Unpacking Narcissism: Nature vs. Nurture with Dr. Peter Salerno

Dr. Peter Salerno is back and discusses the complexities of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), emphasizing its hereditary nature and the role of trauma. He explores the manipulative tactics used by individuals with NPD, the challenges in identifying and treating personality disorders, and the impact of these disorders on relationships and the legal system. Dr. Salerno also highlights the importance of understanding the nuances of emotional abuse and the potential for change in individuals with NPD when provided with the right therapeutic interventions.

Takeaways

• Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is hereditary, not solely caused by trauma.
• Trauma is neither necessary nor sufficient for the diagnosis of NPD.
• Narcissism operates on a continuum of severity, with varying degrees of traits.
• Manipulation and gaslighting are common tactics used by individuals with NPD.
• The legal system often fails to recognize the impact of personality disorders in divorce & custody cases.
• Children can exhibit traits of narcissism as early as age two.
• A supportive environment can mitigate the severity of narcissistic traits in children.
• There is hope for change in individuals with NPD through targeted therapeutic interventions.

How to find Dr. Peter Salerno and his books
https://www.drpetersalerno.com/
IG https://www.instagram.com/drpetersalerno/

Dad to Dads Podcast on IG www.instagram.com/dadtodads

Transcript

Robert Poirier (00:00)
Dr. Peter Salerno. Welcome back to the podcast. Man, I appreciate you coming back on. You literally are one of my favorite guests. And I think part of that is how you've challenged the notion that narcissistic personality disorder, that everybody's believed that it's through nurturing versus nature, that it's through past, trauma in their life versus, Hey,

Dr. Peter Salerno (00:03)
Thank you for having me.

Robert Poirier (00:26)
This is hereditary. And I just, appreciate it. everybody tends to enjoy the show when you're on and look, thank you again for coming on.

Dr. Peter Salerno (00:36)
I appreciate you inviting me back.

Robert Poirier (00:38)
Man. Well, you've been busy. You're also a TV star.

Dr. Peter Salerno (00:44)
Not I wouldn't say star but yeah I got invited to be part of a panel of experts for a docu-series on specifically well Ted Bundy was the central focus of the documentary on on Hulu but it's really I was I was invited to give a perspective of kind of identifying the manipulative tactics when he was having conversations where he was helping the detectives ⁓

find another serial killer. was trying to extend his execution date and saying that he would offer to help profile so they could catch him, but it was really more just about saving his own skin, which is typical of him. But ⁓ the show wanted some, you know, they had incredible experts from forensic psychology, but they also wanted someone who worked directly with people like that, and I did extensively work with

personality disorders throughout my career. So it's one thing to research them and ⁓ teach about them and hear about them and it's another thing to be in the room with them on a consistent basis ⁓ for years and years on end in not so ⁓ safe environments. So ⁓ when you start out as a therapist you get thrown into a lot of different settings where these people ⁓ you encounter them and ⁓

There's not a lot of security and there's not a lot of safety. You just kind of get thrown in a room with some of these individuals. ⁓

Robert Poirier (02:13)
can't

imagine how manipulative they are when you're in room with them and the conversations.

Dr. Peter Salerno (02:20)
yeah, interesting. When I first started off, you know, and it's relevant to this discussion because we're taught to give people unconditional positive regard, empathy, ⁓ basically give them the benefit of the doubt, validate them. Well, there's a lot of people who ⁓ you're going to encounter who know that that's how therapists are taught. And so when you're first starting out, they can spot you right away. So,

I remember there was one place I was assigned and all of the young men wanted to jump onto my caseload and I was thinking, wow, I must be doing a really good job. They knew they could snow me because I hadn't yet gotten, you know, well versed in the training that I have now. So it was really that they wanted a therapist that they could manipulate easily ⁓ and who wouldn't ⁓ be picking up on it. So it was a fun learning experience. Yeah, not anymore.

Robert Poirier (03:14)
Not anymore.

Times have changed. Somebody's gotten a lot wiser there. Hey, look, I see you everywhere. Now. I know we were talking about before we jumped on the recording, but you're at you're all over social media. mean, it doesn't matter. I can put on YouTube, I can Instagram. mean, you're everywhere. Obviously you're on the TV. I mean, congratulations. What else has been going on with you?

Dr. Peter Salerno (03:38)
Yeah, thank you. I've just been really blessed with a lot of people resonating with the content and like yourself, just reaching out for interviews and things like that. people, I think that what's helpful is, and I think I should probably say this even for your audience, it's not about trying to...

reinvent the wheel or pull an I'm right, you're wrong type of thing. It's just there's this large component that's kind of dismissed or ⁓ downplayed that I'm trying to bring attention to because it fills in the gaps for a lot of people who really are not experiencing a lot of these manipulative people as victims themselves. They're really experiencing it as a deliberate conscious decision to be exploitative. And so this biological

perspective really validates a lot of people's experience. So I mean, I've really just been up to ⁓ writing and ⁓ facilitating workshops, kind of doing more educational than clinical work at this point and more research. I think the last time we talked, I had published a book on the nature and nurture of narcissism. I've subsequently published another book called Traumatic

cognitive dissonance, which is really about what happens when you're in a relationship with somebody who's not necessarily physically abusive, but who is consistently distorting your reality through truth manipulation and the colloquial term is gaslighting and all of these covert manipulative tactics that are invisible to legal systems, invisible to therapists. And there's a lot of people coming for

looking for help who have invisible scars from these types of relationships. And because they're invisible, they're not physical bruises on the skin, they're invalidated a lot ⁓ by professionals, by the justice system. And so I wanted to create a resource where people could be really validated. Like, if you are not necessarily a victim of domestic violence, but you're a victim of decades of this insidious, covert...

manipulation, the brain and nervous system are impacted just as severely as physical pain. And so that's the kind of the topic of that book. And then probably within a month I'm actually releasing another book on basically the science behind intentional abuse and cruelty, that there's people who have traits within them that they are...

I guess we could say it's no fault of their own that they possess the traits, but at the same time they're not doing anything to mitigate the damage that these traits are causing. They are using them as a convenience for an advantage in their lives. I'm gonna go over the... yes, correct, yeah. So in that book we're gonna talk more about the science behind all of the systems, neurobiological and the neuroscience, that shows that there's a conscious deliberate... ⁓

Robert Poirier (06:35)
Weaponizing them, basically.

Dr. Peter Salerno (06:51)
abuse that's taking place, and these people are not trying to be different, they're just exploiting this kind of natural tendency to be aggressive, manipulative, deceitful, conning, and it's really working for them. So this idea that they're traumatized and they're acting out, there's a lot of research to suggest that that's not the entire story.

Robert Poirier (07:14)
You are filling a need for so many people. I mean, you really are. And, you know, every time I've had you on, I think this is your third time maybe. And last time was probably 10 or 11 months ago. Reading the comments, like what you are out there telling, what you're out there preaching resonates with so many people that are like, I knew it. I knew that. Thank you for somebody, in academia.

actually validating what I've believed all along. And, ⁓ that's really, you know, when we got back together, when I reached out, it's like, Hey, you want to come on and answer some questions? I still from 11 months ago. I still get comments, whether they're public or whether they're DMS. And, ⁓ you know, I just, I love what you're doing. I mean, I do.

