Breaking the Cycle of Mother Enmeshment & What a Healthy Mother/Son Relationship Actually Looks Like: Dr. Daniel David

Men's mental health expert, Dr. Daniel David, discusses mother enmeshment and its negative impact on young men's mental health and development. He emphasizes the importance of healthy mother-son relationships, the need for independence, and the role of fathers in shaping male identity. Dr. David also introduces his coaching program aimed at helping mothers understand their sons' developmental stages and how to facilitate their growth into confident young men.

Takeaways

• Mother enmeshment can hinder a son's independence.
• Healthy mother-son relationships are crucial for development.
• Mothers often struggle with letting go of their sons.
• Boys need to take risks to build resilience.
• Fathers play a vital role in male development.
• Mothers should avoid over-communicating with their sons.
• Setting boundaries is essential for healthy relationships.
• Moms need to affirm their sons' fathers.
• Coaching can help mothers navigate their sons' growth.
• Understanding developmental stages can improve mother-son dynamics.

How to find Dr. David Daniel
www.atlantamenscounselingtherapy.com
or email Dr. David at MensLifeInstitute@gmail.com

Dad to Dads Podcast on IG www.instagram.com/dadtodads

Transcript

Robert (00:00)
Everyone and welcome back to the dad to dad's podcast and welcome to men's mental health expert, Dr. Daniel David.

Dr Daniel P. David (00:09)
Well, it's good to be back. I've been watching your videos and your other guests and it's pretty impressive what you're doing there. you know, I appreciate your work and your outreach, especially to men and men in need. so it's Good to see you.

Robert (00:25)
Well, I'm so happy you're on and you've been on a couple other times and you're always extremely well received. You're, you know, an old friend, you've been helpful to me and we've got a good relationship and. know, there's been a few topics I want to kind of jump in. There's been one topic I really want to talk to you about that you have in the past, that I've gotten, I've received a lot of.

feedback, a lot of comments about a lot of questions. and so we'll do it. Here we go. Mother enmeshment. I really want you to define it. Like what is it? What does it look like? Why is it harmful? And just give me the rundown or give us the rundown on mother enmeshment.

Dr Daniel P. David (01:03)
So it's interesting and it is a topic that I think is pertinent for today because we live in a society where now lots of roles are changing and parents don't know where they belong and how to operate in this new world. as you know, I've been working with young men for over 30 years and did a lot of my work originally in New York.

New York City and the streets. then when I became a therapist, I started reaching out to men. And, you know, this common theme of independence and self identity. And then, of course, going out into the world and becoming a man,

These are common themes that men bring into therapy and want to talk about. And there's always a snag somewhere. often when I'm talking to guys, When they talk about relationships, then they start talking about the trouble with their relationships and

And then, you know, when we kind of dig deeper into their relationships with a girlfriend or wife, and we talk about the struggle there, it starts to open up the understanding that, okay, where did you get this pattern from this, you know, style of relationship?

And of course, our family relationship is extremely important. so, how is our relationship with our dad? How is our relationship with our mother? And so the topic of mother-son relationship and enmeshment comes up because these guys are dealing with

girlfriends or wives and they're struggling to understand. Okay, how do I treat a woman? How do I how do I have a better relationship with my girlfriend? How do I have a better relationship with my wife, right? And and

Robert (02:48)
Probably how

to set boundaries as well.

Dr Daniel P. David (02:50)
Right, exactly. Setting boundaries is a big one. Being able to say no or being able to set healthy boundaries within the context of a relationship. There's often a struggle there with men who feel a lot of guilt and shame. And then when I ask them about, well, why is it difficult to set a boundary? We talk about the relationship with their mothers and

you know.

One of my things is I'm never here to bash mothers, but I do understand. you know, as a therapist and a person who's done a lot of research and reading and understanding and talking with people for all these years, it's a very important relationship, the mother-son relationship. And so, you know, and when it goes well and when it's healthy, these young men grow up and they

succeed in life because they feel that ability to move on and move into the next relationship with that significant other, potential wife. And you see the transition, you don't see what you see is a mother who's accepting and understanding of her son's growth into adulthood and then

establishing a new relationship. But when it goes bad, it can go really bad. know, know, enmeshment basically is where the the son there's a difficulty in the increasing of independence of the son. So the moving away from the mom. So, you know, one of the things that I see is that guys will struggle with making decisions independently, especially when they're younger, checking in with mom.

mom checking in, over checking in. And, you know, I look at it, especially with high school students, And I can, I can feel the anxiety that mothers are having because they're, they're over communicating with their sons. They're over structuring their sons.

They got to know what's going on. You know, I had a young man one time come to me and, or I had a mother come to me one time and she said, I went into my son's room and he had a hundred Post-it notes all around the room that said Don't touch, don't touch, don't touch, don't touch. He had put everything, all these stickers on everything in his room. And she said, I just went in to clean his room.

And, I said, have you thought about letting him clean his room? Yeah. And, and expecting him to clean it. And she was a bit horrified, like, well, what am I supposed to do here? You know? And I said, don't touch. so, so she, she eventually got the message that, okay, he's, he's wanting some independence. He wanted wanting some privacy. He was, and, that was very hard.

Robert (05:20)
Let him clean his room, yeah.

Yeah.

Dr Daniel P. David (05:41)
with her at that point.

Robert (05:41)
So is it basically where,

is it basically where the mom doesn't let the son grow up, where she is maybe putting her emotions, her feelings on the son? Is she using him as kind of a pseudo spouse? Is she, you know, really just hovering him so much? there any of those accurate or is it all?

Dr Daniel P. David (06:05)
Well, I would say all of the above. the biggest thing that I find is that mothers have a lot of anxiety around their sons, not succeeding and almost feeling like they have to guide and constantly be in touch with their connected to their sons in order to make their son successful. So a lot of mothers, will have, anxiety and they don't realize that they have anxiety. So how do they manage their anxiety? Will they over communicate with their sons?

