Navigating Divorce: Insights from Divorce Strategist Keegan Burke

Having personally been through an 11 year divorce/custody process, Keegan Burke, a divorce strategist, shares his insights on navigating the complexities of divorce, particularly for men. He discusses the importance of having a strategy, understanding the obstacles men face, and the common mistakes made during the divorce process. Keegan emphasizes the need for documentation, dealing with false allegations, and managing relationships with attorneys. He also provides valuable advice for dads going through divorce, highlighting the importance of planning and accountability.

Takeaways

• A divorce strategist helps men understand the divorce process.
• Economic considerations are crucial in divorce planning.
• Men often underestimate the costs associated with divorce.
• Attorneys may not always provide the best advice for clients.
• Documenting everything can serve as vital evidence in court.
• Men need to be proactive in protecting their interests during divorce.
• The family law system can be biased against men.
• It's important to choose the right attorney for your case.
• False allegations are a common tactic in divorce proceedings.
• Having a solid strategy can significantly improve outcomes in divorce.

Transcript

Robert (00:33)
Keegan, welcome to the podcast.

Keegan Burke (00:35)
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Robert (00:37)
Hey, so, okay, tell me this. So you're a divorce coach or divorce strategist. Correct. What, what is that?

Keegan Burke (00:42)
Correct.

So a divorce strategist is...

almost self-explanatory, but not really. I divorce is a pretty big category. It's an important one, especially for men. And I think that ultimately the goal is to help a man understand what he is up against. What is the road forward going to look like? My job is to analyze the case, evaluate strong points, weak points, economics, right? That's a big one. Preparation. If you're in a relationship or you're thinking about divorce, lots of guys

go through the is it cheaper to keep her kind of consideration but have no idea how to evaluate that. So I do a lot of that kind of economic underwriting of divorce right what should you expect to spend what will you want to spend money on how do you prioritize that spend lots of men under

under measure, right, so we expect it to be a lot cheaper. I think oftentimes we get not false but misrepresented guidance around the cost from attorneys. The economics are important when it comes to selecting your attorney. It's important when it comes to directing your attorney to focus on certain things. The economics are important when it comes to

making decisions around what you should be prioritizing as it relates to your time, attention and energy. I think that's kind of the overall point. Also from a strategic standpoint, whether you have an attorney or not, I have found that some folks ask the question, do I need a strategist if I have an attorney? And the attorneys would generally say yes. And so would the client because

It's one of those things where we, men and women really, go through the process of intraday challenges, Exchanges, communications, mishaps, health issues, whatever it is, and you don't necessarily want to put those activities or decisions or things that you're dealing with in front of your attorney at 500 plus an hour, right? So...

And because it's really probably not a legal conversation, the flip side of that point is that while it may not be a legal conversation, what you're doing could be used in your legal arguments. So you want to make sure that you're responding, behaving, and producing the things that matter so that you're not kind of shooting yourself in the foot along the way. The other part is from a coaching standpoint, Whether you have an attorney or not.

Attorneys speak way over most guys heads. We're not legal experts. We haven't been in a courtroom. We're not manipulative by nature, right? So it's like an attorney might say something, we might get served something, we might need to do something and we have no idea. It's like deer in headlights. So it's quarter that like sounding board, that grounding piece to your overall experience as a man and it's very hard. The other kind of final point that I would say that I...

Robert (03:40)
Right.

Keegan Burke (03:59)
really think is important from a strategist standpoint is are you prepared to take this battle on? It is not a short one. It requires patience. It requires a plan. It requires almost an unimaginable dedication to your cause. And if you're not really prepared to do that, then don't. Don't get in with one toe in the water. You have to jump in

to the pool. And a strategist is going to help you kind of make that decision and then help you along the way. Be your life raft, if you will. So those are kind of the general topics, and it's pretty wide reaching. And that's what I do.

Robert (04:39)
Right.

Going through a divorce, I can say that is a lot. you do need somebody in all aspects of that. I did not have a coach during that time. Maybe the service was available. I wasn't aware of it, but man, that would be so helpful. So what got you into this? Tell me your background. How do you know about this? I know there's probably not a class on it. Why are you so good at this?

Keegan Burke (05:15)
Yeah, and it's funny what you just said is actually exactly why I'm doing it. And it's I wish I had me going through my divorce. So my background's finance tech, so pretty detail-oriented, organized. It's why the economics is an important piece of it. Planning, strategy, all of that is kind of the foundation of my existence. But.

Robert (05:16)
Have so much knowledge.

Keegan Burke (05:41)
I've been through a Hollywood-esque divorce in California. It won't do us any good to get into the nitty-gritty details of it, but my experience is it was 11 years. A custody battle that was a five-day trial. I have been accused of anything that you can imagine, whether it's physical, mental, emotional, sexual assault.

I have had fabricated evidence produced, have had fabricated testimony, I have been set up at staged assaults where they've tried to have me arrested for assaulting her father. I've had pictures actually produced and testified to, to me beating her up, which again, we can get into the details of the false evidence and false allegations later. I have been accused of molesting my kids on two separate occasions and I have three boys.

So my experience is pretty extensive. My first year in divorce, I think I was in the courtroom 27 days. I mean, that's a lot of time in a courtroom. And you don't sit there and deal with just your case. You're watching other cases. You're watching how it goes. So I just have a lot of experience as it relates to the process. And some folks would be like, well, I mean, every state is different and it is.

Robert (06:52)
and a lot of money.

Keegan Burke (07:05)
But the general notions are blanket, right? And I'm not a lawyer, I'm not providing legal advice, it's really more tactical and strategic in the way you manage yourself in the process so that you have an opportunity for success. So that's my background and that's why I'm actually doing it. Because I couldn't find me when I was going through it. I mean we have a lot more social media at our fingertips now but still, and by the way to that point I see what really made me do it

Robert (07:25)
Right.

Keegan Burke (07:35)
The way I'm doing it now is I've helped dads for years and years and years on a one-on-one basis kind of consultative. And over the last couple years, I've seen more and more content creators, if you will, just trying to put out the feel good, the how do you heal, how do you this, how do you that. And it's all really noise. It's not something that you can take and go, how do I protect my rights? How do I protect my freedom? How do I protect my finances and my custody?

