a guy's five dates in and wondering if they're gonna you know be in a relationship.

different differences in how.

Robert (33:47)
Does it help when people are wanting to know every single fact? Does that help the person or not?

Jeanne (33:57)
we have to go into the whys of that. What is this? I encourage them to slow down.

We have to go into what do you what okay? What's why do you need to know that what what's going on? What's your what's your purpose in that so we slow it down? Because there you know again sometimes at the beginning It's everything and I can't move forward unless I know everything well What does the everything look like and what do you get from that? I don't think it is helpful to like I said no particularly sexually oriented things I have people that have seen videos of their spouse. I mean you just cannot erase those pictures. It's much harder

harder to move forward when you have too much information. But what I do also is I have them each make a commitment that moving forward while we are doing this work

You know, baseline is we talk about how to make sure that communication is cut off entirely from the affair partner. You cannot, you know, what does that look like if you work together? You know, how do you maintain distance? Ideally, you're not in the same department. If they are your employee, you've got to make a change. There are things that you need to do to ensure that you aren't staying in connection with that person. So there's some basics.

things that are important.

then we talk about, know, a spouse will say, I want to know this, I want to know that. And the person's like, I just want to get over it, it's behind me, I've forgotten about it. It's like, well, unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. There are some things that we need to talk about, and we need to work through, even if they're uncomfortable. And through the process of the conversation, it, you know, I usually do 90 minute sessions with couples, because I find that you really need that time. Through the process of the conversation, it can start out heated, but the goal is by the time they walk out of

the room.

There's been some peace, some comfort that comes from recommitment, remorse, know, forgiveness, whatever occurs in that little window. And I tell people when you go out of the office, try your best not to talk about this. And I know it's difficult. Talk about it lightly. We do the heavy lifting in the office because infidelity is very hard. Things flare very quickly and you do damage if you,

You're always in that space of being angry when you're talking about it. Did I answer your question? Did that help? you have more?

Robert (36:25)
Yeah, you did. And when you're telling me that, I'm just thinking it's got to be such a long process. I mean, I know it's case by case, but it's probably such a long process to move forward too, because when you're talking about the anger and I can just imagine, even though I'm sure you're absolutely wonderful at what you do, but even after the first 90 minutes together in there, everything is probably not great, but on a

in a better position when they leave there. But then they get back, they're in the kitchen, they're passing each other in the house and the thoughts start coming back into their mind and boom, at the other person again. And I can't believe you slept with her.

Jeanne (37:06)
Are they here?

Absolutely. I'm not saying that they're successful and not talking about it outside the session because it's but I continue to remind them, you know, but yes, it is hard. You hear a song, you see a movie, someone says the word cheating, some public figure gets caught. I mean, there's so many little triggers that occur and then we talk about it. We talk about what was triggered, you know. There's a lot of apologizing and you know, when I talk about the difference, I'm saying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, can we get over this? And holding someone

hand and looking at the eye in the eyes and say I am so so sorry I've betrayed your trust it's not the person I want to be I love you and I am working very diligently to make sure that you know you can believe in me again I know it's going to take time but honey I love you you know how you do that the repair process and the rebuilding of trust it's each little moment and it's also trying it's also not lying

about the little things, you know, like, have you talked to her? So many times an agreement is made, please let me know if she or he reaches out to you. And it's like, I will, I promise. Well, that person reaches out and sends a text and just said, hey, I just want to see how you're doing. Are you doing okay? No one wants to share that.

because you know it's going to trigger. But when you do share it, it helps in the trust rebuilding process because it's saying, I can trust you. I am primary. You're not keeping a secret from me over here on your phone, you know, and those are hard conversations, but those are the things that rebuild trust. even things like I'm going to be home, you know, for dinner or I'm going to meet you at seven and you know you can't because you're running really late at work.

busy day you're not sure if you can be home by that time but you say it because in the moment you want things to be okay and then you're not home by 7. Sounds very simple but again it's like can I trust you? You know we really talk about a commitment and an I'll try. I'll try okay if you're gonna try I need to adjust my expectations that you may not meet it but if you commit

Robert (39:11)
Yeah.