And I love how it resonates with so many people and validating again, validating what they have felt for so long. So thank you. Hey, you want to jump into questions? All right, here we go. ⁓ so there's still, I, I, I've received, I still get a lot of messages from people that are still sticking with the notion that narcissistic personality disorder is caused by childhood trauma.

Dr. Peter Salerno (08:11)
Let's do it.

Robert Poirier (08:30)
Um, and that it's not hereditary. So I want to ask you, why are you so convinced that NPD is hereditary and that it isn't caused by, childhood trauma, exposure, abuse.

Dr. Peter Salerno (08:48)
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I kind of want to speak to what hereditary refers to first. So there's a difference between ⁓ heritability and inheritability. So usually when people talk about something being ⁓ inheritable or hereditary, they're talking about a ⁓ transmission across a particular family line, right?

Things like cancer, things like a propensity to ⁓ gain weight, ⁓ height, eye color, these things are kind of transmitted straight from your parents' I don't think many people can test that. But when I'm using the term, when I use the term genetics, genetics actually refers to differences in DNA.

That's really what it means. It doesn't mean family differences, it means human differences in DNA. So we're all like 99.9 % the same, and there's a tiny little percentage of DNA differences. Those often happen like the lottery. The moment of conception, we get a mixed bag, and then we get all kinds of developmental variation.

that could potentially make somebody more at risk for any kind of a condition or a disorder, or make them resilient to not getting the disorder. So I don't want people to kind of panic and think, if I married somebody who, for all intents and purposes, 20 years has been systematically abusing me and eroding my self-worth, and I have children with that person,

Does that mean that my kids are carbon copies of that? That's not what it means, okay? Just like we see with ADHD, with autism, two parents without that condition can give birth to a child who has it, right? And so, ⁓ we also need to realize that things like NPD, what we're starting to realize now is they operate on a spectrum or a continuum of severity, frequency, intensity. So, not everybody is, even though it would be convenient,

Not everybody is cut from the same cloth. There's no such thing as a narcissistic gene. There's no such thing as a borderline gene. There's no such thing as a combination of genes that it's packaged together and delivers a card-carrying narcissist. That's not how it works. ⁓ So I just want to make that clear. We're talking about differences in the DNA sequence, and that's the same with depression too. You know, if you get thousands of differences that...

Robert Poirier (11:31)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Peter Salerno (11:34)
together have or separately have very small effect but together create a very large effect, you're going to be more at risk for developing something like depression. It's the same thing with narcissism. ⁓ As far as the question of why am I claiming that or sharing research, it's not even that I'm originating this idea, but why am I sharing research that shows that there's a heritable component to this disorder? Well, because

If you work in a clinical setting, and any therapist who's worked with personality disorders will vouch for this. When you work in clinical settings and you don't just meet one or two narcissistic people, you meet lots of people who are narcissistic or personality disordered. Not necessarily because they're coming to treatment because they have a personality disorder. They might be coming to treatment for substance abuse. They might be in an intimate partner violence program. They might be in ⁓ you know...

⁓ a treatment center, a residential center, they might be mandated to come to therapy. So you encounter them, they just don't come in saying, hey, I'm a card-carrying narcissist. But you meet hundreds of them in different settings. When they come in, a lot of them report no history of adversity or trauma. And then oftentimes you interview their families because they might be incorporating their family.

Robert Poirier (12:45)
Yeah.

Dr. Peter Salerno (13:00)
into the treatment, you know, and they all unanimously have the same story. There's no adversity with this person. Yet they meet the criteria for a personality disorder. So our research has shown us that trauma is neither necessary nor sufficient in a diagnosis of a personality disorder because there are just as many who don't have childhood adversity as there are who do. So then we have to go back to the drawing board when there's people who don't have

Robert Poirier (13:24)
Yeah.

Dr. Peter Salerno (13:29)
adverse childhood experiences. ⁓ Now the counter argument that I get a lot to that is, well, they did have it, it was just unconscious and repressed, and so they don't know that they were abused. Okay, that's not a testable theory, and any theory that's not testable is not a valid theory. You can't go the Freudian route of, ⁓ you know, they used to call it penis envy.

Robert Poirier (13:49)
There you go.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Peter Salerno (13:56)
If you don't have it, it's because it's unconscious, so you don't know you have it. That's not science. That's silly. Okay, so that's not a theory that can be, you know, held up as any sort of a testable method. You can't say that the people who say they don't have it just don't remember they have it because they repressed it. ⁓ That's the only... That's one of the main arguments I get. That's pushback. But the reality is this. There's studies based on... ⁓

a very natural experiment that's kind of really fascinating in identical twins being raised apart. And when we can study twins raised apart, regardless of social environment, regardless of family environment, we can determine how much of their personality is influenced by ⁓ genetic factors because they didn't have the same upbringing or the same parents or the same socioeconomic status.

Robert Poirier (14:52)
Right.

Dr. Peter Salerno (14:54)
And the concordance rates of these traits, the percentage of the time that one twin has it and the other twin has it, they are sky high as far as percentages. We're talking upwards of 70 % plus in twins who didn't even know the other existed. And if one of them has the disorder, the other one has the disorder, sometimes up to 77

 % of the time, 79 % of the time. There's twin studies out there that can verify this. I'm not making these numbers up. So ⁓ they've also done something called meta-analyses where they've measured... they've done a study of studies. Thousands and thousands of studies, millions of participants. So we're talking about a population sample of millions of people, and tens of thousands of different traits were assessed and studied.

And on the lower end of it, we're talking the low end, 50 % of differences in personality and psychology in general are attributable to genetic differences. Period. Period. I mean, you can argue what that data means, but it is what it is. There's just no way to contest that. ⁓ Does childhood trauma matter? Absolutely. Is it necessary?

for the development of a personality disorder? Absolutely not.

Robert Poirier (16:22)
Wow. So this has created a few questions. you talked about with twins and they're being, uh, you know, over 70 % chance them both having, if they have that gene, then both having a narcissistic personality disorder, NPD Does that work the same with siblings?

Dr. Peter Salerno (16:44)
No. No. The reason why identical twins are such an interesting experiment is because they share 100 % of DNA, right? Fraternal twins only share around 50%. And then when you have siblings that aren't twins, I mean, they could be as different as perfect strangers in temperament and personality. if you're

Robert Poirier (17:04)
Is

that the same with BPD?

Dr. Peter Salerno (17:07)
Yeah. ⁓

Robert Poirier (17:09)
Okay. That's interesting. And then when you were bringing it, when you were talking about it, when does, do you have research or do you know, when does NPD start showing up? When is it, when is it recognizable in children?

Dr. Peter Salerno (17:22)
So, showing up is kind of a... it's challenging thing to answer, but I'm glad that you're asking it that way because it's important. So, we're looking at a developmental process, and we have to factor in that there's different stages of development that matter as far as presentation and expression, So, if we're looking at diagnostic manuals, what they say is...