And so that's where I was like, okay, I've got a book, I've got the templates, I've been doing it, I've been through it myself, it's time to scale. It's time to give back and really provide tangible guidance to dads who need it.

Robert (08:19)
So you've learned this by going through it, serving in the trenches. Man, I mean, there's probably no better way to learn it, but I hate you for having to go through it, but I do appreciate you sharing it. I do think that we go through things in life and what we learn from those, we're supposed to give back, Supposed to help others to maybe make their path easier. I hate you again, I hate you for having to go through it, but it seems like you have gone through hell. So are you telling me 11 years

Keegan Burke (08:23)
That's right.

Robert (08:46)
Like from start to finish that you were going through the divorce slash custody process.

Keegan Burke (08:55)
Yeah, so the case was bifurcated and bifurcation just means that they separated the primary topics, right? Assets and liabilities and custody. It was pretty early in the case that the judge realized we need to get the custody thing figured out quickly. You know, I had divorced her while she was pregnant with number three. So started with 50-50 right off the get-go while she was pregnant. Then, you know, getting to the baby was a difficult task.

But at the end of that kind of early process, was sole custody, sole physical, sole legal. She was given no overnights, monitored visits, and all due to kind of that attention to detail, doing the extra things, a little bit of luck, maybe grace of God, but an unwillingness to quit because all of it was centered around protecting the children.

And so that was my driving factor. And thankfully, I was one of not many who was able to do that.

Robert (10:04)
Cause that's, you don't hear that from any dads where they're able to, uh, I know it's tough and it's kind of a case back or state by state as well. Some this is not even a state by state. It's judged by judge, but, um, yeah. So congratulations on that. So tell me this. I mean, there's so much I want to, I want to get into, if we're one question I have is, do you work with, you, you work with the course, the person going through a divorce, do you act as sort of a liaison between them?

and their attorney or do you let them keep that communication between them and their attorney or how is that?

Keegan Burke (10:36)
Good question.

It's really case by case. depending on the attorney and the client, I'm happy to sit in on meetings, so be a translator, if you will, an intermediary. I oftentimes try to provide some guidance going into the meeting with the attorney so that they can handle it. They come out, and we get to work on certain elements, certain management features, certain tactics.

certain communications with the opposing side, not opposing counsel, but opposing spouse or relationship. So it really is case by case. It just depends on the need.

Robert (11:17)
Okay. Okay. And I'll tell you what, again, after going through it, I know there's times when, and you're getting all this paperwork, you're getting emails from your attorney and it is so much to consume. And I remember my attorney telling me one time, it's like, she was like, look, this is such a small matter. Is it worth paying X amount of dollars to fight over this, this one little detail? Um, and I imagine having somebody like you that's

not, you're in the game, but you're not right there on the field, you know, in that play where you can kind of look at it from a different view and say, hey, look, let's take some breaths. Let's relax. Here's what this means. Here's the ramifications of it. Here's how it will affect things. Is this worth it or not? Probably not, or probably so. That would be so helpful to have that. So helpful.

Keegan Burke (12:11)
Yeah, it's sort of like back when I was in, you know, pure finance, it was, I can give you the economic guidance and you can make the emotional decision. It's almost the same thing. It translates in the same way, right? I can give you the general synopsis, but you're going to have to make the emotional decision as to does that meet your standards of moving forward on this topic or not. So it's interpretation, ultimately, right?

Robert (12:38)
Yeah.

All right. So let's jump into some of the biggest obstacles that you see men face when they're going through a divorce or custody hearing. What are some of those?

Keegan Burke (12:49)
Yeah, I think the first and most would probably just ring this bell and that's the system. You know, the laws are equal. Application of the law is not. It just is, it's a reality that we face as men. It's, you know,

we step up to the plate and in order to get to the table, we have to climb Mount Everest first. And so the system incentivizes women. It gives them a whole lot more leeway. Family law is a unique legal system framework anyway, just from an evidentiary standpoint, process, et cetera. And so I think that's one, the system. Two,

Men, us, we, ourselves are our second biggest obstacle. We are not designed to navigate this process well. We are providers, we are protectors. Just our general demeanor is we're the bad guy from the jump. We are a little bit more current when we finally get pressed to a response. We have a tough time managing our responses.

because we do have emotions, they're just a little bit deeper. And so the opposing side does a really good job of poking a whole bunch of holes and hoping that you blow out one of them. And so I think that we are generally ignorant, and that's not necessarily a derogatory point. It's like, why would we know the system? But we are generally ignorant to...

what we have to do to we lack a certain amount of accountability and that's because we are either dismissive or too hopeful that it will work itself out. Lots of men get serve stuff and don't do anything with it. It's like, you know, is whatever. They're upset, they're too busy, they're working, they're doing their life which is what we all sign up and wake up and do every single day.

Robert (14:37)
Good way to put it.

Keegan Burke (14:57)
But ultimately I think too, we are terrible at our control kind of measures and that's control around how you say, what you say, when you say. Because the system, the first biggest obstacle is really designed to be, you know, we're punching bags. And so it's just we're constantly being bombarded with what I would call wrongs, right? We are going to be wronged and...

It gets old and it gets old really fast. So, the third one, I think bad advice is a big obstacle for men, friends, family, even counsel. I think lots of people get bad advice and it's not an intentional bad advice, right? It's people wanting to help, but they're not necessarily attached to the outcome like the man is.

And so there's no way for them to give really good advice, sound advice that is considerate of all the things that most people that are giving the advice don't know about or don't understand. And I would go so far as to say even counsel gives bad advice because they're paid to do so. A perfect example. I'll give you a small example of that. Counsel is not incentivized to tell you don't respond to this

Robert (16:18)
Hmm. Yeah, I want to hear about this.

Keegan Burke (16:26)
You don't need to focus on that. You don't need to do this. A man who's upset about a certain situation, maybe a timeshare change or some discovery request. An attorney is going to say, well, we can respond to this. I can write this letter. We can file this motion. We can do this deposition. Why? Because they're paid to do that. Why wouldn't they do that? There's nothing stopping them from doing that, especially if there are economics that back it. And the attorney is going to know that.