Right. And they, they have this need for, information, constant information. they're checking in, they're over-communicating. As I said, they're, managing their, you know, their, their schedules are, you know, especially when we're talking about like the teenage years. and you know, understandably it's important for any parent to be careful and watch over your kids, but

At some point we have to realize that the whole point of adolescence is to develop independence, which is separation from us, right? So as adults, as parents, we have to acknowledge that our kid will eventually grow up and leave us and go out and establish a life for themselves in the world that they live in. And we've got to transition as well.

The enmeshment is this fear of letting go. It's a fear of the distancing between mom and son, right? And then, know, and of course the emotional attachment is there. and I've talked to moms about this, cause they do a lot of grieving around this topic, you know.

I feel him pulling away. He doesn't want to communicate with me as much. He doesn't want to talk to me as much. I feel like he doesn't love me, doesn't care for me. And, you know, and, so the mom starts to feel the pull away and it's a necessary pull away where the son has to distance himself from his mom. And, in reality for boys, they really need to transition more towards their fathers because they're developing their identity as men.

And hopefully fathers are a good role model. So, you know, they should transition to their dads and spend a bit more time around their dads. we, you know, I deal with guys who come into therapy and they have what's called father hunger because they didn't transition to their dads and, and, they, they didn't have a dad to transition to. And a lot of times mothers feel that too. And then they overcompensate for.

Robert (08:14)
Right.

Dr Daniel P. David (08:36)
you know, the lack of a father in the family or lack of, you know, a male role model. But, you know, coming back to mothers, they, they, they developed this anxiety. A lot of times they're worried, overly worried. And then I get, you know, I'll get messages from mothers about their sons. And, you know, and that's sort of why, you know, we're here today because, you know, I think that mothers are needing some

you know, help in this field to understand, okay, you know, what are you worried about? Let's talk about what you're worried about. What are you afraid of? What are some of the things that you're going through and hearing mothers out so that they can kind of release and let go of their sons gradually over time and, know, and help facilitate their son's development into manhood, right?

Robert (09:11)
Yeah.

is it more so when there's maybe the mom, you know, is a single mother or is it just kind of across the board?

Dr Daniel P. David (09:34)
You know, I think it happens a lot more.

It's more prevalent in the single parent home, but I've also seen it where the father's at home and, yet mom is struggling with that emotional connection with her son and you know, and the fear of letting go is, is really, you know, strong. So, you know, ultimately, it causes down the road, it causes problems with boys growing up into and transitioning into manhood.

A lot of times, these guys will have girlfriends that say, or even wives will say, his mother drives me crazy. Well, that's an age old argument and problem, right? But if mom doesn't realize that, okay, she's not the primary female in his life anymore, and she has to step back and allow another female to come in, sometimes women will say,

Robert (10:20)
Right.

and get that attention

that she was receiving.

Dr Daniel P. David (10:30)
Right, exactly. then, you know, a lot of women will say, I feel like I'm in competition. and, know, and sometimes mothers will say, you know, I feel betrayed by my son, which is really an indication of that emotional need. Like he's there for me and I can't, I don't want to share him with anyone. And of course, you know, then I have to ask, okay, well, what's going on in.

the mother-father relationship that she's not getting something from her husband, right? So she's turning to her son for emotional connection. And he's my confidant and he's the one who I share my problems with and talk to. And it's just, it's not healthy and it's very inappropriate.

Robert (11:03)
Right.

When you're saying this, know this isn't always the case. A lot of this seems like there could be on the mother's end or at times where there, let's just put it this way. At times there would be a personality disorder. Maybe it's narcissism, whatever it may be. Do you see where it's more prevalent when that mother has that or not?

Dr Daniel P. David (11:36)
Well, with certain personality disorders, it's always a disturbance of the identity. And so, especially in borderline personality disorder, the fear of abandonment is prevalent. so mothers then can, I'm not saying that that's always the case, but mothers can become very attached to their children and get their emotional needs met through their children rather than through their spouse or

partner, right? And so, yeah, I think it has a prevalence there. But even with healthy moms, mean, basically mothers who don't have any serious psychological problems, it still can be very difficult to watch our sons transition from boyhood to manhood. there's a lot of fear there.

And when we talk about like male initiation and male development, it's, in the realm of danger. Okay. You know, because we've got to help our young men build an identity, build confidence and, and, and take risk. Right. And mothers, mothers don't take risks with their kids. You ever see a mom throw her child up into the air? No. Right.

Robert (12:51)
It's that's true. That's, that's very true. That's very true.

So is it, is it in other cases, is it more of just maybe the mom's just over loving and over nurturing and she's wanting to keep little Johnny little Johnny. And, and she's so afraid where I think, and we'll go into your, your course and what you're doing, your coaching, what you're doing, but more of letting them know.

It's okay to let them go, let them go. They need to fall down. They need to experience heartbreak. They need to, you know, do these things because they're a guy, they're a man. That's part of it. Is that pretty accurate?

Dr Daniel P. David (13:30)
You know,

yes, that is.

so mothers, you know, knowing that their little boy is no longer going to stay a little boy, he actually has to grow up and become a man. You know, a lot of times in my research with resilience psychology and what makes some boys and young men more resilient than others is that it's the risk taking and the confidence that comes from that risk taking and

you know, achieving, right? But if we over, and we're seeing this with young men today, I mean, when we look at society, we can see some real problems with young men being able to go out into the world and establish a life and establish an identity. almost, you know, it's a meme now of young men in their parents' basements, you know, on the computer, you know, not wanting to get, go out. So,

Robert (14:24)
Very, yeah.

Dr Daniel P. David (14:27)
The danger here with mothers is that, you know, the love is, it's love. But at some point we have to allow our kids to fail. We have to allow ourselves, our kids to struggle. We have to allow our kids to take risks and, and mess it up and let them fall down. Yeah. Absolutely. And.

Robert (14:48)
You have to love them enough to let them go. Yeah, you have to love them enough to let them go.

Dr Daniel P. David (14:54)
When we don't do that, that's when we start to harm them.

