Soul Custody, The Impacts of Divorce on Both Parent and Children

Pamela Henry, author of 'Soul Custody: Sparing Children from Divorce,'  discusses the emotional and psychological impacts of divorce on both parents and children, the regrets many individuals face post-divorce, and the importance of understanding the deeper issues that lead to marital breakdowns. Pamela shares her personal journey, insights from her book, and strategies for couples contemplating divorce, emphasizing the need for empathy and the potential for healing through faith and self-reflection.

Takeaways

• 30% of people regret divorcing, indicating a need for deeper reflection before making such a decision.
• The concept of 'Soul Custody' emphasizes the importance of taking care of one's own emotional and spiritual well-being during and after divorce.
• Divorce can often stem from escapist tendencies, where individuals seek to avoid unresolved issues from their past.
• Common regrets after divorce often revolve around financial stress and loneliness rather than the impact on children.
• The emotional scars from divorce can have lasting effects on children, leading to feelings of sadness and abandonment.
• Focusing on the well-being of children can help couples navigate their own issues and potentially strengthen their marriage.
• Forgiveness plays a crucial role in healing after divorce, both for oneself and for others involved.
• Time is a critical factor in making decisions about divorce; giving oneself time can lead to better outcomes.
• Understanding the child's perspective in a divorce can foster empathy and better decision-making for parents.
• Seeking help and guidance, whether through therapy or spiritual support, can aid in healing and personal growth. 

How to find Pamela Henry
www.soul-custody.com
soulcustody.pamela@gmail.com 


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Transcript

Robert Poirier (00:00)
Hey everyone and welcome back to the dad to dad's podcast. And today I want to welcome Pamela Henry Pamela welcome.

Pamela Henry (00:07)
Thank you Robert for having me on the show.

Robert Poirier (00:09)
So look, you wrote a book, Soul Custody, Sparing Children from Divorce. And I wanted to talk to you about that. You know, I've read something this morning. ⁓ It was about cancer. And it said something like 40 % of all people in the US will develop some form of cancer at some point in their life. Then I went over and I'm like, I wonder, you know, what is it with divorce? Well, it's still around 50-50, you know.

that 50 % of all marriages will end in divorce. we do, I was, started thinking, you know, this is so timely. We do all we can to prevent cancer, right? I mean, we watch what we eat, we exercise, you know, make sure we don't smoke, make sure we don't do this. But Are we doing all we can to prevent divorce?

Pamela Henry (00:59)
Not when 30 % of people regret divorcing. That's what astounded me is when I ran across that statistic that 30 % of people who divorced regret it. That told me there was more work to be done. I was one of them, married 16 years, divorced 16 years, intensely regretted divorce five years after it. ⁓

And I went back, the reason I wrote the book is I went back to try to trace one, where I went wrong, but also to make use of my regrets. I figured I have the hindsight for a reason that I was supposed to shed the light on the path for other people who regret divorce. If I could get to people while they're still married and share these lessons, it might expand their

consideration zone so they have more time to think about the impact on the children which is most people's regret when you think about the regrets overall.

Robert Poirier (02:06)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's, know, I read through it and I appreciate you sharing it with me. I love, I love the book and I love it's, it's God-based. mean, you have scripture throughout. You're not afraid to talk about your faith. You know, it's, it's seems like it was kind of a faith journey for you as well. Probably from divorce and then during this process as well of

of exploring, you know, why people, ⁓ do get divorced. But, ⁓ you know, I wanted to, before we go into that and I want to go back, I want to go into also the regrets. What are, what are some of the regrets people have, but tell me about the name. It's sole custody, but it's spelled S O U L.

Pamela Henry (02:54)
Yes.

Yep, play on words, play on S-O-L-E, custody, just a divorce term. But what it means to me in writing it, when I first started trying to recover from my parents' divorce before I was married, the title came to me. And so I kept a journal called Soul Custody that was about trying to

save my soul from divorce so I could heal so I could get married. ⁓ The plan didn't work. But I mean, it did work to the point where I was married 16 years. But the term meant to me that I had to gain custody of my own soul. Now, I didn't know that that was going to mean later that the Lord was going to save my soul. In the beginning, it was just

Robert Poirier (03:52)
Right.