Is anybody there going, hey, that's not that important. You don't actually need to do that and here's another path forward or maybe we can merge that with something else later. And so, counsel is sort of the same thing, right? I think they are absolutely paramount. If you can, you should have an attorney. If it's not for the process and administrative stuff and filings, at least in a courtroom. Have a day attorney, right?

Stand-in for the day to make your arguments. No judge wants to talk to a civilian They want to talk to somebody who knows the court rules in the process so even attorneys give bad advice because Why wouldn't they right so?

Robert (17:40)
Good point.

I've never thought about that, but you're right. Yeah.

Keegan Burke (17:43)
And then

the final piece of that advice is our own. We, as men, are living our lives, we're sharing our homes, we're raising our kids, we're providing for our families. And then one day, if it's not our decision, we're sideswiped by the fact that life is gone, it's probably taken the kids, and all of that time that's consumed by that kind of ecosystem disappears.

We're living in a vacuum of our own minds, our own struggles, our own experience. Listen, we just, we're not prepared to make good sound decisions when you get stuck in that vacuum. I'm an advocate for buttoning down the hatches and picking the right people to have around you, but isolation isn't good either. So it's one of those really tough situations that you have to manage through.

Robert (18:32)
Yeah, good point.

Yeah, it's, man, I think about the different ones with me when I was going through it. I did not have a coach, but it is so important with those that you surround yourself with.

You know, I've said it before. I did not want, I did not want a lot of yes. I didn't want any yes people. I really didn't. You know, you have those in your life where they will tell you, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. Oh, screw her. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, she's horrible. I wanted people and I really kind of did narrow down the little circle. Um, that told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear.

And I feel like that was, that was paramount. I mean, that was so very important to kind of help me through that.

Keegan Burke (19:23)
Totally.

The, yeah, no, I totally agree. And it's hard to do. I mean, it's, because you just have no, I mean, literally you're standing in the middle of a field and you don't know, and by the way, it's not just a field, it's a field littered with mines. Yeah. It's just like you're going, I don't know which direction to go here. The other thing that I think is a major, major obstacle for men is because the system,

Robert (19:30)
Yeah.

with mines. When you said that, I was thinking, filled with land mines.

Mm-hmm.

Keegan Burke (19:54)
and the process is designed to incentivize women, they're given more leash, the hyper fixation on us being wronged. It's like we tend to just grab all of the...

Are they huge deals? Is it a big problem? No, not that small thing, but it's just this totality of little things and we fixate on the little things rather than trying to pull out or combine those little things into one big topic. And so that hyper fixation on where we're being wronged really undermines the process for us. It creates poor responses, poor behavior. It's really kind of...

takes our attention off the most important parts of our argument, the most valuable things of our argument. It can be interpreted as control, right? I mean, that's a negative thing when it comes to being a man and maybe they're driving some narrative around aggression or control freak or whatever it might be. But it is, you know, that perception piece that's important too. And what a time suck

to lose that for mental sanity on an individual basis, but also for resources, for people helping you. Do you want to spend a half an hour talking about X, Y, Z, and it really doesn't matter? So, helping get through that is also another thing that I think one, a strategist is going to do or a coach, but it is a big problem and obstacle that I see all the time. mean, so many conversations that I have with men are about things that it's like,

I know that's important to you. I know that it's wrong. But this isn't that important when it comes to the grand scheme of things.

Robert (21:39)
And that's the thing is looking at it from a big picture. And so that's where you're really able to kind of clear that up for everybody.

Keegan Burke (21:49)
Yeah, and so I made a note to bring it up and it was the obstacles but kind of parlaying into common mistakes, the things that I think are like exacerbate the obstacles, right? And so a couple things that I had written down was I think that it's twofold. One, we need to do a better job of picking our partners. I'm guilty as sin of that.

Robert (22:04)
Yeah, yeah.

Keegan Burke (22:17)
You know, I ignored red flags for days. I was young, I was successful, I wanted to be a dad. But probably should have, you know, picked a different path. Silver lining, three beautiful children, the whole nine yards. But ultimately, it's waiting to make a move. It's not identifying that we need to be more proactive in protecting our interests. It's this passiveness, it's this hopefulness, it's that...

Maybe it's even reconciliation, also guilty, right? My ex was arrested for DV. I reconciled, had two more kids after the fact. That humongous mistake. And so I think for men it's like, when we sign up, we generally do sign up for the long term. We want to figure out how to make it work. So many men are, yeah, 100%. That's a great way to put it.

Robert (23:08)
We're fixers.

Keegan Burke (23:14)
And so I think that's a major thing that needs to be addressed for men is where are we at and what do I need to do? And I think too, the other thing that we ignore is women will stay in a marriage and plan their way out and they won't do it in a week. They'll do it over years. know women today who are in marriages and they are just waiting for another year to tick.

Robert (23:33)
years yeah two years or more yeah yeah

Keegan Burke (23:43)
or a job to change or something to happen where they get to hit the exit button. And that's what men are ignorant of or hopeful that that isn't the case. And so I think increasing our vigilance and awareness is gonna be really important for enabling success. Other mistakes, no plan, right? mean, divorce is war. I don't know anybody who would go into war.

They don't know what their stockpile looks like. They don't know what weaponry they have. They don't know anything about their enemy. You got to have a plan. Not having a plan is a plan to fail. Another one, a common mistake. Just because, and this analogy goes back to the field in the land mines, right? Most men go, okay, well, I don't know anything about this process. They just go get an attorney. And it's like, okay, yes, advocate for attorneys, work with lots of them. But.

Now you're just sitting in the field in a tank, but you still have landmines all around you. And yeah, the attorney's gonna drive the tank for you or shoot the gun, but you gotta pick and still weave around some of those landmines and having a plan is really important. And by the way, if you get the plan first, it helps you pick your attorney. Do you need a man? Do you need a woman? What is their experience? Is it negotiation? Is it litigation? Is it, you know,

Robert (24:52)
Right.