So we have to, as parents at some stage, allow our kids to be uncomfortable, allow them to blow it at school, to have a problem. Right. Because yes, because we're teaching them consequences. We're teaching them how to fall down and get back up. So we talk about in resilience, bounce back and, you know, measuring

Robert (15:08)
consequences.

Dr Daniel P. David (15:21)
bounce back with boys is really important. It's like, I have guys who get caught up in their emotions and then they just are, you know, drowning in their emotions. so when they get down, they stay down and, you know, and, you know, and, and you can see the, the, the, the need there for them to be able to take on a challenge and feel like, okay, well, even if I don't win, I'm going to compete.

Right? Even if I don't succeed, I'm willing to fail, but I'm going to try and I'm going to push myself. Right? That's that internal resilience that innate need to survive and to overcome. but our society has done really a lot to, I would say, disable young men and in, in, you know, we, we have to, we have to understand that, in our world right now,

Robert (15:47)
Yeah.

⁓ I agree.

Dr Daniel P. David (16:10)
based on the sort of anti-male and anti-masculinity stances, we now have boys who don't understand what they need to do because they're told that that's toxic or bad. so they say, well, what should I do? And of course, if they don't,

have that push like, okay, well, here's what you need to do. At 18, it's like you have to go out in the world, you have to be out. But really at 18, I think there are...

Robert (16:42)
Yeah, at

least by the time you graduate from college and you know, you're right. was talking to somebody the other day and she was telling me, she said, you would not believe the number of young men that are between the ages of 24 and 29 that literally are still living at home. And they're proud that

Dr Daniel P. David (16:47)
Right.

Right.

Robert (17:09)
They're now living in the basement of their parents' home where they have, you know, independent access in and out. Like it's a badge of honor and not getting out of there where I remat, I'm mad. I remember, you know, college, it was like, I'm on my own. I'm not going back. And it's almost this longing for them. And she was also telling me that why would they leave when their beds getting made, their clothes are getting washed.

They have three hot meals. And I talked about not too long ago. We had, I had an author on, Rob Finley. We were talking about his book, Hey dad. And it is this failure to launch. It really is. with, with these young men and we're doing, we, the parents at times, or some parents are doing a disservice to these kids. And that's, it's scary.

Dr Daniel P. David (17:48)
Mm-hmm.

Robert (18:00)
It is really scary.

Dr Daniel P. David (18:01)
we're creating dependency and reliance and when at a time, especially around, I would say around 14, 15 years old, where the brain is really changing in a young man and, you know, they start to get into this rebellion stage. There's, you know, I do an assessment with men and I ask, you know, there's a thing called failed rebellion and

did you rebel? The question is, did you rebel? If you did, did you succeed? And often I get, I get marks on the assessment where they say that they did not succeed. And so, you know, and so the rebellion stage is really necessary, but mothers feel that as, as almost a betrayal to them or a rejection of them. And I, and I try to encourage mothers to think in terms of

This isn't a rejection of you. It's a movement towards independence. It's natural for him to resist you. ⁓

Robert (19:11)
And it's, it's

a short window too. mean, that's not, you know, they want their independence, but then I would think at the end, however many years goes by, it's not for, it's not a forever thing. Then you have that wonderful mother son relationship that so many people crave and admire when they see that it's letting them go where they don't have that.

Dr Daniel P. David (19:29)
Hmm.

Robert (19:36)
built up resentment. I always had to look after my mom. it's always had to be there for my mom. They don't have that. you know, they don't, they're, they're not experiencing that. And it's a true love and compassion for this lady that not only their mother who not only raised them and cared for them and nurtured them, but then also gave them that independence to let them go explore and become a man.

Dr Daniel P. David (19:57)
Mm-hmm.

Robert (19:58)
And now they're back with that love and appreciation and really kind of given that caring and loving back that she was given to them. Correct.

Dr Daniel P. David (20:08)
Yes. mean, here's the thing. If mothers understand, and this is part of the work that I do with mothers is that, you know, there are these five basic stages of male development at that point in their lives. It's separation, right? Needing to separate. Then it's exploration, adventure and purpose go, go all in step two is like kid. The boy needs to go out and explore the world. Take his

hero's journey, go on an adventure, right? Find himself and then really figure out, okay, what kind of purpose do I want in my life? And, you how am I going to live my life? Then it goes from identity at home to identity in the world. How do I see myself in the world? And for boys, especially, you know, we're sort of by culture, by genetics, we have to go out. We have to...

go out into the world and we have to establish our own identity within the world. And then, and then it's about responsibility. It's about showing up for ourselves, showing up for others. It's about, you know, building a life that is worth living and that requires responsibility. And then eventually it's ultimately the foundation. They establish a foundation. They establish maybe a family of their own, new relationships and family of their own and their own.

identity with, know, within their own careers. So they're establishing a foundation and I tell mothers, you're right. I agree with you that it's not forever, but it, but it feels so, you know, scary for a lot of moms because they feel like, okay, well that's, that's really risky. You know, my son is leaving me number one and number two, he's going out into the dangerous world. Right. But

I've seen guys go through this really well. mean, in a healthy way, they've gone through these stages of male development and then they come back, like you said, to their moms and have Christmas or Hanukkah and everything's fine. Right? It's usually when moms don't want to let go that the separation doesn't happen. And then it impedes and stops the exploration of self out in the world. And it stops the

risk-taking, is the adventure part, it stops the ability to establish not only an identity in the world, but a purpose in the world because, you know, I'm still at home. I'm still in, in, you know, have this home identity, right? And then, and then of course they don't, they don't establish a foundation. So, you know, so I tell moms, they have a lot of power. They just don't realize it.

Robert (22:26)
Right.

Right.

Dr Daniel P. David (22:50)
Okay. And of course, you know, we should include, uh, this is about moms, but we should include dads in this because a healthy balance for any young man is to have a good relationship with his mom and his dad. And, know, and men just raise kids differently than mothers do. It's not to say they're bad in any way. It's a balance. It's okay. You know, I always have, I've always said that.