Pamela Henry (03:54)
Let me save myself from these two warring parents. Then I had to save myself from the internal war that every divorced child gets inside them, a deeply divided, conflicted state in their soul. And that has to heal and come together in their lifetime, or their own adult marriage will fall into that chasm, like mine did, in spite of my best intentions. But now,

Even having written the book, I have discovered even more things about how I was doomed from the start at my marriage. So the book is a real eye-opener. It's a real eye-opener, not only for me writing it, but anyone who reads it. I'm hoping that they understand the concept I'm trying to portray of escapist divorces. These are specifically

people who want out of the marriage because they're trying to evade something in their own past that has nothing to do with the spouse or the children. It's a mystery to solve. So you want to be curious about why you're leaving. Really curious about why you want to leave because why you're leaving may not be the real reason you're leaving, as in my case, which is what I wrote about.

Robert Poirier (04:59)
Hmm, interesting.

So it could even be some sort of transference from something in their past to putting it into their present relationship.

Pamela Henry (05:21)
Absolutely, absolutely. Hands down, I was able to, by writing this book, I was able to name the issue of my childhood that directed all of it. But, and then in the book, I also have questions for people to ask themselves, those same questions. Basically, Robert, if I had taken my time, I could have gotten to those issues.

Robert Poirier (05:23)
That's interesting.

Pamela Henry (05:48)
in the marriage and not thrown my husband and children under the bus. But I was really bent on trying to avoid that altogether.

Robert Poirier (06:00)
You were really vulnerable in the book. I mean, very vulnerable in the book. And when I, you know, we talked and then I read it and I was like, Whoa, she's putting it all out there. Like you didn't hide much. And, ⁓ that's impressive. And I think, you know, reading that others will realize like, wow, okay. I mean, you know, it's I'm showing you what I went through and here's where I am. But you, one thing I want to go back on you touched on it, that your parents were divorced.

Pamela Henry (06:02)
Yes.

No.

Yes.

Robert Poirier (06:28)
How much do you feel that plays into future divorces and to somebody else? Now you're not doomed. If your parents get divorced, doesn't mean you're gonna get divorced. Or if your spouse, if you marry somebody that's had divorced parents, it doesn't mean, my goodness, we're definitely getting divorced. But how much do you think that plays into it?

Pamela Henry (06:47)
I have changed my mind on this question because I used to think, first of all, I used to think, no, it doesn't. It makes you want to work hard or not to. And I think that's true. But then when I divorced anyway, in spite of all my best efforts, I thought, whoa, maybe there's more to it. But in my case, it didn't have to do with repeating the legacy of divorce, making it inevitable.

It was my mental state at the time of the marriage. After I wrote the book, I discovered that I entered into the marriage contract with my husband as a ⁓ already having divorced him. Let me explain. I did a ceremony in my therapy session. It was marital counseling where I walked around him three times and said, I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you.

as a cathartic, let me divorce you before we're married so that when we're married, it won't be an option. But I now look at that as like a curse that I put because in my mind, if I'm gonna be already divorced him going into the marriage, what chance did I have? The other thing was about the adultery. Oh my heavens, I thought it was so innocent at 15 with the

Robert Poirier (07:53)
Yeah, put it your mind.

Pamela Henry (08:09)
Her first boyfriend I had sexual relations with, we promised each other in the future if we're married to other people, we can get together still and it won't be adultery because we decided it at 15. That was the person I cheated with. I can't believe it.

Robert Poirier (08:25)
wow.

Gosh.

Pamela Henry (08:32)
but like,

you think of that as like an innocent thing. It didn't dawn on me to work on that in pre-marital counseling. That's why I'm hoping my book reaches people at the pre-marital counseling phase. If you have any pre-existing contracts, those are two things that the Catholic Church would easily grant me an annulment over. ⁓

Robert Poirier (08:51)
Yeah,

yeah, that's the truth. That's true. So you said, you you talk about 30%, the percentage of people that regret filing a 30%. ⁓ What are some of the most common regrets that people have?

Pamela Henry (09:09)
Okay,

I'll talk about the five top regrets ⁓ that I discovered. It differs from what is the general. Do you want me to talk about my five regrets or general runs that we read about?

Robert Poirier (09:25)
I won't, I

won't, I won't joke because everybody's going to be different. Right. And so, so just from your studies, what have you found or roughly the top three top five would be great, but the top five.

Pamela Henry (09:28)
Okay, yeah they are.