Keegan Burke (25:07)
allegations of abuse, what is their expertise? And I'll give you an example. I have had a handful of attorneys. First attorney, I spent, well I'll tell you, $60,000 writing letters at the very beginning of my case. I mean, I didn't realize what a waste that was. She did a couple great things, but I could have gone with fewer letters, I can tell you that. I've had attorneys where I've had to fire them in the courtroom because they're trying to back down my argument and

I'm going, no, this is the argument. Your Honor, I'm not changing my moving papers and I'm not changing my, I'm ready to go to trial. And see you later. The attorney I settled on, when I went and had my consult with him, I know my case better than anybody. Most men generally know their case inside and out, but you have to have that good kind of synergy with the attorney. The attorney put me on my heels on my case. So,

He started questioning me about my case and his ability to interrogate me on examination was I'm going to trial. Everything's ready, I'm going to trial. That's the type of attorney I need now. I don't need one that can put paperwork together and know certain laws. I need the guy who, the modern day Matlock in the courtroom. How's he going to examine? How's he going to cross examine? How's he going to bring evidence to the table? That's what I needed. And so those are all kind of the nuances of attorney selection.

Robert (26:18)
Right.

Keegan Burke (26:33)
don't just run to an attorney. And by the way, I'd much rather spend a grand or two on consults, right, the $450 or $500 an hour, than wasting a $10,000 retainer on an attorney I shouldn't have picked.

Robert (26:48)
True, true. Don't you think we, we do a bad job. think, I think this is, and I am not knocking attorneys. think attorneys are necessary and I can tell attorney jokes with the best of them. But, you know, I get with my business, I get very frustrated with our attorneys at times. But what I see talking to different guys is

they're not in control of their attorney, where they basically are letting their attorney control everything. And you know, a lot of times my conversation goes back to them. Well, is this really what you want? Is this where you're wanting to go? Is this how you're wanting? Well, no, but my attorney says this and my attorney wants to do this. And, you know, and I've told several.

tell your attorney, no, remind them you're the one paying them. They work for you.

Keegan Burke (27:39)
100 % agree and from a man's perspective that trickles down to into the accountability bucket, right? We are accountable for our

case, our success, everything that matters to us. And then it flows up to what is priority in your case. Is that what you want? And you need to make those decisions and then you need to point your weaponry in the right direction, right? Your attorney is a tool to help you be successful. And you are the one that is ultimately pointing that tool in the right direction to take out your enemy. And so I completely agree. It's

same thing that I said earlier. They're incentivized just to go chase and do everything under the sun. And if that's not a priority for you, you're wasting time, energy, resources.

Robert (28:30)
Remember how they're paid, they're paid by the hour.

Keegan Burke (28:32)
That's right. And that $10,000 retainer that signed them up disappears very quickly.

Robert (28:41)
Tell me somebody that has received a refund from their retainer.

Keegan Burke (28:46)
I haven't met anybody.

Robert (28:47)
I've never, I've never heard anybody. I've had conversations with people who said, well, I had to give a $10,000 retainer, a $15,000 retainer, but they said it shouldn't cost that much. And it's like, yeah, we'll see how long this thing can be drug out. So, all right. So tell me this. Uh, I want to get in when you mentioned false allegations, I want to get into that and false evidence. Are there some myths that maybe men have heard or myths?

Keegan Burke (28:59)
Yeah, never. Yep. Yep.

Robert (29:17)
that are out there. Tell me about those.

Keegan Burke (29:19)
So I think the biggest myths are that dads can't win. We're seeing more and more dads win. And I think that it's because we are seeing more... Well...

The laws have become more equitable, but generally speaking, they're also being applied a little bit better too. I think most people are recognizing that there really needs to be a larger, bigger, stronger effort to keeping dads in their kids' lives. And so a lot of states, a lot of courts are looking for ways to do that versus just pulling the plug on the dad. And so, so long.

as we don't shoot ourselves in the foot and then try to climb Mount Everest, that in itself is going to give you a much better chance at winning. Listen, that does not mean that even if you do everything right, you won't lose something or you won't lose or you won't or that you're going to get your way. That's just not the reality of it. And I can testify to that point too, right? Not everything works out the way you want it to and I do this stuff.

But you can win, you just have to be accountable and you have to do the necessary things to do that. And then the other one is I hear guys that are on the crappy end of the table or the low end of the totem pole and they say, well, I have nothing on the books, I've tried everything, there's nothing I can do.

I don't, family law is never, you're never in a position where there's nothing you can do. If you're not happy with the situation, there's, it may not be something you can do tomorrow, but that's the whole point. It started with patience, it's gonna end with patience, it's a long road. And.

you can keep doing things. have to go back to the drawing board. You have to reevaluate your situation. There are things that you can do to move your case forward. And I think too many men believe that that's not the case. Once the order is the order, it's never going to change. No way. Family law custody orders are dynamic. There are generally ways that you can move the ball forward.

Robert (31:35)
That's good. That's good. it depends state by state and it's country by country as well. But I do feel like it is, some places it is moving faster or getting more fair, if you want to that for guys. It's progressing a little bit better than others. But I do think...

You are seeing, think two people are starting to, whether it's the courts, whatever it may be, they're starting to realize the importance of dads were so long. It was just, Hey, he's a provider. You know, he's the wallet, let him be, but they're starting to realize that, you know, and the evidence is out there. I mean, we, my goodness, we have, um, we spotlighted it so many times on here, but so many people talk about it where the, you know, looking at the statistics for a child raised in a

a two parent home is almost identical as a child raised by just by their father when it, you know, but then when you look at when it's raised by a single mother, you know, there's a higher rate of incarceration, higher dropout rate from high school, you know, all of these things, higher rate of suicide. there's reasons for that. I'm not saying it's because of single moms, there's more single moms out there.

But I think now that the court systems are getting more educated, more aware of this. And look, I've said it a hundred times and I totally believe it. I think part of the reason why we're seeing such, what we're seeing in society today and what we complain about day in and day out, we complain about the youths and the crimes and all this stuff. I totally believe.

that that comes back to the lack of fathers being involved or no father in the house in the household. I mean, it definitely is, you know, easy thing. You can look at these mass shootings, whether it's a school shooting, whether it's, know, you know, happening on the streets, whatever, you know, I've done some deep dives into that and the percentages are staggering when you start looking where there's no dad at home.