Personality disorders are these enduring pervasive patterns of thinking, feeling, perceiving, behaving that start to manifest at least as early as adolescence. Now, that doesn't mean that they can't manifest earlier than adolescence, but what it's saying is if we're going to call this a personality disorder rather than a behavioral disorder or an impulse control disorder or any other kind of disorder, that...

that there has to be an enduring and pervasive pattern of this that can be traced back at least to adolescence or early adulthood. That doesn't mean that it's not present or developing in childhood. And so, again, don't shoot the messenger, but there's literature on this that professionals who treat personality disorders in children. And so there's, I can give you some references to the books that have been written about personality disorders in children.

We're talking about ⁓ children where we're seeing traits of these disorders where there's not necessarily the full-blown disorder and a two-year-old is not going to look the same as a 30-year-old, but they have these types of traits. There's a lack of empathy, there's an inability to collaborate with peers, even like as toddlers. There's an inability to get along with their siblings. The tantrums are not age-appropriate. They're actually...

manipulative tantrums. Anytime there's a no or there's a boundary, there's a tantrum to get the parent to give in. It's disproportionate behavior to the age, and it's not the same thing as like ⁓ the terrible twos or the typical distress that we see in children who are learning to find their way in the world, right? It's also not the same as that primary narcissism that people claim we all have.

Robert Poirier (19:27)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Peter Salerno (19:39)
where kids are just self-centered because they don't have the wiring to be altruistic and think outside themselves. That's not the narcissism we're talking about here. We're talking about indicators of a lack of empathy, sometimes even a callousness, sometimes a hostility, and an inability ⁓ to be fair or equal in play with peers at school. ⁓ So you can see these traits manifesting

as early as age two in children. And you can actually see temperamental differences in ⁓ a lack of empathy in hospitals right after birth, where you see children not responding to environmental stimuli because they're indifferent to the cries of the other babies in the hospital. They're indifferent to ⁓ nurturing. They're indifferent to, I mean, and again,

Robert Poirier (20:11)
Wow.

Really?

Dr. Peter Salerno (20:36)
This isn't to pathologize and talk badly about kids. We're just talking about differences in temperament, these biological underpinnings. Some children are highly resilient to stress, some children are immune to stress because they don't have ⁓ pro-social emotions that other children have. And this is, I'm just literally spouting research that I can verify.

Robert Poirier (20:44)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Peter Salerno (21:03)
It's not, these aren't, these aren't, these ideas aren't coming from the laboratory of my own mind. This is stuff that's been studied and replicated and it's been demonstrated.

Robert Poirier (21:11)
That is so interesting. All right, you kind of have answered the next question, but this has come up several times where, ⁓

parent will be concerned that their child's going to become a narcissist because their ex has gotten remarried to someone's that's to someone that is a narcissist. So they're worried that because of the environment that now their child will become a narcissist. Can you maybe give them some rest on this?

Dr. Peter Salerno (21:21)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes, so, I mean, it's a legitimate concern in the sense that our environment can absolutely influence and shape our behavior and our perspective. However, our genetic propensities typically intervene on that. So what I mean by that is, if you're in an environment that is really not helpful, not conducive to pro-social behavior, you can start to adopt some of that behavior.

But there's a difference between somebody who adopts it because they are influenced or intimidated by it and somebody who adopts it because they like it. Right? And so that has to do with temperament. For example, I give this example a lot. It's a true story. You know, three elementary school kids go into a liquor store. One of them gets an idea that they want a shoplift because they think it's cool. It excites them to get away with, you shoplifting.

The other kid, it's their first experience doing that, they actually decide, wow, this was actually kind of exhilarating. I like it, I'm gonna go do it again. The other kid is mortified by it. They go home, they feel guilty, they tell their parents right away, they feel terrible for what they did, they never do it again. Those differences, same peer influence, same ringleader, completely different experiences following, has to do with our innate traits, our innate temperament. That varies across human beings.

We're not just passive recipients of environment 100%. We come with our own startup material. So we have different responses and different perceptions of our environment. And that includes even traumatic experiences. Not everybody responds to the same traumatic event in the same way. Not everybody responds to the same narcissistic parenting in the same way. You can't create a narcissist from scratch. You just can't create a narcissist from scratch from the environment. Like they're a blank canvas. They had a good

Robert Poirier (23:30)
Good point.

Dr. Peter Salerno (23:37)
⁓ opportunity at life and then a step-parent comes in and just completely reshapes them like clay. That's just not how works.

Robert Poirier (23:44)
That's great. All right. Let's move on to the most popular question and comment that I've received. Here we go.

Dr. Peter Salerno (23:52)
okay.

Robert Poirier (23:53)
is in your belief is someone who has NPD actually possessed by a demon or a wayward spirit. I mean, I can't tell you the number of times I've received that comment. What are your thoughts?

Dr. Peter Salerno (24:10)
Wow.

Okay. Well, I mean, as you know, I try to keep things scientific, so what that means is measurable, testable. That doesn't mean that I don't have any respect for people's religious beliefs. Historically, actually, ⁓ traits like cruelty, arrogance, lack of empathy, callousness, ⁓ were often described as possession or diabolical because we didn't yet have the science to

maybe explain this through temperament, biological factors, ⁓ even evolutionary psychology has shown that at some points in our history, whether you believe our history is 5,000 years old or millions of years, doesn't matter, at some point in our history, certain traits that we find in narcissism or psychopathy were necessary for survival and they were advantageous for us. They just no longer are. ⁓ So we have new information as to

and different explanations as to why these traits and these disorders might be manifesting. ⁓ For those people who are very spiritual and they're experiencing this as ⁓ like a possession or a diabolical condition, I wouldn't ⁓ say that they need to rule that out. However, ⁓ I would say if anything is going to be diabolical, it would be more like psychopathy.

Because psychopathy goes way beyond narcissism. I mean, all psychopaths are narcissistic, but then they have these... there's an additional severity of the callousness and the conning and the exploitation ⁓ and the sadism. So if we're gonna really talk about something demonic, typically psychopathy is what's been referred to historically as the real diabolical condition. ⁓

Robert Poirier (25:40)
Yeah.

Dr. Peter Salerno (26:07)
So I would look more into psychopathy than stopping at NPD. ⁓ But, you know, I think that people have their own belief systems, and I personally like to stay with ⁓ the data that can be measured and testable and things like that. And, you know, my field is psychology. It's not theology. I'm not a theologian. So I don't really have the right to be an authority on that.

⁓ But I will say I validate that historically these personalities, these characters, ⁓ I mean they're written about in every sacred text. I mean there's examples of these types of people wreaking havoc ⁓ throughout history, throughout human history. So I don't think it's like a completely illegitimate thought or belief, but I personally ⁓ come from the perspective of

To me, it's a human condition. It's in our human condition. And I would explain it by...

There's people who walk around who have an absence in them, and ⁓ that absence has historically been equated to demonic possession or influence. ⁓ Where I'm standing, ⁓ whichever etiology you want to subscribe to, the outcome is the same. So I think we all have that in common. We're experiencing it similarly. ⁓

Robert Poirier (27:32)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Peter Salerno (27:48)
So that's really fun.