Okay, ⁓

sadly what people regret is not about the children. Because it really should be about the children. They regret the financial stress and the loneliness. If you think about it, that ignores the trauma of divorce on children. I was shocked to find that most regrets are of that nature. They were lonely. They couldn't find anyone better.

and they were financially ruined. And to me that's so tragic because it shows that they got divorced without even knowing what the impact of the children was and then they really missed the whole point because the regrets that I convey in my book, hopefully, powerfully are the enormous amount of sadness that is created for a child, the enormous amount of anxiety,

Robert Poirier (10:26)
Yeah.

Pamela Henry (10:29)
The cutting in half if you're lucky to get 50-50 custody, you're cutting in half the rest of your children's childhood time with you and your time with your children and their other parents' time with their child, cutting in half. Dishonoring God in your wedding vow and the spouse if you're of a religious nature, which I wasn't, but when I became, I really regretted going against God by divorcing when I became a Christian.

And then passing on the legacy, you know? ⁓ When you come from divorce, ooh, it's salt in the wound to pass on that legacy. I mean, I didn't pass on family alcoholism and I didn't pass on sexual abuse in my family and I didn't pass on ⁓ physical and verbal abuse, but I passed on divorce. This book is a way for me to pass on, pass on.

my lessons of what I learned so that hopefully my kids who are not married yet can it they'll have the divorce legacy but they'll have mom's lessons to go with it I gave them a blueprint of what not to do

Robert Poirier (11:35)
Yeah.

You know, it's interesting. Um, in my spare time, I work, um, I lead a divorce recovery class with another leader and, and, um, we'll have anywhere from 12 to 16 people in there. It's a 16 week course meeting once a week. And we have this book that we go through. Um, and it's interesting when you brought up the financial stress and the loneliness, that's the number one, that's so common.

I mean, I hear that on both sides, ⁓ men and women, ⁓ mostly from women it seems like, but I hear that a lot with the loneliness and the financial stress over anything with children.

Over anything, you know, when we do talk about regrets, do you have any regrets? And there are several in there that, know, in each class that, I just should have done this. And I regret getting divorced, but now we're divorced and I'm trying to find my way forward. And, know, and when we talk about that, that is, I agree with you. think hands down, the financial stress and the loneliness is one in two.

Pamela Henry (12:53)
Yeah, yeah, and I'm looking at ⁓ ignoring the impact on the children because again, divorce was all about me and what I wanted and I thought that what was best for me was best for the children and I couldn't have been more wrong. What was best for my children were for me and their parents to stay together in my case. No domestic violence, no abuse. It's so confusing to children when you have...

Robert Poirier (12:53)
for most people.

Yeah.

Pamela Henry (13:20)
a marriage that doesn't look like anything's wrong because if you're internally trying to escape, you know, a demon from your past, literally, you can look normal like a functioning mom, but you're, and so when you divorce because you're trying to get away from yourself, your children's heads will spin. They will not know. Why? What?

Nothing is wrong between them. You're right, because everything is going on in here, just me. And so I'm hoping too, parents who read this will understand the other parent better if they need any empathy for what, let's say you're the one being left or being considered being left. My book will help people with their compassion and empathy levels regarding what that parent might be going through.

Robert Poirier (14:11)
Right.

Pamela Henry (14:11)
Because

if someone who's married to someone who's wanting out of a marriage can help shed light on some of the issues, now that can also backfire. I had a, my husband was perfectly willing to stay with me even though I had had emotional affairs. ⁓ He was perfectly willing to stay and work through anything I needed to work through. And he was gonna forgive me for those affairs too. And I still ⁓ wanted out because I didn't wanna face it.

So you can't make someone face something, but if you understand, you're not gonna do that thing where you blame yourself or it becomes so intolerable because you think it's about you, when really it's about the person who wants out.

Robert Poirier (14:55)
Yeah. Yeah. And we're not, and I'm not anti-divorce. This isn't saying anti-divorce. I mean, I do think there are certain, certain, certain circumstances where divorce is extremely appropriate. You know, you've got to get out of this unhealthy, unsafe environment for you, for the kids. You have to, mean, so I think I can say that for both of us. We're not saying that, but this is on those circumstances where there's probably some sort of.

Pamela Henry (15:19)
No.

Robert Poirier (15:25)
trauma in the background that has been maybe undiscovered and, ⁓ you know, hasn't been worked through that type. And, I think that's a, it's, it's interesting again, I hate to go back to this course, but that, that, ⁓ I teach, but when we go back and we look at childhood, there is so much of whether it's the coping.

how they cope, how they process things, what they saw with their parents and whether it's, well, times are bad, I gotta go. ⁓ Mom put up with this, I wish she hadn't, so I'm out the door. And I'm curious too, I wanna ask you something. Do you think today, it's a lot easier to get divorced?