Jeanne (39:22)
Do not commit unless you really are sure you're going to follow through. Those little things that seemingly have nothing to do with the infidelity help rebuild the trust.

Robert (39:33)
I mean, so it takes 100 % on each partner's end. It can't be a wife or a husband dragging the other spouse in and saying, hey, we want to work on our marriage and the other one's 25 % engaged. I mean, they've got to be just as engaged, just as dedicated to it for there to be success, correct?

Jeanne (39:54)
Here's the to that. Yes, here's the caveat. The caveat is if one person says, I'm not sure.

then the work is let's sit down and talk and gain the clarity we need to decide if you're sure. Because if you're not sure, this isn't going to work. But we can do a few sessions to see what you want and explore what was going on before the infidelity and have you decide. you cannot really make it work, as you said, if you're not, you gotta be all in. But it might take a little bit to be all in. And the one who has been betrayed may say, you know what, I don't know if I can trust you

I don't know if I can ever forgive you. I don't know if I can ever trust anyone again. All right Let's work on that and let's see it doesn't mean that when you walk in the first that everyone's 100 % ago Especially the one who's been betrayed, but they need to have their voice a lot of times particularly It's different for men and women women

Sometimes they suppress things that they want to talk about. They're taking care of the kids. They're not really addressing things also. Men might avoid conversations because they don't want to disrupt the flow, but women tend to, again, generally speaking, kind of swallow their voice. It's like, where have you been silent? You're the one that's been betrayed, but where have you not been talking about what's important to you? That's part of the work in working with the one who's been betrayed,

they also can get stronger in this and know that what they have to say and what they want and what they need are important. Their needs are important too. So it's both people being able to look at and take accountability for themselves and the relationship. It's a lot. Yes. Yes.

Robert (41:37)
So there's a lot of ways for a couple, there's a lot of ways for somebody to be unfaithful. We kind of talked about that, whether it's sexually, emotionally, whatever it may be. For men versus women, is there one that it's harder for, I read this and it was like that men have a very hard time when the affair is physical versus a woman.

not saying she doesn't have a hard time, but it's a lot harder for men to get over that. Do you find that accurate? you know, physical affair is harder for a man to move past if he's been the one that's been betrayed. Do you find that's harder? And then on the flip side, what do you find that's harder for a female?

Jeanne (42:23)
Great questions. So I think generally speaking that tends to be true. Someone else, men want to be virile. Men want to know they've got it. Men want to know, you know, I'm your man. I can satisfy you. I can make you happy. can, you know, all those things. And when she has connected with another man,

It's competition. Is that man better than me? What does that man have that I don't have? So there's a male to male thing that occurs in betrayal even if you never meet the guy. There's this competition. He's the guy. He's kind of the alpha male and I'm not. So men in the process are trying to figure out how can I take back my position as alpha male? So that's why having sex

Robert (42:58)
Gotcha.

Jeanne (43:12)
is different than, I'm really close to him and you kind of have what is called an emotional affair. How does that fit with you when you think about that?

Robert (43:17)
That makes so much sense, yeah.

Yeah, no, makes a lot of sense when you say that and you put it to male versus male there and kind of the alpha male and you took what was mine. That definitely makes sense. Yeah.

Jeanne (43:33)
Right. And then for women, here's what tends to destroy women more. Did you say I love you to her? It's the I love you. So it's the deeper emotions. Okay.

Sometimes they see a text and she goes, you know, they see her the woman saying I love you and he says I love you too or love you babe or whatever the I love you Express even if the guy's saying I didn't really mean it. She said it I said it back the I love yous are really hard for women

Robert (44:04)
Wow, that's interesting. That's very interesting. And so it's not so much the physical for a woman at all. It is the emotional on that. That's interesting.

Jeanne (44:14)
I wouldn't say it's not the physical because it can also be that I'm

Robert (44:18)
Well, not as not as much it's hard. Am I incorrect

Jeanne (44:21)
I think it's both, but I the I love you kind of trumps, if you will, the physical, but it's thinking about you doing things to other women to satisfy them. the physical is bothersome too, but I think the I love yous are even more bothersome.