Robert Poirier (27:48)
think that's what

it goes back to. When you talk to these people, hear from them, and when I say these people, I'm talking about the victims, the targets of the narcissist. ⁓ You hear the abuse that they've suffered. And I can understand why they would feel that this person is possessed. There is some sort of demonic possession there. It makes sense, but... ⁓

Dr. Peter Salerno (27:59)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (28:16)
I'm glad you addressed that. I've, I have received that so many times and, ⁓ thank you that, that definitely clears things up. I had a few say that you wouldn't even touch it. And I said, ⁓ he will. Don't you worry. He will.

Dr. Peter Salerno (28:21)
Yeah. Well, you know, just to add to that, put... No, no, no. I'm open to it. I'm open to it.

I'm open to it. And you know what? Science isn't anti-faith or spirit at all. Science is just what we know up to this point. And so even people who are not, you know, spiritual or religious in any capacity, who are legitimate scientists...

They're not going to say that's ridiculous or ludicrous. They're going to say up to this point we can't really measure that. But who knows, maybe in a hundred or two hundred years, just like things that we know now, like that we can actually see when we look at things like quantum physics and just the nature of the world, like it would have been supernatural, you know, a long time ago. So I'm not discounting anybody's belief system or faith or experiences.

I put out a post about a month ago about cautioning people, don't look for physical or visible signs of these disorders because there's no stereotype or insignia. I got so much backlash from this one post about a lot of people say that they can see it in the eyes of people and that people... ⁓ okay. So people...

Robert Poirier (29:39)
that you're going into my next question. Keep going, keep going.

Dr. Peter Salerno (29:43)
people have experienced this phenomenon of black eyes in psychopaths, right? Where ⁓ when a psychopath is in a fit of rage or aggression or in their most sadistic state, their eyes go completely black and it's almost like an indicator that they're possessed or they're not human or they're predatory to say the least. And my point was ⁓ not all of them

have eyes that turn black, you know? And so you have to be careful not to look for that as an indicator, because if you think that you're going to see that clearly, you're going to be prey. Because some of them have a ⁓ glimmer ⁓ and a sparkle in their green eyes or blue eyes while they're doing heinous things. And so to say that you can count on that as an indicator, to me,

puts people more at risk. And so it was misconstrued. I got so much heat, it turned into what I call a cyber mob. And it was actually so difficult to try to ⁓ validate the people that they were stockpiling these comments against me that I was invalidating them and ⁓ I thought you were a professional and I've followed you up until this point but now you're a jerk and all this stuff. No one asked for clarification.

Robert Poirier (30:58)
Right.

Dr. Peter Salerno (31:12)
They just immediately thought that they knew what I was doing. And I thought, how interesting that I would dedicate my entire career to helping people. And then in this one 60 second clip, I would just decide to pull a 180 and hate on everybody. But that's what most people thought that I did. So I took it down. They won. They bullied me into taking it down. But I've experienced that phenomenon in clinical practice. In fact,

I've never said this publicly, two accounts of working with an antisocial personality, I was assaulted in my clinical setting. And I've seen that look before. I've also had these people in my personal life, and so I've seen it. What I was trying to say is, it doesn't happen every time. It doesn't happen every time that ⁓ the pupils dilate or the eyes go black.

Robert Poirier (31:47)
Really?

Wow.

Dr. Peter Salerno (32:07)
So you need to be careful not to rely on that as an indicator. ⁓ And you need to not tell people you can spot a person by their eyes, because it's not true. That doesn't mean that people don't have isolated experiences of seeing that. So all of my posts and all of my content are very nuanced. And the people who try to dichotomize it, they're going to either love me or hate me, but that's not... I can't do anything about that.

You have to look at the nuances.

Robert Poirier (32:35)
No, no, you can't.

Yeah, and that kind of goes into this. So I was, ⁓

kind of the fifth party in a conversation in the conversation the other day. And one of the people had mentioned that they can tell when someone's a narcissist just by being around them a small amount of time, maybe even a few short, a few short times. They can literally tell when someone's a narcissist is that an aren't there degrees to it as well.

Dr. Peter Salerno (33:09)
So that, I wouldn't disagree with. And let me tell you why, because at least this is a therapy term, but there's such a thing as transference and counter-transference. And transference is essentially when ⁓ a patient kind of transfers their emotions or their feelings that they have about someone else onto the therapist. Counter-transference is when a therapist has an emotional response or reaction to the patient, right? And so...

What those two terms are saying is we typically, ⁓ we're familiar with things, and then if somebody's doing something that's familiar, we sort of you know, we can start relating to them in a way that we would relate to another person who we've experienced in that way. Then there's another phenomenon where we have, and there's regions of our brain that detect errors, contradictions, and inconsistencies, and it's designed to...

kind of not be a lie detector but to be a threat detector and to be suspicious, those things activate when we're being manipulated. Okay, so there is a phenomenon where you can be having a baseline, ⁓ pleasant, and calm mood and then you walk into the... and then somebody walks into the room and you can all of a sudden feel like complete garbage. That can happen, right?

And oftentimes that happens when you're dealing with somebody who is personality disordered. You can all of a sudden feel this wash of dread come over you. You can feel a sense of lack of safety. You can feel all of a sudden incompetent when you were feeling very confident. That's real. I mean, they've even done EEG recordings of brain activity where people can make other people feel things. But that's different than saying...

I can see in that person's eyes that they are a psychopath or a serial killer. That's just a little bit different.

Robert Poirier (35:05)
Yeah

But are there degrees

to narcissism?

Dr. Peter Salerno (35:15)
Yes. Yeah, we have two models for diagnosing narcissism, at least in the American manual, the American Psychiatric Association, the DSM. We have the categorical model, which is this qualitative, they either are or they aren't kind of checklist criteria. And then we have what's called the dimensional model or the alternative model, which measures the frequency and duration and severity of pathological traits. So things like grandiosity...

attention-seeking, deceitfulness, hostility, and everybody operates on a continuum of the severity of those traits. The ones that are more identifiable ⁓ are the ones that are really operating... well, I shouldn't say that because the ones that are more severe can also be more covert and more ⁓ better at concealing their manipulation.

Robert Poirier (36:10)
Yeah, it seems like if you want to say covert, it seems like those are really the most dangerous. everybody around them has been fooled, whether it's friends, family, ⁓ the people in the judicial system, all of that.

Dr. Peter Salerno (36:24)
Yeah,

absolutely.

Robert Poirier (36:26)
seems like they're the most dangerous.

Dr. Peter Salerno (36:28)
Well, mean, they gain social approval, ⁓ so then we also have to define covert. I mean, if you look up covert in the dictionary, it means to conceal, but a lot of people think it refers to people concealing their vulnerability, not their manipulation. When I think of someone who's operating in a covert way, I think of the literal definition of they're concealing their true intentions. They're not...

hiding their vulnerability. ⁓ to me, somebody who's a covert narcissist is somebody who is just as narcissistic as the outward extroverted grandiose person that we would see like a mile away, but they're just doing a really good job of concealing those traits so that they blend in without being ⁓ identified. And then they have an advantage over people because they're ingratiating them. They're winning favor with them all while pulling the wool over their eyes.