Do you think today with society, it's, I don't want to say celebrated, but it's almost, it's so much easier to get divorced. it's, you know, I remember, let me put it this way. I remember growing up and I remember friends of my family that when the mom and dad were going through rough times, seemed like they really, really worked hard.

And like really worked hard and you knew what was going on and a lot of them did make it. And I'm not saying they had the perfect marriage, but it seems like now it's like, no, I'm out the door. I'm gone. I'm, gone.

Pamela Henry (16:52)
Yes, I think we live

in a really quick, instant, disposable society and divorce fits that framework so perfectly and it is really easy to get a divorce.

Robert Poirier (16:57)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Especially here in the U S I mean, yeah, we have people that listen overseas. And know there's some places, ⁓ that have reached out to some people in other places that have reached out and will tell me, you know, that they have to wait. can't remember if it's 12 months or something like that to, get a divorce, ⁓ that the court makes them,

It's interesting.

Pamela Henry (17:23)
I it's a... I wish everybody just more time to consider if they're considering... ⁓

Robert Poirier (17:29)
Yeah. So,

uh, know, you were talking about the impact on the children and, I definitely want to explore that, but, know, you think too about the parents, the impact on the parents when the ones that don't have the children at that time, kind of the, uh, you know, I think you even talked about the longing that parents feel when they're not with their children. You know, do you, do you want to kind of expand on that a little bit?

Pamela Henry (17:53)
Yes.

Yeah,

20, let's see, I wanna say the last 17 years as a co-parent having shared custody, how I solved that problem was keeping a journal to each child separately. So I would write to them when I wasn't with them. And I love that because I was able to... ⁓

connect with them and keep a relationship going with them and they have they'll have these journals one day that I that I wrote to them and Everything very appropriate. It's for them. So it really filled in That's the first thing I say to anyone who has shared custody When you're not with your kids and you miss them write to them or paint to them or do something for them to them That they will get because you can fill in that empty space. That's an agonizing space where

Robert Poirier (18:29)
Right, right, right.

Pamela Henry (18:47)
Parents who aren't with their kids will turn to drugs, alcohol, ⁓ relationships, all kinds of things. And I had my period of not turning to drugs or alcohol because I've been sober since 1988. But the relationships, the compulsive relationships, there's a reason remarriage divorce rates are even higher than first marriage divorce rates. Successive relationships.

Robert Poirier (19:10)
Mm-hmm.

Pamela Henry (19:14)
sometimes don't work in the aftermath of divorce. And that is even more something you put your kids through and also yourself through. But to address that, really to fill the space with the things that can build you up and connect you to your children. There are so many things we can do with and for our kids when we're not with them. So I try to empower people once they're on that end to go that route.

Robert Poirier (19:42)
You know, had a guy on, um, guess what was the end of, I it was the end of last year. Uh, Aaron was his name or is his name. And, um, he was talking about just the, the loneliness and when his children left the silence and how, when they went back to with their mom, the silence in his house and how it was just eating him up and how he turned.

Pamela Henry (19:58)
Yes.

Robert Poirier (20:08)
You know, kind of, like you said, you know, you have some people that turned, excuse me, some people that turned to drugs or alcohol. he ended up turning, I think to jujitsu. And he said, you know, as soon as the kids would leave, he said, I was not going to be in the house. And when I came back to the house, I was going to be mentally and physically exhausted. So he went and started getting into jujitsu and, you know, and that was the way to kind of.

get over that silence and that loneliness for that part He and then every time I feel that way in the house, I would go do something physical, whether it was go to the gym and roll or whatever it is.

Pamela Henry (20:46)
Yes.

And

you know one thing people overlook? You know that silence you just mentioned? This is what the child feels when they go to the other parent's house. Imagine feeling the absence and the silence around each parent you're not with over and over and over and over and over. In this back and forth, we forget that the child constantly feels the

coming and going and the coming and going and the abandonment and the absence over and over and over of one or the other. The silence for them is the lack of the other parent's voice in the home alternately over and over and over and over, if you can imagine for a minute. Yeah.

Robert Poirier (21:34)
That makes a lot of sense. makes

a lot of sense. Since we're talking about children, I know you touch on the sadness that children feel and the helplessness that they feel ⁓ with divorce. Do you mind kind of going into that more?