Robert (44:39)
Makes sense. So I know our time's a little bit limited. Can you tell me about your book? Can you tell me, you told us why you went into it, but can you kind of give us an overview of it?

Jeanne (44:50)
So the first book is written to men who have had an affair or affairs who have said

I really love my spouse or my partner. I want to make it work with them. And the beginning of the book goes into things like the vulnerability factors, the timeframes. And it invites a man to take a good hard look at himself. These are men, these aren't men that are very cavalier about what happened. These are men that are saying, I was out of integrity with who I am as a man.

I fell over here and I kind of got caught up in it and I didn't set good boundaries. And that's not who I am and that's not who I want to be moving forward. So it involves some individual work and that's, you know, we address that in some of the questions and some of the exercises. You know, who were your role models, you know, and there's a chapter on masculinity and what do you think of yourself as a man. So there's that individual work. And then there is what...

Do you have questions or anything? I don't want to, I talk fast.

Robert (45:59)
Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Cause when you said masculinity is, is, is that part of it as well where they're feeling less masculine and they're trying to prove their masculinity or, you know, is that part of the reason why sometimes you find that they, that would men would have an affair.

Jeanne (46:20)
It can be.

Absolutely. it really, it's, you know, we have this male-female dynamic, even though, you know, partnerships are more collaborative these days, but there is a dynamic between a man and a woman that when you feel that's kind of lost at home, or it could relate to, you know, trying to prove yourself to your dad, you know, there's so many things that go into who do you want to be and who are you and how do you see yourself as a man. And this is an opportunity to take a look at that too.

And yes, that can absolutely have an impact on you being distracted by someone else.

Robert (46:59)
That's interesting. You know, I had somebody on here, gosh, early on Dr. Daniel David, and we were talking about, it was one of the first episodes. And I can't remember if we were actually talking about it here or talking about it offline. And it was talking about if a guy, if a boy has not, when he reaches manhood, if he hasn't been told that he's a man,

by his father or by a man he looks up to, he's always striving to prove that he's a man and to prove that he has that masculinity, to prove that he's a man. with you talking about this, that kind of had me wondering like, is that something maybe they didn't receive when they were younger? So they're trying to go out there and prove they're a man in whatever way it may be, whether it's...

having affairs, conquering, whatever it may be, whether it's through work, whether it's women, whatever. I was wondering just in my back of my mind if there was some kind of dynamic there.

Jeanne (48:08)
I love it and I would say absolutely. know, in native cultures they had rituals, really tough rituals that you needed to go through to say I'm a man. In Judaism they have bar mitzvah, you know, I'm a man now, 13. But you know what, we don't have enough of those. And I would also say this really touches my heart because I think men these days tend to be a little bit more lost...

as far as this whole idea of what it means to be a man. Women have worked very hard for equality. They've come up, they've become more assertive. It's like, damn it, I'm equal, I want equal pay, I want equal, and so I think women, and women tend to gather together in groups so they have support. Men have been, this is what it means to be a man, this is what it means to be a woman, but is it? I think it's confusing these days, and I don't think there are the role models that there used to be, even though some of the

older role models were a little bit toxic. Big boys don't cry and you you had those messages too. But I think having, I would say like as you're saying that, when I think back to the men that I've worked with, again men really touch my heart.

It might even be 100 % did not have a strong male role model.

Or sometimes there was a basketball coach maybe or someone like that. But I think boys to men, we need more strong male role models to say, hey, here's what you do. And here's how you treat a woman. And here's how you feel good about yourself. It's not just, are you the one that's making the most money of all of your friends? Are you the one that's the CEO? I think it's really, that's why that chapter is so important, because it's how do you define masculinity? How do you see yourself as a man?

your role models, you know? And how can you kind of step into kind of being the leader, you know, in whatever capacity, you know, that you want to be now to feeling that sense of strength and confidence in your masculinity.