Keegan Burke (33:27)
I agree.

Robert (33:48)
There's no father at home, no father involved in their life. And I think the court systems are finally starting to see that, hopefully.

Keegan Burke (33:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, they have to. And I think, we need to keep pushing for more education, more reform as men, as dads across the board. And really, women. Women are just as much a participant in this dysfunction. Right? mean, why does a man have to fight to be with his kids just because you guys didn't work out?

Robert (34:14)
Yeah. yeah, I agree.

Keegan Burke (34:21)
He was with his kids everyday when you were working out.

Robert (34:22)
Yeah.

Yeah, that I don't get. I mean, that I feel like is a is a form of child abuse.

Keegan Burke (34:29)
Well, but there's a motivation to it, and it's economic. so they're incentivizing.

Robert (34:34)
I think that's

I think that's it on most cases. do. I think it's economics. I think it's also in ways just to punish the doubt as well.

I I really do. How much pain can I give him? So you brought it up, false allegations and false evidence. You've obviously, unfortunately, experienced that. Let's say you're faced with that. What do you recommend? A guy comes to you, he's like, look, my ex or soon to be ex is saying I'm abusive. She's saying I'm a bad dad. She's saying I'm not involved. She's saying I'm...

you know, whatever sexually assaulted her or her the kids or whatever. How do you handle that? Like, what do you what do do?

Keegan Burke (35:24)
Yeah, so a couple things and this is a really big topic. One, as you

Robert (35:29)
And it, well, hold on. And before

you answer that Keegan, it feels like that is becoming more and more common. Maybe it's just because I'm in this space now, but from the people I talked to and the messages I receive, gosh, feel, feel like it's so it's out there overwhelmingly.

Keegan Burke (35:48)
It's overwhelming because it is the nuclear option. It is the silver bullet that negates all things. And it is...

I don't want to say 100 % of the time, but I'll say 100 % of the time directed at the man being the perpetrator against the woman or the children. And unfortunately, there have been movements and or perspectives that just say, hey, no matter what, we have to believe the fact that it was the man that was the perpetrator. And we continue to realize over time as it continues to unfold that that's just not true. But.

as a man because we do see it so often and you see it, I see it, you have to presume that you're going to be accused of some type of abuse, some type of aggression and you have to behave and manage yourself accordingly. If you're in a relationship, you need to identify signs that that's possible. What do I mean by that? I actually just posted about this topic yesterday. I'll give you an example. In my case,

I, she had been arrested for DV and of course I held all the cards. But it was after that when we reconciled it was about trying to turn the tables. Right now I've got to be, now she needs to make me the abuser. And so I'd be downstairs and I'd get a text message, don't you ever talk to me like that and if you ever do this to me again and I'm like looking at my phone going, am I in the twilight zone? Like I haven't seen her for an hour and a half, I've been on the couch. And so.

Robert (37:16)
What the hell?

Keegan Burke (37:21)
You, like, if that doesn't like, just like lights flashing alarm bells in your head, then you're being too dismissive and too hopeful or too passive. And so I think for men, identifying signs that maybe they exaggerate an argument, or when they're telling a story to a friend, or you get an argument and the friend's around and they're making you seem like the aggressor, you need to put in the back of your mind that if this goes sideways, the relationship falls apart, that's where they're going.

And so identifying those things early, whether it's texts, calls, witnesses, etc. Increasing your vigilance is the first way to navigate and manage it. But that also means increasing control over the way you behave. And this is kind what we talked about earlier. We get angry. We might raise our voice. generally I think far fewer than our accused raise their hand, right?

doesn't mean you should raise your voice. think that there are men or situations where yelling and screaming is abusive, right? It's not like that doesn't happen. But making sure you're in control of yourself so that doesn't is the first step to defending against those types of things. If you can personally sit down and know that you've never crossed the line or walked into the gray area where that accusation, even if it's exaggerated, holds any weight,

There's just a certain level of confidence that you have across the board going in anything. And so that's one. Increasing your control over your behavior, your actions, your speech. If you're on a phone call and she's with her girlfriends and you get an argument and you're screaming and yelling, guarantee you're on speakerphone. Guarantee she's got three witnesses now. You have to be aware of that as a man. And we just aren't.

Robert (39:06)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Keegan Burke (39:16)
The other thing, document everything. So, let's say you get that text that is exaggerating something or a completely false narrative across the board. Hit it head on. Deny it. Put it in writing. Summarize your situation. Explain that that's not the proper context. Just make sure that you've got some plausible in context. Like lots of times text messages will come, I read, listen, I read guys text messages with their X's and

The whole thing is taken out of context, right? It's, if he says, I'm done with you, she'll use that as, I'm gonna kill you. And it's, you need to provide context. Don't leave it vague and ambiguous to where it could be used against you. That's again, managing the way you handle your everything. And listen, that's just improved operating management in your day-to-day life. Like, just be very clear. And if something comes up,

Robert (40:04)
Great advice.

Keegan Burke (40:12)
Clearly deny it or provide the context and I would argue that there are often times where if it's like an argument It's probably two ways right women. Yell women scream women are Abusive to men whether we want to admit it or not as men So making sure that you kind of level the playing field with facts It's worth doing so that when you go to that when that text comes up as evidence later You've got some counter to it. That's time stamp that's relevant and it's situational

Start journaling guys What I did was I created an email that was you know the KB Daily and You know you're on your phone sitting in bed Just if there's nothing just say nothing to report on the day or start bullets right this happened this happened anything major anything familial any

Robert (40:46)
Yeah.

Keegan Burke (41:06)
Just start doing that, whether you're in a relationship or on, especially in a separated environment, right? You need to be journaling everything anyway. Everything becomes evidence. Not everything is usable, but everything is something that you want to have together. Correcting the record, check your local laws for recording. If it's a single party state, listen, we got Ring cameras, we've got Arlo cameras, we've got spy cameras.