Pamela Henry (21:50)
Yeah, the sadness. I can describe it as a broken heartedness. ⁓ When I think of it myself, just, this is me on the cover of the book. You see this face right here? This is the sadness right here. This is my brother and me. Your heart is broken because your mommy and daddy are not together anymore. And it's like,

Robert Poirier (22:03)
Yeah.

Pamela Henry (22:19)
your heart goes into a million pieces. I just read almost 900 essays of high school students on the impact of divorce on their childhood. And the common thread through all of them was their lives being shattered. What they're talking about is their heart being broken. They all touched on it in a different metaphor through all the essays. ⁓

That deep sadness, when you create that in a child through the trauma of divorce, you will set them up for possibly a lifetime of depression, anxiety, ⁓ and that is a wound that will have to be healed. So in our family, we call it, we have the divorce scars because they say it has healed.

but they are scars. It will have to heal. It's a wound so deep, it has to heal.

Robert Poirier (23:20)
You know, we all have scars and I'm not downplaying divorce. We do. And I think this is one thing I am very big on therapy. I wasn't. ⁓ But over the last several years, I've become very big on therapy. know, we do things. I play golf. I play tennis. There's no problem going and getting a golf lesson. There's no problem getting a tennis lesson to get better. But we, especially men, ⁓

We won't do things to help us and a lot of times it is getting better, but a lot of times we won't do things to kind of work through our past. You know, my dad died when I was 10 and I had a lot of things to work through with that. And so a lot of, mean, there's so many things, even so much as at one time not wanting to get married and because I didn't want to leave a spouse and then didn't want to have children. Fortunatley I do.

⁓ because, know, I didn't want to leave them young. And so I went and had all these tests done to, know, hopefully make sure I didn't die when my, know, at the same age, my dad, but it's working through those things that we all have to. mean, you're right. The divorce scars, the whatever scars they are. It's really being in to being in touch with them, getting in touch with them, finding out what they are and how they're impacting your life. I.

Pamela Henry (24:24)
Yes!

Yes.

Robert Poirier (24:42)
And I think

you've really put it out there in your future relationships. And I think you really put it out there in this book of showing, that.

Pamela Henry (24:51)
You know, I'm first of all, I just want to say I'm really sorry for the loss of your parent at age 10. I was married. My children's father lost his mother at seven and I wished for a second that I had put together. Pamela, if you leave your husband when your daughter is seven years old, because she was the middle daughter was seven years old, you are.

in fact, recreating the abandonment that he had to go through when the mother was removed from the home. Now, it was I didn't die, but I removed myself from the home as the mother. And if I had just thought, do I want to put my spouse through that original trauma he suffered all over again? If I had just had that thought, I might have answered, I can't do that to him. But I did not have that thinking till five years later.

Robert Poirier (25:41)
Yeah.

Pamela Henry (25:47)
after the divorce. But could we think about the injury that we are doing to other people before we think we're claiming our freedom?

Robert Poirier (25:47)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's, I think that's really good. mean, like, yeah, we all have, well, I don't want to wrap us all into it, but the majority of us have some scars somewhere in our life and it can even be, you know, I just thought about this. Maybe your parents stayed married, but maybe they had an absolutely horrible relationship and you saw that and you didn't see love. You never knew what it was like. And, ⁓ I can go a little bit further than that real quick.

There's a gentleman I know that never, his dad never told him he loved him, never told him he was proud of him. He's a new dad. Now he is a new dad. He was very worried. Will he be able to express love to his kid? And cause he didn't know what it felt like. And now I've seen him with his kid. He definitely has, he has definitely come over that and expresses it very

very openly. But the other thing was when I was talking to him, he never saw his parents love each other. Never saw his dad kiss his mom. Never saw him pat her affectionately. None of that. And I asked him, like, how are you with your wife? And he said, oh, I love her to death. Does she know it? Yeah. And then once seeing them together, you see it. And so it is something to become aware of. And you know, lot of these things we hide, right? We do hide.

Pamela Henry (27:20)
So

true. There's one thing that those families don't have that actually stay together even if they have a lot of trouble and fight and argue but they stay together. The thing that they don't have in the end is the divorce wound. That's what makes it so distinctive is that there's a particular wound associated with divorcing that ⁓ they'll never know about. They didn't ever have it.

Robert Poirier (27:21)
in our lives because we don't

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And we're too afraid as well to go back and it's too painful to go back and explore these things. That's the, think that's the big thing. I know.