Mother love is nurture love and father love is acceptance love. Mothers can always say come home for Christmas or Hanukkah, right? And dad say go out in the world and overcome, achieve, right? And that's our push. And so I did this research a long, long time ago and it was a question about whether a mom, what about moms?

and dads after kids graduate. the research showed that dads were more worried about their kids because we worry about our kids and how they will succeed in life and ⁓ establish a foundation of their own, right? So I tell moms, you can be instrumental in helping your son to be successful in the world, but you're gonna have to go through these stages and it's gonna be painful.

Robert (23:53)
Yeah, yeah.

Dr Daniel P. David (24:07)
sometimes going to feel like your son is dying because the whole male initiation understanding is the boy dies in the wilderness and the man comes out, the young man, and now he has to establish himself and moms have a hard time letting go of their little boy. I try to be hopeful.

Robert (24:29)
And let me say this to it's

yeah, no, it's not just the, boys also are when they become young men. It's not just the moms they leave. They eventually leave their dads too. Like they eventually want that independence from their father too. So it's not, you know, just the mother and son. It's also the dad too. But I, I do think dads, of course, being the same sex, they understand that.

Probably a little bit more or a lot more that he needs this. He needs to go off on his own He needs to you know, move away go to college and do this. it's fine. He hasn't called in two weeks. That's fine. He's okay You know something I wanted I want to go into what you're offering with your coaching but before that Well two questions one. I want to go back when you look at these

Dr Daniel P. David (24:55)
Mm-hmm.

Robert (25:22)
the signs where there's been enmeshment.

Dr Daniel P. David (25:25)
Mm-hmm.

Robert (25:26)
Can you go deeper into how that affects their personal relationships? What characteristics you might see of those boys or those young men in, whether it's romantic relationships, what their personal relationships, can you go into that a little bit more?

Dr Daniel P. David (25:42)
Yeah. What I observe in young men who are struggling with this topic and, you know, growing up and really trying to self initiate, cause we don't have that much in society to help young men transition from boyhood to manhood. I see a, I see a real problem with passivity is a big one where, you know,

What do we want? We want to be seen as good guys. We want to be seen as good boys. Right. And so we become very passive. We, we, we, you I see a lot of people pleasing behaviors, a lot of passivity. So fear of being assertive, fear of standing up for our needs and speaking out and saying what we need and want and desire. a lot of times I'm, I'm as a coaching.

you know, for the for the young men, I'm like, OK, all right. Well, how can we learn? How can we help you to become more assertive in the world? Right. And a lot of times we get that modeled from our dads. But, you know, I've watched guys from several different generations now. And, know, we have millennials and then we have Gen Gen X. Right. And then we have boomers. Right. And so.

What I've seen is in the last, millennials especially, and then in Gen X, the same sort of dynamic going on where the father of these Gen Z boys were just as passive as, I mean, struggled with their own relationship with their mothers.

Robert (27:14)
Yeah, yeah,

Dr Daniel P. David (27:15)
You know, I've

Robert (27:15)
makes sense.

Dr Daniel P. David (27:16)
had guys say to me, I'm coming to you because I don't know how to be a man. Or, I'm coming to you because I-

Robert (27:20)
Yeah. You can't you can't

be I just I just had somebody on here that said something very similar to that. Demarius Bilbo when he was talking about you can't give something you don't you can't give something you don't have and it's hard for you to be something you've never seen. And I think that's very true.

Dr Daniel P. David (27:37)
Exactly.

Right. And so now I have boys that young men that I will ask, okay, well, how did your dad act? You know, what, did he say? How did he respond? And, you know, and you'll say, well, he's quiet or, he doesn't say much or he never, you know, argues with her. just, you know, tries to make her happy. And this is the model that, you know, these boys see, but

When you go out into the world, you can't make everybody happy. When you go out in the world, you can't be passive because people will run over you. When you go out in the world, you got to be bold. have to be willing to take some risk in life. You have to be able to say, you know, I'm here, I'm here to, you know, take on the challenges and that takes courage. so we're, know, but they don't, they didn't have any role models. So when they come to see me,

I'm almost like having to be out on the basketball court, yelling at them like, hey, make this shot, take this shot. You know what I mean? So it's a real coaching of these young men to go out in the world, explore, be willing to fail, and fall down and get back up and be assertive. So a lot of times I'm working with these young men on assertiveness training, how to be assertive in the world.

you know, how to speak up, to, you know, say no, how to set boundaries. These are all issues that come from that early childhood experience, not with just mom, but also dad. But of course they're male and they need to learn how to do it. And a lot of men are afraid. you know, what I get with young men and when they talk about being assertive, they're afraid of hurting others.

Robert (29:13)
Sure.

Dr Daniel P. David (29:21)
They're afraid of, of, letting people down. They're afraid of being too aggressive, or coming off as aggressive when I'm saying, well, you you're quite passive, you know, when I'm actually looking at their lives, they're quite passive, but, but they're afraid that they're going to offend someone. They're afraid that they're going to come across as aggressive. So, even in the dating world, sometimes I have to say, okay, well,

All right. Where'd you learn this relationship with women? Well, of course we go back to the mother son relationship. and I, and I will tell them, you're not a hunter. You're friend zoning every girl that you meet. No wonder you can't get a date. Right. Because you're, you, you, you were raised by a mom and two sisters and you're, you're friend zoning them instead of pursuing them. Right. And

Robert (30:11)
Yeah,

Dr Daniel P. David (30:11)
And that kind of blows their mind. They're like, what do mean?

Robert (30:12)
yeah. And probably on who they select as well, who they go after too. I imagine, you know, they, go after somebody where

They're trying to heal them, fix them, there for them. might be that somebody that might be a little more domineering, that same role that they saw before where you have that, where it puts them into the caregiver the whole time. Is that pretty accurate? That's interesting.

Dr Daniel P. David (30:40)
Yes. Yeah. Glover wrote

Glover wrote the book, no more Mr. Nice guy. And I think he talks about the covert contracts that these young men, get into, you know, well, if, if I'm nice to you, will you love me? If I do nice things for you, will you, will you care for me? And so, men get into that sort of role. It's very people pleasing, passive.