Robert (50:11)
That makes sense. That makes sense. That's interesting the correlation you drew there. It definitely makes sense. I was was wondering that when you said that because there's been a lot of talk on it. Well, Dr. David did, and then just with different ones, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who was on here, Cuttino and we were talking about these kids, and I don't want to get off our subject, but just for a second.

you know, these young kids that they're going to find these boys are going to, they're going to, they get to an age, they're searching for masculinity. They're searching for it somewhere and they're going to find it. And a lot of times it's not in the right place. You know, if they don't have that father figure, if they don't have that uncle, that they don't have that coach, somebody that can steer them in a right direction.

than it could be with gangs. could be with, you know, people that are selling drugs, you know, they kind of mute themselves in drugs and alcohol and that type. Yeah, and I agree. Part of the reason behind this podcast is, as I do agree with you, I think it has become extremely clouded from what I was even taught when I was young to what kids are.

I don't even know if they're taught a lot of times and then you get such a difference of guidance, whether it's through media, you know, whether it's through this, through that, you got, you got to be this way. No, you can't be too much that you can't be this way and you got to be this, you got to be that. And it's, you know, there's just not, I do agree. I think the, you know, you need to suck it up. Don't cry. I think that's toxic, but I think at times we get

too scared of, am I going to be labeled toxic if I teach him this way? Is that toxic? It's so much. And women have done a very good job of standing up and really empowering themselves. I think, guys, we've kind of let it happen to us. We kind of got scared and let it happen.

Jeanne (52:25)
the scales have tipped, you know?

there was such, mean, if you look back to shows like Mad Men, know, and in the 50s and the 60s, there was, you know, this whole male power and females serves the man. And, you know, there was a rebellion against that. And I think the scales tip the other way. And now they need to come back. And I think there's more and more men. And thank goodness for what you're doing, Robert, it really matters. Men need to discuss these things. Men need to have friendships with other men. You know, we have this, this, this miss,

Robert (52:57)
And we don't.

Jeanne (52:58)
Right and what I'll tell you this and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

We have this idea that men aren't deep. Men just are the surface. I find that is so not the case. It may take a little more to get to the depth, but the men that come in and work with me are very loyal. They appreciate having the opportunity to sit there and have someone that's not judging them and not telling them how they should be a man, but helping them get in touch with themselves. And we have great conversations about that.

Robert (53:29)
And we have gotten away from men groups, from guys getting together, whether it's getting together to play cards, whether it's watch a football. know, COVID I think was very harmful for men also in the fact of everybody just kind of you stay at home. You might have one person you go and play golf with or whatever, but we just don't get together with the guys that we used to and there's just not that.

And by missing that, we also don't have that accountability where you have that male friend that holds you accountable or will even say, Hey, you better watch it. You know, the conversation you're having with your assistant there with your colleague there that could go in a bad, bad place. You know, you wouldn't want, you know, you, you you wouldn't want

to do that to your family. You wouldn't want your wife to take that the wrong way. I don't think we have that near as much anymore. I just don't.

Jeanne (54:29)
I think I agree with you and I think that it's also sometimes more common to just.

It used to be, I think it's getting better. You just turn your head, know, Joe's flirting with Susie and whoa, they went out for drinks and all that and it's just like, I'm not gonna talk to him about it. But I think that as you step into your own integrity and respect yourself and your values, you've gotta talk to your friend if you see that. You you hold yourself accountable to your values for yourself, but also for your buddies. And what you're talking about is really important and I think that's why shows like this are really important too because they're great reminders

What does it mean to be a man? What happens when you see a buddy going sideways? Because a lot of times it's like all his friends knew about it but they never said anything. Well, you're doing a disservice to your friend. Sometimes you don't want to talk about it. If you're a friend, right, you've got to have the tough conversations with your friend. So this is good.

Robert (55:17)
It's not a friend. Yeah, you're not a friend. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So tell me one other question I want to ask you and then I want you to finish up with your book, you know, telling kind of give an overview of your life's book. Hereditary.

Jeanne (55:32)
Go ahead, you can ask me whatever you want. I love this.