Robert Poirier (37:27)
Yeah. Yeah. So the next one's more of a statement. I want you to tell me what this is all about. And it's, have, I have, ⁓ structured this gender neutral because literally I receive this or messages like this from just almost just as many men as women. So, ⁓ spouse never wants to resolve any issues, never will admit when they are wrong or say they are sorry.

Dr. Peter Salerno (37:37)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (37:54)
It's all about winning and being right and in control. use fear, threats, threats of divorce, bullying, and devaluing ⁓ the target to tear them apart. They're emotionally immature. What is all that about?

Dr. Peter Salerno (38:08)
Mm-hmm.

Well, mean, so.

Robert Poirier (38:13)
Is

it control mostly? mean.

Dr. Peter Salerno (38:16)
Here's where it does have to get nuanced and unfortunately I can't give a it's this or that. There are people who are deeply wounded who relate that way in relationships from a defensive perspective as a defensive strategy. But the difference between someone who's doing that defensively and offensively, the defensive person ⁓ doesn't want to be operating that way. And so when the going gets tough, they're going to be willing to collaborate.

Robert Poirier (38:20)
Yeah. Right.

Dr. Peter Salerno (38:46)
to change that behavior. The ones who are not willing to collaborate to change that behavior, and if all of those things you listed are enduring and pervasive and they're the rule rather than the exception, that's when a clinician would start to wonder about if there's a personality disorder present. Because personality disorders don't collaborate, they don't problem solve, they don't self-correct, they don't self-monitor or self-reflect. They escalate ⁓ problems with

drama, and they actually sustain problems and create new ones with no intention of resolving either. And so if that's happening on a consistent basis, and you can almost do like a longitudinal study of the relationship and see this person is this way more often than not, and they have no interest in changing, I would start to wonder about the presence of a personality disorder, and those traits or features you mentioned could be a number of different ones.

Robert Poirier (39:43)
Yeah.

Okay. This was, this was interesting. young lady wrote in and she said that her mom was recently diagnosed with NPD and I I'm taking it. She didn't say her age. didn't write back taking it. She's out of college now or maybe she's in college, but her mom was recently diagnosed with NPD and she says it all makes sense.

As before she moved away, she never had any privacy. Her mom was constantly spying on her phone, her emails, snooping in her room, her car, always invading her privacy.

Is that about control? What is that about?

Dr. Peter Salerno (40:27)
Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, were you gonna add to that?

Robert Poirier (40:31)
Yeah, because I, you know, it's interesting because the victims, it seems like they're always wanting to know why, correct? Like, why is this happening? Why did this happen? This isn't normal. Is it me? But why, why are they doing this? Why are they doing this? And I think that's underlying kind of where she is with this.

Dr. Peter Salerno (40:43)
See ya.

I would tell that person, it would probably make sense to you if you did a deep dive into the trait of entitlement. when we talk, I yes, think people who are personality disordered have lots of different motivations for wanting to be in control. They want to narratives, they want to dominate the relationship dynamic, ⁓ but what

what she's describing is somebody who feels entitled to behave that way. So it's not actually—and we'll have disagreements here—but it's not actually the right of a parent to invade privacy to that extent. I mean, if you're under 18 and you're a child, you do have to abide by the rules ⁓ of the—

the household and your parents are the authority, whether you like it or not, but there's a difference between boundary violations and, you know, kind of weaponizing your parenting. That to me sounds like that person was weaponizing their parenting, violating boundaries, invading privacy, unless there was good reason, like if the parent was finding these manifestos of, I'm gonna shoot up the school. But if we're talking about a, you know, a high-functioning person who

Robert Poirier (42:11)
Right, right, right. Then you understand, right? That makes sense.

Dr. Peter Salerno (42:18)
is getting along and isn't causing trouble and they just happen to have, you know, journals and diaries. I don't think people should be meddling in that. ⁓ But there's a sense of entitlement there where there are no bounds. so that, know, narcissistic people, that's their defining trait, grandiosity. Grandiosity involves self-importance. There's no such thing as equality. They feel like everyone else is beneath them.

and they feel entitled to things that nobody else, entitled to special treatment, entitled to not having to play by the social rules.

Robert Poirier (42:57)
makes sense. All right. So this is about BPD borderline personality disorder. Husband wrote in says his wife has borderline personality disorder tendencies,

splitting black and white thinking, fear of abandonment. he's concerned because his wife will not go and get diagnosed. She will not go to a therapist. She, she will not. He also said that, ⁓ it was, it was unclear, but one of his wife's parents was diagnosed, ⁓ years ago with bipolar.

Dr. Peter Salerno (43:31)
Okay.

Robert Poirier (43:31)
And

the other parent has, uh, the other parent never was diagnosed, has their own issues. And one of his wife's siblings has been clinically diagnosed with, uh, BPD. I don't know if I've stated that. So his question was not so much of what should he, it was a, should he do? But kind of.

Dr. Peter Salerno (43:50)
Okay.

Robert Poirier (43:59)
How does he manage this? Like if you're in that situation, like should you kind of think, okay, yeah, there's probably a high percentage chance that my wife has BPD. I mean, is that, and do you get my question there?

Dr. Peter Salerno (44:13)
Yeah. Well, mean, this is coming from the DSM. ⁓ BPD has been shown to be five times more common in first-degree biological relatives. And I don't, again, that's not a panic. I don't want people to panic when they hear that. It's such good news because it informs treatment. for the ones who have, for people who suffering from BPD who actually are willing to go to treatment,

If you go to a person who knows what causes the disorder, you're going to have a much better chance of getting successful treatment. BPD also operates on a continuum too, from mild to moderate to severe. So I would want that individual to... he'd have to know what he's dealing with there, ⁓ if it is in fact BPD.

Robert Poirier (45:01)
And I think the issue there is his

wife does not want to get diagnosed. So you have somebody that if she does, it's going to be untreated. I I wanted to, I wanted to write back and say divorce, but I didn't find a good attorney.

Dr. Peter Salerno (45:09)
Well,

You know, so here's the thing. There's literature

that actually teaches people who are going to stay in relationships how to manage ⁓ a relationship with someone who has a personality disorder. And some people do opt to stay in for whatever reason. Kids or finances or co-mingled business. ⁓ They don't believe in divorce, you know, and I respect all of that. But you have to have realistic expectations of the relationship. And so if you're going to choose to do that,

you need to study on how to relate to someone who has a disorder like this. ⁓

Robert Poirier (45:51)
Is there a good chance

that, you know, you think about his, his, his wife, uh, is there a good chance that, you know, you've got a parent who was diagnosed with bipolar. You have a, I don't know. The other parent has said issues, undiagnosed issues. I don't know what those issues are. You've got a sibling who was clinically diagnosed with BPD. Is there a fair chance that his wife might have BPD or not?

Dr. Peter Salerno (46:20)
Well, like I said, it's five times more common in first-degree biological relatives. ⁓ Again, that's not me, that's the DSM. Shoot the DSM, not the messenger. So what I would say is, and I want to go back to what you said about you can't diagnose. All that means is ⁓ a therapist or a professional who has the legal authority to diagnose mental disorders

Robert Poirier (46:23)
Yeah.