Pamela Henry (27:49)
yes.

was courageous, Robert. I

was a wimp. At the time, I thought I was so brave facing all my issues, but I was also facing them without God. I don't know what kind of chance I had. I didn't even have a religious ⁓ internal support system until after the divorce. And so I was lacking that. So I would love to appeal to people out there who do have a religious... ⁓

foundation within themselves to draw upon that, to really find some strength to stay, you know?

Robert Poirier (28:28)
That's one of the things I loved about your book is, well, as you go through it and you kind of had the background, but then once you really dug in and turned to God, and you could even see, I mean, it seemed like that's when the healing really started to take place within you.

Pamela Henry (28:31)
What was that?

Yes.

I saw the marriage through the eyes of God! I should have been seeing the marriage through the eyes of God on the wedding altar when I gave my vows!

Robert Poirier (28:55)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I love that. And, know, I, I think too, for whoever's listening, I'm, I'm sure there's some people that believe in God that are, that are spiritual and some that don't, but my thing is, if not, if you don't, ⁓ I mean, that's your choice, but if you're going through one of these rocky patches, give it a try, you know, give it a try, reach out and see it's not going to hurt.

Pamela Henry (29:19)
Yes, yeah.

Robert Poirier (29:24)
⁓ you know, give it a try and, and who knows, you might see things turn around. You might for you, you might have more clarity into things as well. And, know, one thing I loved in your book too, was another thing I loved in your book was you said marriage is to serve God, but I didn't look at it that way. Tell me more about that. If you don't mind.

Pamela Henry (29:43)
How would I have

best served God? It's by choosing to stay in the marriage and commit to the well-being of my husband and my children. That's how I would have best served God and myself in the end. I mean, if I really wanted to help myself, I would not have escaped because escaping is what...

Robert Poirier (30:06)
Yeah, that makes sense.

Pamela Henry (30:08)
really threw a wrench into my healing process. It took me so long to recover myself. Maybe it would have been only five months if I had stayed in the marriage as opposed to five years. I could have found Jesus while I was married woman.

Robert Poirier (30:23)
Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. So I want to ask you this, how, for those people that are contemplating divorce are just thinking that's the only way out. Again, these aren't, this isn't abuse. We're not talking about abuse. We're not talking about any of that. Anything that's harmful. We're talking about, we've just come to a time where it's just not working.

Maybe I've fallen out of love, it's not what it used to be or what I viewed marriage to be. ⁓ What are some things people can implement? What are the strategies? What would you suggest? ⁓

Pamela Henry (30:58)
Well, I know this sounds contradictory,

but I'm not a therapist, so I can be contradictory. I think if you focus on, and I'm just going to use the metaphor, changing a diaper. If you focus on taking care of your kids as a couple, do you know how underrated that is in our society? We look at like focusing on the kids is neglecting your marriage. That's how we look at it. If we put our kids first,

that somehow we're not putting our marriage first or we're neglecting our marriage. It's so backwards in our society. I submit to you that if we focus on caring for our children, that our issues will work themselves out on the sidelines. But as soon as we put our selfish needs as adults first and foremost and think we have to figure all those out, the kids are going to get lost in the shuffle starting right then.

Robert Poirier (31:34)
Interesting.

Pamela Henry (31:55)
You know, but if we focus on, let me tell you the best part of our divorce process, okay? This is before we were divorced. This is the biggest clue and this answers your question. We were in marriage counseling and we said, what do we really want? Well, we really wanted another child. Well, let's have another child. So we were in the middle of our divorce discussions.

Robert Poirier (31:56)
Yeah.

Pamela Henry (32:20)
And we sat in front of the therapist and said, we want another baby. And she looked at us and she said, what? But we were like, that is the answer. And you know what? We bought ourselves another year and a half where we were so happy and focused on bringing this other child into the world. And for a while, our issues just went to the wayside because we were focused on the children.

We were focused on the children we wanted. But even if we didn't want to bring a third child in, we could have been focused on the children we had to help, you know, to focus on what's important, because they are most important at this time in our lives. And that was the biggest clue that it was okay to stay for the children and you should. I just gave up again after that.

Robert Poirier (32:45)
Yeah.

Yeah,

that makes sense. And then I see when you're talking about that, then if you're starting to look and you know, okay, what can we do that's best for the children? Well, we can do this. We can show them this. We can show them. I think from what you're saying is then you're going to start viewing it as, well, we need to work on ourselves too. Don't we? need to work on our relationship for the children. And it just kind of waterfalls into that.