Robert (55:37)
So I typed this in the other night and I'm like, and I typed in is infidelity, is it hereditary? And of course it was, I don't know what the numbers were like 60 to 80 % or 60, 70%. I guess it's hard to say that because you also, there's not a brain scan for that. There's not a way to really, I started thinking a little bit deeper about it. Well, you don't.

You can't really say it. When I think of hereditary, I think of it's something you pass on through your DNA to somebody else, right? Blue eyes, blue eyes, athleticism, whatever it may be. And then I started thinking that maybe it's not hereditary, maybe it's the environment they saw. So if their father was having affairs, maybe then the kids, the son or the daughter think it's okay or acceptable.

for that to happen. So I guess it's really hard. I guess my question isn't so much a question, but I was just wondering your thoughts on hereditary and such.

Jeanne (56:43)
I'd love to address it. think there's two things. One is it's absolutely modeling. It's modeling. And even if you see your dad and you saw your mom, let's say in case of male infidelity, you saw how hurt your mom was, you're like, I will never be that guy. All of a sudden, you find yourself being that guy and it's like, holy crap, I'm doing what my dad did. What the hell?

It's modeling and there's something new that's coming to the field, the idea of ancestral trauma. And it's like, know, when a dad was traumatized and a grandfather was traumatized or in a position where they were acting out and not dealing with their feelings, there's this thing called ancestral trauma that tends to also play out generationally. So while it's not genetic,

I don't believe there is this idea of how these things tend to play out. It happened to my grandpa, happened to my dad, it happened to, you And even if you're fighting against it, the modeling you receive is strong. I want to be a man.

My dad was a man. This is how he was a man. Even though it's not conscious, it does tend to influence, for sure. alcoholic, kids with alcoholic parents are 70 % more likely to be an alcoholic. You really need to be mindful if you have things that have happened ancestrally and that you've witnessed in your parents. You need to be really careful about how that shows up for you. Be even more aware.

Does that make sense?

Robert (58:18)
Yeah, it does. It does. It definitely does. Okay, so tell us about your book. Tell us a little tell us more about your book and I want you promote it and everything else.

Jeanne (58:22)
Okay.

Thank you. So the rest of it then so it's it's you know, the man coming in and dealing with himself and then It's also saying what what kind of emotions are your part? Is your partner going to go through what you know what to help him?

See, now yes, you know you've hurt your partner and she's heartbroken, but what's it gonna be like? What's she really going through? So I have a chapter on that. Then I have a chapter for the woman who's been betrayed. Hey, these are the emotions you're going to be going, these are the emotions you're most likely going to experience. These are some things. How do you take yourself back? While the affair was absolutely not your fault, because women generally speaking tend to think everything's their fault. What did I do wrong? What did I miss? It's not your fault.

but the repair is going to take both of you. So I talked to her and then I have a chapter two which is interesting. Some people told me to leave it out. They have a chapter for the affair partner. If you've been engaged with an unavailable man, you know, what's going on for you? Is it that you really didn't want a full relationship? Is it that you know, you had a bad, you know, things at home aren't going so well for you and you're connected? And...

I also say to her, if he has come to you and he has said, am making my relationship work, I need to cut this off, you need to respect that and you need to do your own healing work. Because when it's really difficult is when that affair partner too just keeps a hold of and doesn't let go because they're devastated at losing somebody they've connected with.

You know, everybody, this is an opportunity for everybody to step up and do their own work and decide who they want to be. And then the last part of it really addresses your relationship, differing communication styles. You know, I want to talk until we're resolved. I'm flooded. I need a break. But I want to talk until it's resolved. So, you know, how do you work through those different communication styles? Somebody's really fast. Like you can tell I'm probably pretty fast in my communication style. But the partner like takes a long time. They need lots of detail.

How do you how do you work with those differing styles? So the last part of the book is how do you heal some relational patterns that could have been going on for a long time and what are yours and then how do you create a relationship that thrives? That's why the book is so darn big. It's a big book But I tell people to one more thing and then I'll be quiet

Robert (1:00:44)
Where can you find the book? Yeah. Yeah. No.