Robert (41:32)
Right.

Keegan Burke (41:33)
We've got recording devices. phone now can, you can hit the top left button and record a phone call. Now, again, you have to know the laws, but if you do that, that is a massive win to being able to undermine an allegation. And then the other one is consider third parties. So I've got two examples here. Some men,

Robert (41:37)
to record. Yep. Yeah.

Keegan Burke (42:00)
Most men probably wouldn't go to this extent, but in my situation, what ultimately led to the divorce was my ex-wife wanted a nanny and I was like, okay, fine. And then I thought about it I was like, me too. I want, at this point, given all the things that happening in our household, a third party witness. I know my behavior is spot on. I am like, I dot every I, cross every T, I've never been aggressive, I've never done anything wrong. I don't have to worry about my behavior.

She has to worry about hers, I want to witness. Well, that was a humongous piece that I won't get into the details, but that nanny came to me with details that ultimately forced me into filing for divorce while she was pregnant, number three. The second piece of using a third party. Again, in a separation and like in flight, third parties become really important. And I'm not talking use your sister, your mom, your brother.

Those are biased witnesses and losing counsel can cut them apart all day long. Get a professional. Use a monitor. In my case, so there's a video that has like millions and millions of views of a staged assault. Found by the court of staged assault, kept me out of jail, thank God. Well, after a handful of situations similar to that, the court actually took the position that

Robert (42:59)
Right.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah.

Keegan Burke (43:25)
these videos or videoing can enhance or create more animosity at an exchange. And I hear that all the time now, courts saying no videoing, no cameras at exchanges. Well now what if you're a man? Now you're exposed to he said, she said. I said, you know what? I'm not doing that. I hired a professional monitor from the court's list and I said, I want you at every exchange. And so you're going to be there and you're going to provide your monitor's note.

Timestamps describe what happened who is there and you're gonna witness the exchange and When I had my one hour per week with my infant our infant You're gonna monitor my parenting and when I have that one hour with all of our kids you're going to monitor my parenting and Let me tell you no dad wants to have a professional monitor watching him interact with his children is the most Degrading experience and I feel for any man

Robert (44:21)
Yeah, I can't imagine that.

Keegan Burke (44:24)
But I personally took that on and I said I'm not going to let somebody else provide a false narrative on how I parent and how these exchanges are going. Those monitors were able to produce copious notes, vet my parenting style, show my ability to manage three kids two and under, including an infant. They were able to account for a bunch of very sketchy behaviors that took place at exchanges.

They were able to account for her spraying her perfume on the infant's head for my hour. Right? So I get, by the way, I get messages, why are you spraying perfume on our child? And I'm like, I'm getting them like this, thank God. The monitor had produced the notes. Right? So I off that false allegation, the monitor would...

Robert (45:14)
Why the hell

was she spraying perfume on the head?

Keegan Burke (45:18)
You know, I would say harassment for there's no other reason, right? To do something. but at the same time, that infant boy, I'd get him for my hour while dressed in girls' clothing.

So when we're talking about spitefulness, it's there. But the point is this. That was third party, that was extreme diligence, and it saved, call it my life if you will, in a lot of ways. It saved the boys' life in some capacity in keeping them in mind and allowing me to ultimately win. And so when it comes to false allegations, you have to, as a man, go the extra mile.

Robert (45:36)
Yeah.

Keegan Burke (46:02)
And hopefully that answers the questions. you've got a DV already, boy, Mount Everest is Mount Everest time two Doesn't mean you can't overcome it.

Robert (46:11)
Yeah.

Keegan Burke (46:13)
The courts generally, public policy is there is an ability to rehabilitate and keep you in your kid's life. It's just do you have the cojones to sign up for what that's going to take.

Robert (46:25)
what it's going to take to do it. You know, back on it, when we talked about earlier, I do think, I think we can both agree. I women are a lot more calculated, a lot more strategic when it comes to a divorce. And they do not say everyone, but a lot of them do plan well in advance. know what's, they, you know, they're just waiting for that final piece of evidence, that final shoe to drop or that promotion or.

whatever it may be where us guys are, yeah, we'll fix it or, it's not going to happen. We are passive. We are. And I, you know, I do think if I guess my point is, you know, to any guys that are listening out there, if you have an inkling, if you have that feeling in your gut, yeah, the, is when you need to be aware. This is, you know, if you're in

marriage counseling, if it's, if you feel the goal post are always moving, yeah, you should. And you know, I had one guy tell me that he had created a Google docs and he said it literally, he had just a couple of columns and it was the date. I think the date and the time, and then like explanation of whatever it may be. And it was the same thing where

You know, she sent me a text of accussing me of this and that I hadn't even seen her for two hours. You know, I had been gone. you know, not really sure what this is about and would go into detail, but just every little thing. He said, didn't take long. And he said, you know, being a Google docs, he could just, you know, enter it from anywhere, whether it was a work computer, his phone, whatever it was. but I, I think that is so important. think the more documentation you have.

the better. And if anything too, you can look back on it when you think you're crazy, you can look back on it and go, wow, gosh, this was going on 18 months ago. I forgot about that. You know, when you're meeting with attorneys and they're asking you for, for history and you, know, when you're in such a daze, you can't remember everything. You've got it right there.

Keegan Burke (48:38)
The other thing too for those that are on the road a lot, and in our divorce I was driving a lot so I'd hit a voice note and I'd just talk my note because now you've got transcription tools if you need to transcribe it or you can just use it, throw it on a thumb drive, it's date stamped, the metadata is attached to it. By the way, that does bring me to false allegations in a courtroom so...

Robert (48:42)
Good point.

Keegan Burke (49:05)
This is important too. My case, I had a little bit of a different thing, but keep this in mind when it comes to evidence. We're sitting in the courtroom, it was early in our kind of preliminary hearings, and her attorney drops a folder on my attorney's lap and says when we go back to the courtroom we're entering this into evidence. My attorney opens it up, she gets very upset, I kind of am trying to see what it is. There are pictures of my ex, body lip.