Pamela Henry (33:30)
Yeah.

And in that strategy, yes, it would be good because you could continue in counseling. And boy, I wish I had spiritual marital counseling, you know, either through a church or someone who would brought in faith. Ours was very secular. ⁓ And for those children then, while you're focusing on being there for them, you're not negating

that you are working on yourselves, but there is something about having children that challenges you to go deeper into your own childhood history. It brings out every deep dark secret that ever was. It's no secret to anyone who reads my book, I talk about incest. I had a hard time separating my spouse from my father. That makes for a really bad sex life.

Okay, if that increases as your child becomes the age that you were when you were incested, for example, you will not want to have sex with your spouse at all. And that's really bad for the marriage. But if you can take that into counseling and say, help me, I know this is interfering with my relationship, it's that much more important that I resolve it. Maybe the...

guy from the grocery store won't look so attractive.

Robert Poirier (35:02)
Makes sense. That makes that makes a lot of sense. That makes. Yeah, that makes complete sense. It definitely does. ⁓

So I want to ask you this, I imagine you, as you're going through your studies, you probably interviewed probably even number, close to even number of men versus women.

Where do you find, do more men or do more women regret divorce? Or is it pretty, right?

Pamela Henry (35:25)
More women divorce men, so

more women regret it because more women are the ones who are petitioners. And so, yeah, I'm glad I'm a female and I'm glad women will read this book because maybe I can reach more of them in that regard. Because if more are like me, then maybe they can be helped. ⁓ And I'm not sure why that is. It might be... ⁓

Robert Poirier (35:31)
are the ones that initiated. Okay.

Pamela Henry (35:54)
a blessing to not have to look at all the issues, whatever you were saying earlier, how men kind of are guarded, but maybe that protects them from the women who think they have to face everything and fix, you know, and address all their feelings because then when you become, let's say you have an emotional affair, you think that's the person for you and suddenly you're completely derailed from your own actual God-given married life.

Robert Poirier (35:59)
Right, right.

Pamela Henry (36:24)
So maybe we're at a disadvantage because of that. But so yes, as far as the masses go, but that doesn't discount. Anyone could be the man in my situation in my book who is the one wanting out. And then with the understanding of, gosh, maybe I should stay and work on these issues. It requires.

so much courage and the children, ⁓ the big danger in an unnecessary divorce is that your own past becomes the thing that then harms your children just by not facing it. That's the only way I can put it.

Robert Poirier (37:10)
Yeah. Yeah.

That no, that, and that's, that's, that's so powerful. mean, you know, I hate to put it this way, but you kind of pardon my French, you need to work through your own shit or you're going to pass it on to somebody else. I mean, in, that, happens.

Pamela Henry (37:24)
Yeah, yeah.

And that's why

after this, it's like, well, you know, when I, in my reconciliation attempts, well, it's fine that you, that you realize your ways now and you understand why you, and you wished you didn't regret, but spare me because the damage is already done. But I was grateful in the course of writing this book, my oldest daughter and my children's father both forgave me for everything. It was a, it was a beautiful moment. And

Robert Poirier (37:44)
already done. Yeah.

Let's beg.

Pamela Henry (37:58)
Readers have been contacting me saying that they asked for forgiveness of certain people and their families after reading my book. And that is better than making an Amazon bestseller list. When you can get one person saying that they asked forgiveness from somebody because they read your book. That is success to me. Hello.

Robert Poirier (38:19)
Yeah, that is, that is.

It definitely is. I I enjoyed reading it. ⁓ I appreciate how you were throughout. ⁓ Again, you put it all out there. It's definitely a book, not only for people. Honestly, I don't think it's just for people that are contemplating divorce. I think it's for people that have gone through divorce as well.

Pamela Henry (38:32)
Thank you.

I've been finding that too. There's people that call me and say, can you please start a group on childhood divorce? And I thought, I didn't feel called to. And I thought, wow, I'm collecting some people. There's no reason not to. Whoever, a stepmother wrote me and said, I begged forgiveness of my stepchildren after reading your book. And I had no intention of bringing a message out in the book about stepmothers.

Robert Poirier (38:59)
Right.

Yeah.

Pamela Henry (39:13)
Maybe it's because of that one entry about my stepmother that she saw that she saw that ⁓ Wow, okay. I see how the kids See it because I hoped I hope this happened for you Robert when you read it. Could you see? The divorce from the child's perspective when you were reading the book. That was my goal. I want people to see divorce from the child's perspective

Robert Poirier (39:34)
absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I think I, ⁓ yeah.