Dr. Peter Salerno (46:48)
they can't diagnose someone they haven't personally treated. And what that typically means is, what it literally means is, you can't slap a medical coded diagnosis on someone's permanent medical record unless you have treated them in a clinical setting. It does not mean you can't take information in and say, you have just described this pathology. So if someone came up to me on the street and said, my ⁓ spouse,

is drinking 16 units of whiskey per day. They have been incapable of stopping on their own. Their father and their grandfather are both substance abusers as well. This has been going on for 17 years. They haven't successfully graduated three different rehab stints. What do you think is going on with them? I'm not going to say, well, I can't diagnose. I mean, they're not a patient. It's clear as day what that is.

Right? So this idea that we can't diagnose... Yeah, we can't officially put a diagnostic label on somebody's permanent medical record ⁓ and code it with insurance, but you know, you can tell a leopard by their spots, right? So this gets people so scared about that, like, I know you can't diagnose. Well, no, if you describe something to me, I'm going to validate what I'm hearing. I mean... ⁓

Robert Poirier (48:10)
That makes sense.

well, as you know, divorce or with breaking up with somebody, everybody seems like most people want to label their ex, whether it's an ex spouse, ex partner as a narcissist, right? ⁓ but so many comments about divorce proceedings, and all the false allegations, the smear campaigns, the, ⁓

Dr. Peter Salerno (48:20)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (48:35)
You know, the projections of what they're actually guilty of and projecting it onto the target, you know, they're playing the victim card and able to fool everybody from friends, family, know, you were talking about the justice system earlier. That's common. Isn't it? I mean, that's, and it seems like, you know, I think when you, were talking about it earlier with the covert is that

really common with them where they're able to do that. And is that kind of their, you know, just the way they operate. mean, I don't know if that makes sense or not with what I'm asking, but it like that would, there was a, that was a reoccurring theme that I kept hearing a lot in, in, people that were either had gone, were in a relationship with somebody that they suspected of having NPD

Dr. Peter Salerno (49:23)
Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, I mean, so these... If we're talking about the justice system and the high conflict divorce and the smear campaigns and all that, these not... These disorders are not recognized in the court system or in the legal system, right? So, and so that's another thing I want to caution people. Even if you... No.

Robert Poirier (49:47)
I didn't know that. Tell me more.

Dr. Peter Salerno (49:49)
They're not recognized as something that is going to inform a decision for custody, ⁓ financial obligations, ⁓ assets. ⁓ You don't really have any advantage if you get your partner or soon-to-be ex-partner diagnosed with a personality disorder in court. It's not going to inform anything legally. ⁓ I am advocating to change that. That's going to be like my...

life's work is to reform that in the system because if the system can understand that these are pervasive and enduring patterns of abuse, then of course it should inform custody, it should inform all of that ⁓ in legal proceedings, and this type of invisible ⁓ abuse needs to be recognized for what it is. These are crimes as far as I'm concerned. ⁓

So, but right now, I think a lot of people think, well, if I can just get my partner in to see somebody who can diagnose them, it's one, that's not gonna change anything, you know, legally or...

Robert Poirier (51:00)
Is

that just in where are you in California? Is that just in car or is that because I have been told that that does have at least where I am that that does have a bearing on I mean I'm not trying to dispute you but that's

Dr. Peter Salerno (51:04)
Yeah.

You

No, no. This is good. Well, so yeah, mean, it's sure... it certainly is... it's geographic specific, but...

Robert Poirier (51:28)
Probably just like splitting 50-50 custody. mean, every state probably varies with

Dr. Peter Salerno (51:32)
Right.

Some states are no-fault states, some are, you know, if you do this, you get this. ⁓ I'm saying, though, ⁓ using the terms like narcissist, NPD, or whatever, aren't going to give you much of an advantage in court. Coercive control is something that's being recognized in some areas, in some states, in some countries now as like an official crime, where people are being...

intimidated and manipulated and coerced into things that result in parental alienation or even grandparent alienation, things like that. ⁓ But as far as like we're talking about like social services or child protective services, if a parent has BPD or NPD, they're not going to lose visitation or custody of their kids because of that.

Robert Poirier (52:22)
Well, in the court system too,

like they haven't been trained. mean, no fault of theirs, but they haven't been trained to recognize and to diagnose either though. You know,

Dr. Peter Salerno (52:26)
No. No.

No, they haven't.

you know, I do think that there needs to be some reform when it comes to that, but in fairness to that, the system isn't designed to ⁓ police emotional disputes. I think they should start doing it, but they're not designed to do that. They're designed to prove innocence versus guilt. And that's why this is so tricky, is because the evidence to prove guilt is invisible with these crimes.

Robert Poirier (52:45)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's true.

Dr. Peter Salerno (52:59)
I think there should be some education on that, ⁓ that not all crimes are visible.

Robert Poirier (53:04)
And,

you know, those in the judicial system, especially going back to what you're talking about with, with divorce proceedings, you know, they're so tired of hearing my ex is a narcissist. You know, they are. Hey, do you have a few more minutes? I've just got a couple more questions. Okay. All right. So jumping back, can a healthy environment, a healthy environment offset the heredity of NPD?

Dr. Peter Salerno (53:20)
Yeah, of course.

⁓ A supportive environment, and support doesn't just mean nurture, I want to make that clear. It means how to set appropriate boundaries, how to identify the harsh truths, ⁓ how to ⁓ figure out what's in the best... Discipline isn't one size fits all, and intervention isn't one size fits all. But yeah, a good support system can ⁓ buffer or... ⁓

⁓ reduce potential severity of these traits in some children. Absolutely. They've done studies on children with what are known as callous unemotional traits, which are the traits that are precursors to antisocial behavior and psychopathy. ⁓ The right environments can actually mitigate a lot of that potential damage. So yes, it's not hopeless. It's not hopeless at all.

Robert Poirier (54:21)
That's That's good to hear.

I know that a lot of times someone who has NPD does not go for treatment. But let's say there are the occasions where they do. Let's say that somebody has been diagnosed and they're like, you know what? I have had one failed relationship after another. have driven people away. Yes, I have been diagnosed.

Dr. Peter Salerno (54:47)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (54:47)
What can they do? Is it hopeless? Can they be treated?

Dr. Peter Salerno (54:54)
So again, we have to look at the...

Robert Poirier (54:58)
Because I

think about like, okay, I've got to let, you know, I'm left-handed, but I want to learn how to throw, know, if we're talking about, you know, being hereditary, like I'm left-handed, I throw left-handed, I brush my teeth left-handed. I want to learn to throw right-handed. I want to start brushing my teeth right-handed. I know that's very simplistic compared to what we're talking about, but.

Dr. Peter Salerno (55:05)
Yeah.

No, that's a perfect

analogy because what would it require for someone who's left-handed to become right-handed? Is it possible? Yes.

Robert Poirier (55:26)
It's possible, it's just tough.