Bloody nose, black eyes, scratches, scrapes, even a picture of like her knee surgery, right? So like the sutures on her knee and I kind of start to chuckle and she's like, this isn't funny. Like you have some explaining to do and this is a big problem for you. And I said, no, no, it's not. We're fine. She's like, you tell me what's going on. She wanted to fire me because now she feels like she's got an abuser on her hands. This law firm wanted nothing to do with that.

Robert (49:57)
Yeah.

Keegan Burke (50:01)
And so I reached out to my briefcase and I pulled out a phone and I said that those pictures, because I've seen them, are on this phone and they were taken on this phone. And the phone was an old phone of hers that I had and I knew that those pictures were taken before I had met her. So, this comes to evidence because I'm seeing more of this too where you've got photo shops, etc.

Robert (50:27)
Right.

Keegan Burke (50:28)
you need to ask and really push for the native files because you can associate metadata, time stamps, locations, etc. So what we did was we knew they were false, we walked into the courtroom, we let them enter them as evidence, we forced her, her mom, her sister, and one of her sisters is a cop, to testify to the validity and all they testified was that those injuries

are the result of him beating her up. that's early in our case. Guess what I do? I take the phone, I go get an IT imaged, I have that expert come in and testify to the metadata and he says, listen, this is the date these pictures were taken, this is the location, and that date happens to be before we met. Boom. Toast. Now, if you don't have that or you don't know enough to chase certain elements of evidence, and or

argue its admissibility, then those pictures hose me. I'm never seeing these again.

Robert (51:31)
yeah.

that happens so often. You hear that from so unfortunately from so many people where that happens. All right. So not I'm not accusing your ex of this, but let's say there was your your divorcing somebody where there's a personality disorder, whether it's narcissism, borderline personality, borderline personality disorder.

Keegan Burke (51:35)
all the time.

Hmm.

Robert (51:59)
whatever it may be. And again, I'm not accusing your ex with this, but you hear that a lot where there are false allegations. There are, you know, a lot of these things.

What do you do? mean, because that can be just horrendous on a guy, horrible on a guy.

Keegan Burke (52:21)
Yeah, so, and same thing, I've talked about this a couple times. I'm going to preface it with this. Not everyone has a personality disorder, and certainly not everybody that social media would like you to believe has a personality disorder, or, and or, everyone has a personality disorder. And so, I think though,

Robert (52:37)
Right. Right.

Keegan Burke (52:48)
That sort of for men, one of those things, and this is a preface, I'll get into how you handle it, is a false flag. It is too easy of an out or an excuse to associate what's happening to a personality disorder. And the reality is this, is your ex a pain in the butt.

Is she confrontational, argumentative, problematic, manipulative? All the things, The system, the process is literally designed to create friction, right? So will they present some behavior that could be associated with that? Yes. Are they clinically diagnosable? I would argue probably not. Now, I could be convinced that everybody is nuts.

and or nobody is nuts but a few of us. But I'm going to err on the side that it's probably less likely that they have a personality disorder and more likely that you've just got a problem that you need to navigate effectively. Now, if they are nuts,

you should get the clinical, yes, yes, sorry. If they have a personality disorder and it's clinically diagnosed, you should get your own professional psychologist to provide the proper guidance on how to navigate that personality disorder. So again, back to accountability. Don't try to go at that on your own, right?

Robert (53:52)
And by that you mean they have a personality disorder. Okay, okay.

Keegan Burke (54:20)
And I had a really great person give me this advice way back and it was, you you can't reason with somebody who's unreasonable based on that personality disorder. So don't even try. Like that, you're not going to get the response that you'd get from nine out of the ten people. That one person's going to respond in their own way. Get the professional, give you the guidance so that you can navigate that response mechanism and process. That's one.

Two, if you truly believe that the person that you're going up against has some clinical diagnosis that just hasn't been diagnosed, then you can and should pursue getting that diagnosis, get that evaluation. I will tell you, it is much harder than people will lead you to believe to get that diagnosis. know, psychologists, the system is biased, they'll explain it away.

I'll give you an example. In one of our 730 evaluations, we had those psychological evaluations. In one of the tests, she came back and the answers are measured in truthfulness. And so you get a truthful score. My ex failed that truth score completely. Every answer was dishonest. The finding was dishonest. The footnote in the report, she was trying to put her best foot forward.

and therefore those answers are acceptable because she wanted to put the best foot forward. Meanwhile, all my answers are truthful, but I'm not having a problematic answer. So it's just that's why I'm not necessarily jumping on the evaluation piece, but generally speaking, the way you navigate personality disorders is disengagement, setting boundaries,

Managing yourself so you stay even keeled you don't take the bait you don't get into the weeds of their delusions Patience in the moments, right? So like you have the broad picture patients, and then you have the momentary patients the intraday don't Play their game it is and listen I admit it it's much harder to do and Much easier to say but for most personality disorders

Boundary is disengagement and your own self-management and patience is going to give you the best ability to navigate that problem because here's the advantage you've got in divorce. Nothing happens next day. You can always take what happened, take a message, I say always, most of the time, and decide how to respond to that effectively. And by the way, any response

You're responding to the opposing side, but you're really responding to the court. Once the court's involved, you're... So, it's really, you're playing a double-edged sword here. Is the response really necessary to her, or is it to the court?

Robert (57:22)
Yeah, that's a good point too. Cause I think everybody needs to, it needs to remember that any response you give anything written verbal verbal, should assume that it's going to be recorded. Any response. You should be okay with that being read by the court. So I think so many people forget that at times, you know, and, and that with the, you know, the personality disorder, um, you know, I was talking to a

family law attorney not too long ago. And he was telling me, I just asked him, we were having a drink. I'm like, how many, how many people come in when they're first meeting with you and say that, my ex or my husband or my wife is a narcissist. And he started laughing. He's like, my gosh. He said, I thought it was bad 10 years ago. He said, it is in the nineties, the percentile. said every one of them.

Keegan Burke (58:07)
You

Robert (58:20)
You know, and his thing, he was talking about how he always tells them, look, don't bring that up in court. Let the court figure that out. You know, it's, it's managing it yourself and don't do not bring up those allegations. The court doesn't want to hear that they can figure it out themselves. And you just present the evidence. And I think even Erin Shaden, who was on here, she's been on here a few times. She was talking about it. Like let the court figure that out. You just present the evidence.