Jeanne (1:00:46)
It's on Amazon. It's called the Infidelity Cure and it is on Barnes and Noble and I have a, you know, the book has its own website. It's INFCure.com or the InfidelityCure.com, you know, or there's my website, DrJeanneMichele.com and I'll have to give you how to spell it. Okay, thank you. And Robert, and also thank you so much.

Robert (1:01:04)
and I'll post that.

Yeah, I'll post that. I didn't even think about that with the affair partner. Wait, do what now? I'm sorry.

Jeanne (1:01:13)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no, no, you go. Yeah, because normally people don't.

Robert (1:01:20)
No, I didn't even think about that. It's interesting the chapter you wrote about the affair partner. I didn't even think about that. especially the ones that know it and purposely go after somebody that is married and then don't want to take their claws out of the person.

Jeanne (1:01:42)
And I find that it's more... Yeah, that's...

Robert (1:01:44)
That's a whole different conversation.

Jeanne (1:01:47)
That's a whole different thing. That's the whole idea of women becoming more assertive. But I find that it's more prevalent when there is an emotional connection that moves into, yes, I have women affair partners that have been what I call it predators, that have been more predatory and you know what, and then I'm going to tell your wife. I mean, really tough stuff. But then I think it's more common that they connect because they're working together or they find a bond somehow and they have trouble letting go.

because they could have created this fantasy that one day he's going to leave his wife or whatever's going on for them. And so I think that we need to be kind to everyone. For the most part, people are not demons doing bad things. So the idea is you go and do your own work. Whatever one of the three positions you're in, do your own work. And I also have a section talking about

you at least a few pages on how you set boundaries. Like, you know, you're starting to flirt with somebody and you're working on a project and you're being really close. Well, how do you make clear boundaries way back here? You know what? I really enjoy working on this project with you and we're really great working together. I just want to be really clear. I'm married and I'm, you know, I'm a faithful person. I just want to set this, yeah, I would have never thought that. Well, you don't know if she would have thought that or vice versa. But the more clearly you can set boundaries early on, the less likelihood

there is to slip into something.

I mean there's polite ways you can do it but you have to stay the course and make sure even after you have that, most of the time you have that conversation and, you know, it helps a lot. But then if something slips, again, alcohol is a big factor, you know, we're all going after happy hour after work. You got to be really careful with alcohol if there is an attraction there. Yeah, those damn happy hours.

Robert (1:03:38)
out for those happy hours. Yeah, so is it I'm not making light of it but is it kind of fair to say we're human everybody messes up people make mistakes an affair is a horrible mistake to make but it's not one that you can't work through you can work through that and move forward and

get your relationship back and potentially even stronger than it ever was. Is that fair?

Jeanne (1:04:10)
is fair and one other thing is that it's important to look at when I'm working with the individual.

What did you get from that affair? How did it, know, was there something that you're longing for that maybe you weren't even aware of that this relationship fulfilled because that is something to work on getting fulfilled in other ways. So it's not 100 % that, my God, it's the biggest mistake in my life. Yes. And what was the secondary gain? What did you get from it that you may not have been paying attention to that is an important need

to look at so that it helps you not slide into something again.

Robert (1:04:52)
Dr. Jeanne Michele, I appreciate you coming on. I definitely do. Thank you for taking the time. I'm glad we connected. look, I will post a link to your book as well. So again, thank you. thank you for all that you're doing as well. Okay. And

Jeanne (1:05:07)
Well, you right back at you, Robert. This has been fun and I've enjoyed it and I really appreciate what you're doing for men.

Robert (1:05:12)
Well, I-

Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for saying that it is a labor of love. So hopefully we can make a little bit of a difference. So, Hey, and thank you all for listening to the dad to dads podcast. You can find us on most podcast platforms as well as on Instagram and YouTube. And, don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button so you don't miss any future episodes. Also, leave me a comment. I read every one of them and,

I love reading those and love hearing the topic suggestions as well. feel free to leave a comment. and we will see you all next time.