Dr. Peter Salerno (55:28)
Well, just like it would be very tough for someone who's trait-introverted to become an extrovert, but they could do it. So we have to look at narcissism that way. This is... ⁓ Narcissism is what's known as an ego-syntonic disorder. The person who has narcissism is not perceiving that the problems are originating within themselves. So they don't see any need to change. Just like an introvert...

They don't want to try to... Not a lot of introverts want to try to be extroverted. Maybe some of them want to, and if they want to, they are going to have to try. It's going to be a lot harder for them than somebody who's a little bit more naturally extroverted, right? So it's the same thing. It's like they don't have the mechanisms naturally to do it, but if they put a lot, lot, a lot of effort, we're talking a lot, some can improve. And so we've seen this with...

mild to moderate NPD if we're looking at the dimensional model. If they have the right intervention and the right therapist and they have enough collaborative capacity, ⁓ which that's not going to be a consistent thing. mean, you anticipate dropouts from therapy with narcissists a lot. ⁓ But they've done studies on mentalization-based treatment, schema therapy, ⁓ transference-focused therapy.

where those have actually shown to be very promising for people with NPD. Now, people who end up in therapy... It's not true that narcissists don't go to therapy. They don't go to therapy announcing they're narcissistic. They go in for depression, they go in for substance abuse, they go in after they got laid off, they go in after they got in a ⁓ fist fight, they go in after they're, you know, getting threatened to be divorced. So they show up a lot. It's just that they don't show up and say, you know, I'm a card-carrying narcissist.

Robert Poirier (57:23)
Right.

Dr. Peter Salerno (57:24)
So, but if a therapist gets one in the room and they know how to assess for it, and they also are trained in mentalization-based treatment or schema therapy, there's a good chance that some can improve. But it's not like... we're not talking about four sessions. We're talking about a long, long term... you ⁓ know, there's research that shows that for every one therapy session of a high-functioning non-personality disordered person,

a personality-disordered person would need six.

Robert Poirier (57:57)
⁓ shit. Wow.

Dr. Peter Salerno (57:59)
Right? So now add

that up, right? So let's say a person who is struggling with anxiety goes to therapy through their insurance 42 times a year. For every one of those, you'd need six for a personality disorder, right? In sum, in sum, but we have to remember too, it's not in their nature to collaborate. So as soon as they hear something they don't like, they typically start devaluing and demeaning the therapist. They think

Robert Poirier (58:11)
my gosh. But there is hope. That's the big thing. There is hope. There's yeah, there's some.

Yeah.

Dr. Peter Salerno (58:27)
They deem them incompetent and then they drop out. ⁓ It's a fine line with that relationship and that treatment frame. And there are professionals who have dedicated their entire careers to treating personality disorders. ⁓ There's a ⁓ really, mean, highly, highly credentialed, incredible pioneer in the field named Joel Paris. He's a Canadian, well, he works in Canada, he's a psychiatrist.

He's opened two clinics specifically for the treatment of BPD. ⁓ Yeah. He's also the one who does the research on, a lot of them come in and report they don't have any trauma histories. So if you want to look at the data there, it's fascinating. ⁓ But yeah, he successfully treats them. ⁓ There's a book called A Concise Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder. It's like less than 100 pages. ⁓ He talks about the...

Robert Poirier (58:59)
Really? And success?

Wow. And he's had success.

Dr. Peter Salerno (59:21)
the best interventions and treatment efficacy and things like that. But it also does operate on a continuum. mean, there are severe cases where people ⁓ are malignant and abusive and dangerous and they're never gonna change. They don't want to. That malignant nature is working for them.

Robert Poirier (59:43)
Okay.

Well, I'm going to, I'm going to leave it with the positive note. There is some hope.

Dr. Peter Salerno (59:49)
There's some hope for some, yeah. you know, even with BPD, they're the most help-seeking out of the cluster B personalities because 90 % of the time they have a comorbid condition, like a mood condition or something else that's really interfering with their life. So that's actually bad for them, but it's good in the sense that that's what motivates them to go seek help, is their mood disorder or their eating disorder or something like that. So...

hopefully they can get into the right hands with the right clinician when they seek help and that therapist can ⁓ treat the behavior that needs to be treated in addition to the mood problems or the... ⁓

Robert Poirier (1:00:31)
You

know, I know we talked about before, but BPD, ⁓

kind of feel sort of sad for him. Cause I do feel like it is very lonely. Is that

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:00:41)
I'm gonna say this, and this might shock your audience since you've interviewed me before, but ⁓ I don't have any disparaging or hateful things to say about people with these disorders. Especially with BPD, they suffer in their own ways, and they suffer immensely. Now, I'm the kind of person who doesn't believe that personal suffering justifies being cruel to others.

But when we're talking about it, we do need to be able to hold both. people that, you know, people with BPD suffer immensely, and so they need their suffering to be alleviated. At the same time, I don't believe, because there are people that have been absolutely brutalized in childhood, and they don't hurt other people. So we can't say it's okay to be this...

harmful to others simply because of the harm that that's been inflicted or the harm or the suffering they're feeling. don't believe it's one or the other. It has to be you're suffering and you need to not make others suffer. And you know that that is a hard pill to swallow. ⁓ But I think there's I think that we should have ⁓ you can have empathy for someone and hold them accountable at the same time.

Robert Poirier (1:02:02)
That's good. Peter, Dr. Slarno, what did we miss?

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:02:05)
I don't know, I I know we've talked in the past of how angry and hostile people get about this information and then we see it in the comments and I think it's...

Robert Poirier (1:02:17)
Why is that? Why do they get,

I mean, cause you're research based. You're not like waking up and saying, is what I believe, or I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to go against the norm. No, you, I mean, you've shared it. You have data. Why do they get so upset?

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:02:33)
I'll tell you what, if I were really smart, I'd just jump on the bandwagon that it's trauma, and then everyone would leave me alone. So clearly, don't have a... you know, this isn't the best way to win ⁓ friends, right? ⁓ So I want people to know the truth because I've personally and professionally experienced individuals who were consciously and deliberately harming others, and they were getting away with it because everyone was saying, well, they're just using defense mechanisms because they're wounded.

Robert Poirier (1:02:38)
Yeah! Yeah!

Yeah, you're rowing upstream.

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:03:04)
And that's a bunch of BS. It's BS. And so people who know they've been consciously and deliberately harmed, they have the right to know what that's all about, and that's what I'm adding to the equation. But I will say that too, I think people... It's easy for people to lack moral restraint when they're insulting someone they don't know. And so it's easy for them to see something I put out, and they don't see me as a human being, they see me as...

you know, a bot or AI or I'm just on their screen so it's impersonal so they can say whatever they want. ⁓ It's not true. ⁓ They shouldn't say, I yes, technically freedom of speech, harassment, threats, insults, it's completely unnecessary. I no one's trying to harm anyone with this information. I didn't even do the research, I'm sharing it, which is the funny thing. It's not like I'm actually in the laboratory conducting it, I'm just sharing it.

⁓ I have the courage to share it. It's not convenient for a lot of people, but you know, I'd want to know. It's the same thing with like, if you have a genetic predisposition to heart disease, ⁓ I would want to know.