Keegan Burke (58:28)
Totally true. I totally agree.

Yep. You bring the sack.

Robert (58:48)
with that, but

again, it's not easy though, when you're on that end and, you know, cause I know a big thing with, with, Narcissism, Dr. Salerno was on here and he was talking about, you know, it's projections, projections and lies and, know, and that's tough because, know, they're projecting, you know, their mental illness, onto you. And you want to, know, you want to.

snap back and no, it's not me, it's you and blah, blah, blah, blah. You're the narcissist. You're the, you know, you're the one with this. you know, it's tough. It's very tough.

Keegan Burke (59:24)
Yeah, no it is, it is. It's not an easy thing to do.

Robert (59:28)
I mean, I've known guys

that have even gone so far as been evaluated themselves, had themselves evaluated. So when they were going to court, they actually had, you know, a letter from their psychiatrists, psychologists, whatever it may be, stating, you know, that, they've evaluated and they do not possess this and it's,

Keegan Burke (59:52)
fantastic example of doing the extra thing to preemptively navigate that type of thing. mean, we're all, like you said, it's such a frequent accusation or allegation today. What a great way to go about it.

Robert (1:00:08)
Yeah. All right. I have taken up a lot of your time and you were just a wealth of information. And I literally could probably talk to you for another hour. And I don't think this is going to be our last conversation. If you're okay with that, advice for dads, what, what, do you have?

Keegan Burke (1:00:22)
Absolutely.

Yeah, advice. I would say get a strategy. I don't care if that's with me or not. Build a plan. Not having a plan is a plan to fail. Identify where you're weak, where you're strong. Evaluate your situation, right? There are some things that just aren't going to be in your favor.

accept that and focus on the things that are in your favor or how do you turn the tides on the things that are working against you? Is it short, mid, long term? Where in the process can you have that happen? That helps you kind of start to create this like persistent sustainability and commitment and dedication, right? It's like lose a couple battles, win the war. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And so really I think number one is get a strategy, do it now if you're in the process, fine.

Reset the table step back look at your situation. Where are you going? If you're in a marriage or a relationship? Is that where you're gonna be and if you want to get out? Start planning don't just jump out right. It's like a spring. Don't just jump off and it's gonna explode So planning and prioritizing is associated with that strategy I think too. This is something that I Have had to have a couple conversation with folks and that's make some really tough decisions

I think that some men feel obligated to fight and they don't necessarily want to. They don't want it. They're okay with the outcome, but they fight anyway and they spend a ton of money. Maybe it's ultimately it's the kids money, right? you know, it's it. And so you create animosity and no kid wants a high conflict divorce. So don't just fight to fight. Have a legitimate reflection on where you are and what do you want.

Are you okay with being a weekend alternating weekend parent? And that's okay. Like that, if that's okay with you, that's okay. It has to be okay with everybody else. If that's where you're gonna go, then do it. Don't fight for 50-50 if you're gonna get $100,000 in and go, I just don't wanna do it anymore. Also, don't get into the fight if you're gonna run out money or run out of steam halfway through. That happens all the time.

Robert (1:02:39)
Sure,

yeah.

Keegan Burke (1:02:42)
And then the other thing too is really a close look at are you ready for the road ahead? Do you really know what divorce means? And that's having a conversation with somebody who understands that it is a marathon, maybe an Ironman, and you just have to be ready to take some licks along the way.

And so I think that's my advice is really kind of do a gut check on everything, whether you're along the way, whether you're preparing for it. It doesn't matter where you are. Family law is dynamic.

Robert (1:03:20)
Yeah, that's such great advice. is such great advice. Keegan, I appreciate you coming on and I definitely want to have you back.

Keegan Burke (1:03:28)
Cool, I would love to.

Robert (1:03:29)
Man certainly do, I literally could talk to you for another hour and, but I appreciate you taking time out to come on and we'll certainly do this again. I hate you, I hate you've had to go through what you've gone through to gain this knowledge, to gain this experience, but I do appreciate you sharing it with other people. How can people find you?

Keegan Burke (1:03:40)
Okay.

Yeah,

yeah, great question. So I am on Instagram, TikTok for as long as it's here with us. Just fired up YouTube and Facebook. All are at Divorceology. So D-I-V-O-R-C-E-O-L-O-G-Y.

Robert (1:04:01)
Ha

Keegan Burke (1:04:14)
And just on that note, on the social media front, I try to post, you know, short clips on topics that are most relevant to us as men in the process. So it's a great place to kind of go through and see some of the hot topics and hot considerations. have, I'm at DivorcelogyDad.com. I've got, so like on my website, I've got a kind of very basic guide. Lots of people have no clue.

Robert (1:04:26)
Yeah it is.

Keegan Burke (1:04:41)
What's involved in divorce? What are the primary pillars of things to consider and think about? It's not, like it does not go deep into the weeds. That's not the purpose of the guide. It's to kind of level set and have you go, okay, this is where things are at and this is what's gonna matter to me. It's free. My website, just go download it. And then my email is divorcelogydad at gmail.com. Reach out.

ping me, I do end up giving my phone number out, you know, once conversations start going, we figure out where you need to go and what you need. But I make myself available. This for me is a passion thing. And I think that we as men can do a lot better job.

Robert (1:05:23)
Man, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Definitely reach out, look at your page. And again, thank you for coming on, definitely.

Keegan Burke (1:05:32)
Thank

you, would love to come back and I really appreciate the time and what you're doing.

Robert (1:05:36)
Well, you

will, you will definitely have you back on. Hey, and thank you all for listening to the dad to dad's podcast. You can find us on Apple or Spotify as well as most, um, uh, podcast platforms. Uh, you can also find us on Instagram as well as YouTube. Do not forget to hit the like and subscribe button and feel free to, to, uh, leave a comment. I do read every comment and I enjoy about 95 % of them.

I love receiving the advice as well as the subjects as well. So again, thank you all for listening and we will talk to you next time.