You know, I'm going to love her. I'm going to, I'm going to treat her well. And of course those are honorable things to pursue, but it's a, it's a covert contract in that they really struggle with saying, Hey, I need, I need more affection. I need more connection. You know, a lot of times,

Robert (31:22)
but

you shouldn't do that to get love. That should come from a place of love, right? And not for you to be able to receive love. And that's where it kind of misses the mark. All right, What does a healthy mother-son relationship look like?

Dr Daniel P. David (31:28)
Exactly, exactly. Yes, very much so.

Well, one thing that mothers will go through is a transition and a change. And they have to go from being the mother to the boy to being the mother of the man. And so they now establish a level of respect and space between them. And again, this is the hard part. It's because of the fear, right?

I've seen moms grieve over this, but when it's done well, the healthy mother-son dynamic looks more like, it's not a check-in every day. It's check-in once in a while and, mom, I'm thinking of you once in a while. It's not, hey, mom, I need to talk to you and mom needing to talk to the son. So she's less preoccupied. I've even said to moms, you got to go find something to do.

Right. Every time you want to call your son or text him, think of something else, distract yourself and go and try to do something else. Now. Yeah. The, the, occasional, you know, a text is great and, and the back and forth is fine. But if it's a constant nervousness over where is he, what's he doing and how is he, how is he, then it becomes unhealthy. So that's the first part. It's the distancing.

and allowing him to be the man that he's intended to be. then what I also emphasize is clear emotional boundaries. And a lot of times mothers don't realize it that there may be their own level of unhappiness and maybe their own need for love and affection coming from a partner isn't there. They're not being

that that need isn't being met. So what do they do? They can tend to turn to their children. And often boys are the target because that's that sort of kind of relationship, female male relationship. And so in a healthy relationship, there are clear emotional boundaries where she goes to get her needs met appropriately, either by her husband or someone else and not turn to her son as her confidant or

you know, her, her emotional soulmate. I saw a text today cause a young, man sent me this and, it's, it was pretty, shocking to me. mean, or upsetting to me because I saw that where this, person had written that, there's nothing wrong with you being a soulmate to your son. And I'm like, I literally cringed. So

So,

and there are these books which I have written some really bad reviews ⁓ on Amazon, you know, about the mother's love is forever and you will always be my little boy. And they just don't realize the harm that they're doing. of course they're not intentionally trying to harm their kids, right? But they are creating some real problems. So,

Robert (34:17)
Ha

Yeah.

Dr Daniel P. David (34:37)
Again, it's that separation, that emotional detachment, disconnect, know, allowing their sons to go out into the world and have find their own identity and, you know, and not being overly invested in how they identify or grow. So, so yeah, so one thing that I find with healthier guys is that

They have a good relationship with their moms because they separated, they rebelled, they separated, they went off into the world, they achieved what they needed to achieve. And then they came back and mom was healthy and they were healthy. And so they have a good back and forth discourse and no problem, right? It's the ones that really fail to launch. Those are the ones that struggle.

Robert (35:20)
Are you, but you're seeing more of that, right? And so I would tend to think that mother and measurement is increasing, correct? And what, is ultimate? What do you think? Sure. There's probably not one thing, but what do you think is the cause of that? I mean, obviously there's books you were talking about on Amazon, but what, what is cause it what's driving

Dr Daniel P. David (35:28)
Right, yes.

I think for moms, a lot of times they don't know what to do. We don't have clear defined stages of development that parents are aware of until they come and see someone like me and I say, well, it's actually okay. He's normal. I was speaking to a mom a little while ago and I just said, I wanna tell you, first of all, you have a normal son. have an average teenage.

boy who wants to establish more independence and you're feeling the grieving of losing the little boy because your son is now transitioning. so, yeah, I think moms struggle with knowing what to do. And that's part in part why I do the work that I do with moms is, is to help them to understand, you know, the different stages of development. And when we're aware that

Hey, he's going to be a little bit rough. He's going to be irritable. He's going to be, you know, he's going to shoot down my ideas when we're aware of it, because that's a part of his, the stage that he's in. We can kind of depersonalize it and not make it about us. We, we, we accept that. Oh yeah. This is, this is something that I'm, I should expect. So I told this mother, said, he's 17. said, do you remember when he was two years old?

And she laughed. said, yeah, he's now 17 with the same mindset. You know, he, he's going to tell you, at every time he's going to say, no, don't touch this. Don't touch that. Like I said, with the guy with the a hundred posted notes, um, they said, don't touch. Right. And I, and I tried to encourage her to, I tried to encourage her to recognize that that's just part of what's happening in his brain. And it's not an attack on her.

Robert (37:09)
Yeah.

Do you, go ahead.

Yeah.

Dr Daniel P. David (37:31)
even though he's resisting her and she's feeling it.

Robert (37:35)
Do you think part of that increase could be on the reduction in community and meaning it's very well noted that men don't get together with other men as much anymore. They just don't, you don't have as many guys nights. don't have as many poker nights, whatever it is. Men just don't get together like they used to. Some of that was COVID some of it's technology.

you know, there's a lot of different things. And I wonder if that is with the moms too. And the relationships now are all very quick and kind of surface level over text and that type. And it's not getting together, whether it's, however they used to in the past, they're not getting together, discussing the issues that are maybe are going on and where somebody else says, yeah, my son did the same thing at that age. You just have to let them go.

You just have to let them go. It's hard. Do you think there's some of that as well?

Dr Daniel P. David (38:35)
I agree, I definitely agree because when children are, when a new mother has her first child, what does she do? She usually turns to her mother and maybe other women and say, what do I do? How do I change a diaper? And has a lot of support. And that's usually built in in having a baby.

you know, getting all the women together and talking about, know, what, do you need to do to, you know, to change a diaper or burp the baby, you know? but as kids get older, that part, part of support for mothers is not there.