Robert Poirier (1:04:16)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I appreciate the work you're doing. I do. And I appreciate the message you're getting out there and you being so bold to, ⁓ to share it and not being afraid. I know you get a lot of hate. I know you've got a lot of love, but you also get a lot of hate and I appreciate it. ⁓ and again, it resonates with so many people, so many victims also. mean, I get, you know, from the victims, I get that all the time and anybody that's

You know, anybody that's willing to kind of push against the norm, I love it. I love it. and I appreciate what you're doing.

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:04:50)
I will have to say, ⁓ it's not that it's not scary. I mean, it can be terrifying. So when I use courage, know, courage is doing something even though it scares you to death. I wouldn't say that it's ⁓ confidence or bravery, I would say it's courage. Because it does hurt to get a lot of pushback. And it hurts to be, especially some of the people who have escalated to privately threatening.

Like, we're talking about research here. We're not talking about your political views or your faith views or anything like that. to escalate to the point where, ⁓ take this down or else, I mean, that blows my mind, but it really shouldn't because I know the types of people who escalate to that exist. yeah, it's been extreme. There's had to been ⁓ protective things in place.

Robert Poirier (1:05:20)
No way, seriously.

Peter, I had no idea it's gotten that extreme.

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:05:50)
within the last few years because of some people that radically got, ⁓ you know, justified in issuing the threats and things like that. Not common, but once or twice.

Robert Poirier (1:06:03)
my gosh. I had no idea. I just thought, gosh, I had no idea. I mean, I've had, I've never had threats. Of course we were talking about before, you know, I've had people upset because they think it's a dad that it's a dad only podcast. No, guess what? More than it's like 65 % plus of my listeners and downloads are females. You know, it's not, it's not, you know, pro dad, anti mom. It's definitely not.

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:06:26)
Yeah, I love that.

Robert Poirier (1:06:32)
But I had no idea that it's like that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry you've experienced that and you better stay safe, man. I tell you what, because you're extremely helpful and valuable to so many people.

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:06:43)
Well, I know I'm not

the only one. In fact, somebody, a colleague of mine mentioned that there was, that Dr. Romany, I'm sure you're familiar with Dr. Romany, she apparently was physically accosted at a conference or something. Someone tried to rush the stage and attack her or so. ⁓ Again, we're talking about mental health and we're mental health professionals and we have the damn right to do so. ⁓ So, I don't...

Robert Poirier (1:06:52)
Yeah.

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:07:11)
I don't understand where this is coming from, where people feel like they're trying to...

Robert Poirier (1:07:14)
It seems like that's almost like a cardiologist getting up there talking about the harms of smoking and a smoker rushing the stage.

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:07:22)
It's exactly like that. It's ludicrous, but it's happening, you Yeah.

Robert Poirier (1:07:29)
Well, I'm so sorry. Hey, on a happier note, let's talk about what all you're doing. You talked about your, you know, you've talked about your books, talked about your upcoming book. You also provide counseling coaching sessions. Do you mind going into that a little bit so people can.

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:07:44)
Yeah,

I'm actually, I'm officially retired, I retired my license as a psychotherapist. ⁓ And I'm not gonna lie, one of the reasons is because ⁓ when you talk about this content, you get reported for sharing research and there's a lot of liability in sharing research apparently, even though that's, to me, is silly. But that's not the only reason. I'm doing much more education and training, so...

Robert Poirier (1:07:51)
wow, okay.

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:08:13)
⁓ Upcoming I have in October, I've contracted with a company where I'm going to be putting on trainings for therapists ⁓ for continuing education. And then ⁓ I'm dedicating most of my time to ⁓ doing workshops and recovery, like coaching programs for people who are recovering from this type of abuse, pathological relationship abuse, and then ⁓ just continuing writing books. I have a new book coming out in about a month called

⁓ cruelty by nature and it's going to be all about the science of intentional abuse and how it's undeniable that some abuse is intentional.

Robert Poirier (1:08:53)
of this coaching

for those that have been abused. Is that virtual or?

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:08:56)
Yeah. Yeah,

it's all virtual. ⁓ I co-facilitate a recovery program with a ⁓ narcissistic abuse coach and we do 12-week recovery programs. ⁓ And then we also, ⁓ and then I also just offer like kind of like one-off consultation sessions. They're not therapy sessions, but just people who need education on what they're dealing with and sort of...

you know, appreciate my perspective, so that's an option too. ⁓ Do you have an in-person live event ⁓ coming up in October in Southern California? ⁓ Like, a sort of an intense, ⁓ intensive trauma bond breaking group kind of retreat. ⁓ That's for women. And then, ⁓ but yeah, I mean, I'm around, I'm on Instagram, I'm on YouTube, I'm...

Just trying to put more of this content out there and ⁓ see if I can help people make sense of nonsense.

Robert Poirier (1:10:03)
Well,

I'll put links, I'll put all your links below and you know, anytime I publish it and Peter again, thank you. I mean, you literally are you're my favorite guest to have on and always enjoy the conversation. enjoy how you're, you know, again, you're pushing the envelope. You're pushing, you're rowing upstream. and

You know, I didn't, when I first put you out there, I didn't know how you'd be taken. And I know you sort of cautioned me and had given me some, um, you had shared with me some of your past experience of some of the hate that you've received. I thought, yeah, that's fine. I'll, I'll put them out there though. And to see again, how much you resonated with so many people. like, this guy's on the right track. Like he knows what he's talking about and.

Obviously, you know, people can relate and, they agree with them. ⁓ so again, I just, I thank you for taking time out from all that you're saying you're extremely busy and I was hesitant to reach out and man, you returned it so quick. And I'm like, ⁓ this is wonderful. So

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:11:09)
No, we shall be fine.

No, reach out

anytime. I appreciate you, Robert. And honestly, you were the first to reach out for a podcast. ⁓ no, but I do caution.

Robert Poirier (1:11:20)
and you were dumb enough to come on. I'm kidding. You were nice enough

to come on. You're like, ⁓ I have nothing to do.

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:11:27)
I always caution people

who reach out now, like, you sure you want me on? Because there's going to be some controversy in your comments. ⁓ But no, I really appreciate it. And you've always treated me very collaboratively and calmly and kindly. so again, and that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to have discussions. We're not trying to divide. So I appreciate you having me on for a third time.

Robert Poirier (1:11:49)
And

look, I love, I love having differences of opinions and that's why I have this. mean, I don't want to have, you know, I mean, I'm on the same page with you. ⁓ but there's people I have on that sometimes I completely disagree, but I also, if I'm given one opinion, I want to give another opinion and, ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. But, ⁓ so

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:12:11)
It's only fair, yeah.

Robert Poirier (1:12:14)
Hey Peter, thank you again for coming on the podcast. Really thank you. And thank you all for listening to dad to dad's podcast. You can find us on Spotify or Apple, as well as most platforms. You can also find us on YouTube and Instagram. Don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button and feel free to leave a comment. I imagine I will get some comments on this and I cannot wait to read them. read every one of them. And also I love having the show suggestions as well. Thank you all again. And we'll talk to you next time.

Dr. Peter Salerno (1:12:17)
Thank you for having me.