Pamela Henry (39:41)
This they can help their friends with. We all have friends who are divorcing. And they have

kids and you think, no, not them. And now I have a book to give them, my own.

Robert Poirier (39:52)
Well, I think,

I think, I think whether you're divorced and you have, you know, you have children or yeah, like a friend, think it's extremely helpful for that. Just giving you insight as to what they've experienced, what they're feeling. And honestly, probably their fears moving forward of, my mom and dad got divorced, so I'm probably going to get divorced too. Or there's a good chance I'll get divorced. You know, it's a, it's a good, ⁓

good guidance there for insight into what the kids go through. From being small, even on up to adulthood, I think.

Pamela Henry (40:23)
And I wish...

Thank you for saying so. I wish one person had gotten in my face and said, don't divorce. I didn't have any voice telling me not to. And that's what I wanted to be the voice to tell people not to in unnecessary divorces. I wanted.

Robert Poirier (40:38)
Yeah.

You know,

I think too, when people are going through something like that, you surround yourself by people that a lot of times people that will give you the advice you want to hear, right?

Pamela Henry (40:55)
Yes, absolutely.

It fits your agenda.

Robert Poirier (40:58)
Yeah. And I think too many times you don't have true friends that will tell you, Hey, you're being dumb. Hey, you're being selfish. You know, Hey, have you looked, have you thought about this thoroughly thought about this through the kid's eyes? And so I think that unfortunately we, as people we go to who's going to make it easy. Who's going to agree. Who's going to agree with us. And, ⁓ so tell me this. want to, I want to be cognizant of your time.

Pamela Henry (41:05)
Yes! Yes!

Right.

Yeah, exactly.

Robert Poirier (41:28)
What have we missed? There's so much in the book, but what have we missed? What do you want to leave everybody with?

Pamela Henry (41:32)
gosh, what have we missed? ⁓ How do you, this is just a question out loud, how do you give yourself more time? You know, there's two people involved in a divorce. One person signed, well they both have to sign, right? They both have to sign divorce papers. Negotiate how to get yourself more time. Time is the only thing you can give yourself to ward off divorce. What else is there? Time will give you grace, space,

new ideas and give God a chance to work. And it buys your children some time with some married parents.

Robert Poirier (42:08)
That's great. That is that's wonderful. How can people find find you and find your boat?

Pamela Henry (42:14)
Well, if they go to Amazon, can plug in the title, S-O-U-L, Soul Custody, Sparing Children from Divorce. It'll come right up in four different formats. You can go to my website, S-O-U-L hyphen custody dot com, soulcustody dot com. But if you want to be in a group, just email me, soulcustody dot Pamela at gmail dot com. And I would love to hear.

You know, I have some online classes through my city where we study the book. Anyone can join from anywhere on those classes.

Robert Poirier (42:45)
wonderful.

I was not aware of that. That's what's wonderful. That's absolutely wonderful. And what I will do also, I will put a link down so people can find you on there. Are you on social media, Instagram, any of that as well or?

Pamela Henry (43:02)
Yes, I'm on both, and Facebook.

Robert Poirier (43:05)
Okay, okay. I will make sure to put links on there so people can find you and look, I thank you so much for ⁓ you coming on. I definitely do.

Pamela Henry (43:14)
Thank you, Robert.

It's a great topic and I'm so glad we got to share it for all the listeners to hear, just giving them this almost hour together to really get some space going for them.

Robert Poirier (43:22)
Yeah, and I-

And I, and again, I cannot recommend this book enough. It's, I, ⁓ I've really enjoyed reading it. think it's extremely, extremely valuable for those that are divorced and especially for those that are even starting to think about divorce. ⁓ I think it's, this is, this is a must read that, ⁓ you need to pick it up and spend some time. And it's an easy read too. It's very easy. So, Pamela, Hey,

Pamela Henry (43:52)
Thank you, Robert. Thank you so much.

Robert Poirier (43:54)
Thank you again for coming on and thank you all for listening to the dad to dad's podcast. You can find us on apple or Spotify as well as most podcast platforms. You can also find us on Instagram and YouTube. ⁓ don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button. Please leave comments. I read every one of them. love received receiving the feedback as well as, suggestions for future episodes as well. And we look forward to talking to you next time.