And so this is where mothers struggle because, and this is where I come in sometimes to say, okay, these are normal things. And I want you to understand that it's going to feel very personal and it's going to be painful at times to let him go. But you know, he's got to move away from you and I'm, know, and, and we're going to have, we're going to support you in understanding every step of the way.

how to deal with him so that you're not pushing him away. Because a lot of times mothers, they feel that distance, they grab onto their kids and they say, okay, you're not going anywhere, right? And what does that necessitate from a boy? A harder push. And so when the boy pushes hard, then the mom gets even more anxious and grabs on harder. And then of course that's where the

Robert (39:58)
Yeah, yeah, of course.

Dr Daniel P. David (40:07)
the conflicts often happen. So if I'm on the sidelines, so to speak, or, you know, because they don't have community anymore where they can talk about raising their kids. So I'm on the sidelines saying, hey, it's okay, let him go, let him go out into the world. He has to experience these things because in reality we can really crush, you know,

The dangers here are we can impede, dampen or override their need for independence.

But if she overpowers him, the danger then is that she's actually undermining his need for independence. he, he, he's no longer, resilient. He, he has a lower stress tolerance. He'll have a lower risk tolerance as far as independence concerned.

And then, you know, he'll have a avoidant tendency. This is another problem in the relationships later on that I see with young men is that they become avoidant in their, they want a relationship with a woman, but as soon as it gets too emotionally overwhelming, they'll shut it down and break up with women. And that's when we, when we go back and we say, okay, well, where, did you learn this pattern? Where did you get this pattern?

It's because they'll talk about when their mothers were overwhelmed them with their mother's emotion and mom coming to the son and dumping her emotions on him and him not being able to escape. So he's not able to escape. And then of course, eventually he does. But then he goes out into the world and meets a woman and he starts to the same thing. He's like, okay, she's...

She's overwhelming me with her emotions. She's too dependent on me with her emotions. So he'll push away. And so then, you know, we, deal with a lot of avoidant strategies in relationships. So, so now not only is the mother son relationship difficult, but then it's, you know, any girlfriend that he has, or, know, eventually if he gets married, I've had guys on their wedding night.

Robert (41:58)
Interesting.

Dr Daniel P. David (42:15)
you know, go, I've made a fucking mistake and, you know, call me up from, you know, from across the world on their honeymoons going, you know, how do I get out of this? And it's just, that's how much the, the mother son dynamic can impact the relationship in the future. So we have guys who really struggle. I mean, it's, it's, it's incredible to watch

Robert (42:32)
that makes sense.

So you've been working for decades with men and you've noticed these issues of mother enmeshment and different things. Again, all this time while working with men now you have decided to tell me

Tell me more about you've decided basically to create a coaching for mothers, I guess, kind of going, I hate to say to the source, but it's somewhat kind of is where this potential, some of this, some of these potential issues are originating. but tell me about it. Like these, this coaching that you're having with, with mothers and.

Dr Daniel P. David (42:57)
Yes.

Robert (43:13)
I want to, what does it look like? Everything.

Dr Daniel P. David (43:15)
Well, it started with a colleague of mine, you know, encouraging me to talk to mothers more about their sons, especially their adolescent sons and young adult sons that are failing to launch, talking to these mothers about how to, you know, work with their sons. you know, and so I've had quite a few mothers reaching out to me. Their struggles are usually with, you know, why is my son

not, you know, why is he still stuck in the basement? You know, why is he not going out in the world? And, you know, what, you know, he's in college or he just, he won't go to college, you know. So moms are really worried about their sons and, and, and concerned. And then of course, you know, we have boys and young men who are highly depressed and anxious. And so moms get, you know, really concerned, rightfully so, you know, but,

Robert (44:06)
Mm-hmm, sure.

Dr Daniel P. David (44:08)
So I'll have moms trying to reach out to me and, you know, I'm not able to work with moms of clients, right? So I decided that, okay, well, I need to create a experience for mothers where I'm not, you know, their son's therapist. so it was through the encouragement of one of my colleagues who, you know, she's, you know,

seen some of the work that I've done with mothers and encouraged me to talk to moms. Mothers often struggle with, okay, my son seems to be really angry with me. How do I deal with that? My son constantly pushes back on everything I say or do. How do I deal with that? And a lot of times moms don't understand the

the difference in changes in the brain. They can see it obviously. They know that their kid is growing up, but they don't understand what that actually means. so through the coaching, they've been asking me, okay, well, what about this? Why does he do this? And it's a good opportunity for moms just to get their questions answered. I've been working with young men for so long and

I just felt like it was a right. Exactly. I've seen, or I've always felt that if I could just speak to the mom or get, you know, have some time with the mom, but of course these are my clients. Right. So I can't, right. But, but coming up with this coaching class, I can get to moms and talk to moms and answer their questions and help them to understand the different stages of male development.

Robert (45:17)
pretty much seen at all.

Dr Daniel P. David (45:43)
and the changes in the brain and then of course, knowing the how-to's of creating independent sons. so, I've started with a few moms already and what I'm seeing is good results with mothers actually feeling like they have a place to go to talk about their issues and their concerns and their fears. And then,

you know, they learned some new skills around strategies for dealing with their sons. And so I've seen some positive results there. and you know, I can imagine these young guys are going, whoever you're seeing, keep seeing him, because of course, you know, mom isn't, you know, constantly on them. So, so that, that was the, the purpose behind, starting this, coaching class with, mothers.

You know, what I'm, what I'm, my goal is, is to help the young men through their mothers, right? And to facilitate real independence, you know, try to, try to encourage mom and allow and, and help mom to understand that, you know, he needs to become independent. And, you know, so this will give him the, you know, this, their, their sons, a better opportunity for, you know, becoming independent and

Robert (46:35)
Right. Right.

Dr Daniel P. David (46:56)
finding their purpose in life and meaning in life and moving out from underneath their mom's protection and moving into the world that we all have to move into. Otherwise we'd all be in the basement right now.

Robert (47:08)
Yeah.

what are some of the other things you work on with the, with the moms?

Dr Daniel P. David (47:13)
Well, we do talk a lot about, what makes your son independent and, you know, the, the essence of what it means to be independent. And, and then we talk about growth goals, you know, boys have different growth goals. And, and then of course, when they reach, that, you know, eight year, 18 and older, then they, they become, you know, in, in the eyes of the law, obviously. And then of course, in.

reality, they're moving into young adulthood and you know, there are growth goals there that mothers need to be aware of and you know, and a lot of times it's just being patient with mothers and helping them to understand that their love isn't wrong. You know, they do, you know, and you know, I always try to encourage them, you know, they love their sons, but it's just a

a transition that has to happen within the mother, we have to stop looking at our kids as boys, young boys, or you're always be my little boy kind of mindset. And we have to start seeing them as adult men and be okay with that. So we talk about growth goals. We talk about relationship issues.

Robert (48:16)
down.

Dr Daniel P. David (48:23)
setting boundaries, how to set boundaries. We talk about the male brain and how it operates at different stages of life. And we talk about, you know, his independence and, and, and, and also how, should she get her needs met? Like I mentioned earlier, you know, if you have a temptation to reach out to your son, because you have some emotional thing you want to share with him.

maybe put that on hold, maybe go share that with someone else, right? Before you share it with your son so that the intensity isn't there because that's where these boys feel a lot of engulfment fears. is intent on making sure that he's there for her. so boundary setting is really important there too. So these are the sorts of things that we talk about.

Robert (49:07)
Yeah.

What about do you do you guys address kind of the father son dynamic as well in those conversations or the father's role to

Dr Daniel P. David (49:19)
Well, there's a whole section on the mother's attitude towards men and the mother's attitude towards fathers. And I think that that's a big section because a lot of times if there's contention between the mother and the father, a lot of times that negativity gets transferred to the son. And of course that affects his own male image, his own male identity.

Because of course when we talk about boys, under let's say under 13, what do they want? They want their moms to be happy. And when they see mom and dad arguing, a lot of times boys in that age group will see their dad as the bad guy. Because they want their moms to be happy and dad is upsetting mom. But at some point when that's happening, mom will

will depend on the boy to say, dad is bad. When we talk about mother's attitudes towards fathers and how it impacts the son, mothers don't realize that co-opting their sons into that us against dad mindset actually impacts the son later on because of course,

Mom will eventually say, you know what, you're just like your dad. You know, she'll get mad and just like your dad. And then he'll feel that negative sense of identity. And of course, you know, it affects how he feels about himself. And, and so, you know, I think that the whole section on, the mother and father relationship and how moms need to affirm, even though they might be having a hard time with,

Robert (50:37)
Hmm.

Dr Daniel P. David (50:59)
their husbands or their son's dad, they need to affirm that as a father, he's a good man. So that it doesn't impact their son's male identity development. But when there's a lot of negativity towards men or towards the father, the boy grows up and says, I don't want to be like him.

Robert (51:12)
It makes sense.

Dr Daniel P. David (51:21)
because he made my mother unhappy. this is where the passivity, the people pleasing comes in. This is where I've got, got to make this woman happy. And then, you know, it's, it's, it's basically, you know, I'm going to make her happy at my own cost and I'm not going to, you know, get my needs met. And then of course they get married and and, they, can't even stand up for their own needs. Right. Because they somehow they'll,

Robert (51:40)
right.

Dr Daniel P. David (51:45)
I don't want to be selfish. I don't want to be seen as a man who just thinks about himself all the time. I'm like, well, you don't even think about yourself half the time. And so it all comes from the mother's attitude towards the father that gets put into the son. And then he grows up with this negative male image.

Robert (51:53)
Yeah. Yeah.

That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought that, but that's, very interesting.

Dr Daniel P. David (52:05)
So, you we...

That's, know, and so I'll ask, you know, how was your mom's attitude towards your dad? she couldn't stand him. And, and then I would ask, well, how did that make you feel as a, as a guy? Well, I don't want to be like that. I didn't want to be like that. I wanted to make her happy. Right.

And then of course he goes out into the world and has this relationship pattern that he now has with the women he dates or marries.

Robert (52:28)
Yeah.

Wow. And then that negatively impacts those relationships. Wow. Well, it's interesting.

Dr Daniel P. David (52:38)
Yes. Right. So that's part

of it. That's part of the coaching process is helping moms to understand that they have to be careful on how they talk about men in front of their sons. They have to be careful about how they talk about their son's dads in front of them, because it will affect long-term their son's male identity.

Robert (53:01)
Are these, ⁓ and

I imagine these are virtual coaching sessions, is that what they are?

Dr Daniel P. David (53:07)
Right,

yeah, yeah, they're on, they're through a virtual medium.

Robert (53:12)
And for those wondering that I've heard you in the past, you're, are still, and you kind of touched on it. You're still working with men as well. And you're still working through men's mental health issues. And if there's a, know, if you want to say failure to launch or relationship problems, whatever it may be, you're still working with them. This is just another, if you want to say service that you're providing to the moms. And I think it's phenomenal. The fact that you're kind of not kind of you're giving these moms.

Dr Daniel P. David (53:20)
Yes.

Robert (53:41)
an inside view on these and, and, know, inside track of, what's been missing at the same time. You should write a book. You should like the mom's guide to you're talking to your time about these negative books that you've seen, you know, kind of the, mom's, inside view to, sons to mother son relationship and nothing but the true facts. And,

Dr Daniel P. David (53:51)
Well, that'll be...

Robert (54:06)
You should think about that.

Dr Daniel P. David (54:07)
Well, I will. Thank you for the suggestion. It's kind of like the, the, the, I well, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I'm trying to finish this other book for young men, but I certainly believe that mothers could benefit from something like that.

Robert (54:12)
You've pushed me on things, so I'ma push you on that.

Or maybe

it's a YouTube channel. Maybe that's what it is. Just something, you know.

Dr Daniel P. David (54:30)
Well, maybe, maybe I'll have to find a mom. I'll have to find a mom. Okay. Right. Definitely. And, and I'm a, I'm a willing participant. It's just, you know, there, there isn't enough, there aren't enough hours in a day. Right. So, you know, but you know, I, I do see the benefits, you know, first of all, mothers benefit by understanding what healthy boundary setting is.

Robert (54:31)
You again, you've pushed me on things, so I'm going to push you.

Yeah, yeah.

Dr Daniel P. David (54:54)
They get support through the transitional period of their sons becoming men. the aim is to improve their communication styles with their sons as they change, as their sons grow. And the communication style has to change.

support navigating emotional shifts that happen. And mom goes through emotional shifts. The son will go through emotional shifts and sometimes moms just need to talk it out with someone and know that they're not losing their minds over it. and, and then of course, you know, it helps with mothers preventing, in enmeshment and over-dependence on their sons. Right? So these are, these are some of the benefits of what I see mothers.

Robert (55:33)
Yeah.

Dr Daniel P. David (55:37)
getting out of the coaching.

Robert (55:38)
I think it's great. I think it's, I think it's so important. You know, we've talked about the beauty of a healthy and how important it is a healthy mother son relationship. But again, it's that fine line. It can be really beautiful, really. And you know, when it's healthy, it's really beautiful, but you step over that line.

Dr Daniel P. David (55:53)
Mm-hmm.

Robert (55:59)
And that's where everything gets off the tracks and it's off the tracks between the mother and the son. And also just kind of a downward spiral for the, for that son, for the young man, for the man later on in life with relationships with everything. And I think, I think it's wonderful what you're doing. really do. What, what else, what else?

Dr Daniel P. David (56:19)
Well, wanting, I want moms to know that their relationship with their sons need to change. That the relationship, mother-son relationship is very important, but it needs to change. It can't be the same way all through the developmental years of a young man's life. It needs to change. you know, and I think that moms who understand that they have to go through

some changes as well as while they're observing their son's change, I think they do better, you know, and that moms really do need to know that their relationship with their sons will have lifelong impacts for good or for bad. And what I deal with every day, it doesn't look good. I see a lot of young men who struggle with their self identity and they struggle with

independence, they struggle with launching their lives because they've been either over dependent on their moms or they had a relationship with their mom that didn't allow them for independence of thinking and independence of being. So moms can do a lot to improve their son's futures by

appropriately learning at different stages what they need to do to help their sons facilitate independence and growth. Right. So I think that coaching is a, is a good option for moms.

Robert (57:42)
So if there's a mother that's out there listening right now and she's going through a certain phase with her son, struggling with this and maybe the son's rebelling or whatever it may be, you know, she's trying to hold on to him. He's rebelling. He's pushing away. Can they just reach out to you? Is that, is that what you want them to do? Is that the best way is to get you if that from that to even a mom saying, look, I am a single mom.

I have two boys, I'm raising them and I want to make sure I'm the best mom for them. And then I have successful young men down the road. Do they reach out? that the best way is just to reach out to you and you'll help them coaching.

Dr Daniel P. David (58:18)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yes. you know, I think that, um, if they want to reach out to me, they can go to the website. Um, and it's a Atlanta men's counseling therapy. It's a long word. know, but it's a Atlanta men's no apostrophe counseling therapy.com. Uh, they can reach out to me there or they can go to, they can email me at, uh, men's life Institute at gmail.com.

And, you know, and then my assistant will, you know, set them up with a consultation and we'll talk and figure out what their needs are. So that's, that's a good way. Right.

Robert (58:59)
And this is anywhere. This isn't just Atlanta. mean, you can be in California.

can be Australia, wherever it is, and they can reach out to you.

Dr Daniel P. David (59:08)
Absolutely. You know, the nature of the service is coaching, so it can be anywhere. And I think that, you know, there are plenty of mothers out there that are looking for this kind of service. They just don't know that it's available. you know, the title or the subtitle of the

Course is a and I'm gonna read it It's a straightforward and candid conversation with mothers about how to raise healthy boys and confident young men in a different world and the different world is what we're living in right now where a lot of young men don't don't know what to do and and Really struggle with their own self-identity in in the new world, right? So and it's candid meaning I have to be straightforward with moms. I have to say hey you you got to stop doing this and you know, so

you know, it's feedback. It's a lot of good feedback and good conversation around, okay, what are the, you know, different things that you can expect as a mom and how are we going to get you through it? So, so I think that it will help moms to, get through this transitional period with their sons.

Robert (1:00:17)
Wow, and then get to that next beautiful phase of the relationship.

Dr Daniel P. David (1:00:21)
what I tell guys is that, or, and moms especially, is that your sons will come back to you. They'll rendezvous back with you and let them come back and on their own terms and say, hey mom, how's life? And then they'll leave again. And we just have to let that process happen. Right? So, you know,

I think that once they get through that transitional period, they can have actually a beautiful relationship with their sons and throughout the rest of their lives.

Robert (1:00:47)
That's great. That's great. Dr. David, I appreciate you coming back on. I really do. It's always, you know, I enjoy talking with you and hearing your advice and highly respect you and just for you to take time out of your afternoon and to come back on here and share. It's so much appreciated and I love what you're doing. I love how you're assisting moms with this right now too.

Dr Daniel P. David (1:00:52)
Well, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Thank you.

And thank you for all that you do and your podcast because I've seen guys and heard from guys who have watched your podcast and have been impacted by it and then reached out because of it. So thank you for what you're doing and I appreciate your kindness. Thank you.

Robert (1:01:27)
Well, you bet. You bet. You bet. Well, look again, thank you for coming on and look, thank you all for listening to the dad to dad's podcast. You can find us on Apple or Spotify, as well as on most platforms, wherever you listen to podcasts, you can also find us on YouTube and Instagram. Don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button so you don't miss any future episodes. And please leave a comment. I read every single one of the comments. I love reading them. or at least most of them.

And I love receiving the feedback and especially the topic suggestions. So look forward to speaking with you all next time.

Dr Daniel P. David (1:01:55)
Ha!