Breaking the Silence: Men's Mental Health - Dustin Hogan

In this episode, Robert speaks with Dustin Hogan, a specialist in men's mental health. They discuss the common struggles men face, including the search for purpose, the impact of social media, and the importance of vulnerability. Dustin shares insights on how childhood trauma affects adult relationships and emphasizes the need for men to connect and support each other. The conversation highlights the significance of therapy and actionable strategies for improving mental health, encouraging men to reach out for help and build meaningful connections.

Takeaways

• Men often struggle with finding their purpose and direction.
• Vulnerability is a crucial aspect of mental health for men.
• Social media can exacerbate feelings of inadequacy and anxiety.
• Childhood trauma can have lasting effects on mental health and relationships.
• Building connections with other men is essential for emotional support.
• Therapy should include actionable strategies for improvement.
• Men are often fixers, which can hinder their willingness to seek help.
• The importance of emotional awareness and communication skills is paramount.
• Younger generations are more proactive in seeking mental health support.
• It's vital to find the right fit in therapy for effective support.

How to find Dustin Hogan
IG https://www.instagram.com/iamdustinhogan/
https://therapyfordudes.com/
Dustin's Ted Talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nWcEtUV4do

Dad to Dads Podcast on IG https://www.instagram.com/dadtodads

Transcript

Robert Poirier (00:00)
Dustin Hogan, welcome to the Dad to Dad's Podcast.

Dustin Hogan (00:03)
Thanks for having me, man. Excited to connect and chat with you today.

Robert Poirier (00:07)
Well, look, I'm really excited about having you on and you know, it's a conversation that I've been wanting to have. I feel it's extremely important. know, you're a specialist with men's mental health. It is something that's ⁓ that I know a lot of men struggle with. You know, a lot of men are faced with struggles, with challenges today. And, it's something that we combat. We hold things in and I was

Fortunately, I found you on YouTube. I was watching a TED talk and you were featured on there and my this guy's impressive I'm gonna see if he'll come on and man. I appreciate I definitely appreciate you coming on

Dustin Hogan (00:42)
You

I appreciate you having me, man. Excited to dig in today to a very, very important topic.

Robert Poirier (00:52)
So you are from the great state of Canada. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. ⁓ I do not want to get political. I had to throw that in there. I think all that has died down, thankfully. ⁓ I don't know. I don't know how riled up you guys had. You guys got about it. But some of it here was pretty funny. you know, it's like, what is coming out of his mouth now?

Dustin Hogan (01:01)
I love it. A little bit, yeah.

That's

funny.

Robert Poirier (01:21)
But

but I I had to throw that in there. But yeah, you're you're from Canada from Calgary, right?

Dustin Hogan (01:24)
Yeah.

Yes, yeah, up in Calgary, Alberta and love it up here. Beautiful part of the country with the mountains. We've got beautiful cities. So yeah, love, love living here.

Yeah.

Robert Poirier (01:36)
me ask you something.

I have in the past struggled with who am I? What is my purpose? Is that common for men?

Dustin Hogan (01:44)
Very common, very, very common. And quite frankly, I it's still something that I wrestle with on sometimes a daily and weekly basis of really what kind of an impact am I making in the world? And I think for men, we're so goal-driven, we're so purpose-driven that if we're lacking that sense of purpose, we're essentially lacking a sense of direction. And I don't know about you, but moving through life at times, directionless as a man,

Robert Poirier (01:45)
Really?

Dustin Hogan (02:13)
my gosh, I might as well be naked walking down the street, because it feels that vulnerable. yeah, a lot of the guys that I work with, even very high performing men, guys that on paper have everything together, still feeling lost or trying to figure out their direction, it can be ⁓ a terrifying place to be.

Robert Poirier (02:16)
Yeah.

Yeah, I, you know, I've had that conversation with those, my peer group and we've talked about it and the majority are, but you know, it's not near as large of a sample size as those that you speak with. was curious about that, but that is that definitely for a while. I mean, and I still struggle with it. Some not near as much as I did even five, 10, 15 years ago. Like, what am I doing?

Dustin Hogan (02:59)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (02:59)
You

know, am I content with work? Yeah, I am. I'm happy with work and you know, I have goals there. I'm achieving success with this and that, but just that inner void, maybe I guess that's what it is of, you know, there's something more. I feel like I'm not contributing, whether it's I'm not contributing enough to society. ⁓ you know, just that void. was, I was curious about that. That's, that's

Dustin Hogan (03:10)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (03:24)
I guess in some ways it's refreshing to hear that other men are faced with that too.

Dustin Hogan (03:28)
Yeah, mean, quite frankly, every single day I'm having conversations with guys about this. And I think a piece to highlight even what you said there is work. As men, tend to default to career, to work, to business, to find that sense of purpose. And nothing wrong with that. But when that takes up 100 % of what our focus is, if we lose that, often a.

big part of our identity is lost as well. So that's one of the things that I've been really working hard over the years with myself is yes, my business, my career, I'm absolutely passionate about it, huge sense of purpose there, but where else can I find purpose as well? Where else can I set goals in my life? Whether it's fitness, whether it's family, whether it's passions. ⁓ So that's, mean, sometimes easier said than done, because I love what I do. ⁓

but it's an important piece of the puzzle to be having a conversation about.

Robert Poirier (04:24)
Yeah. And think as you were talking, I was thinking about it. ⁓ fitness was definitely something that helped to fill that void, but I think a bigger part of that was, ⁓ finding a way to give back, you know, kind of, and not, not necessarily stroking a check, you know, donating money, but finding ways to give back of my time to others. ⁓ and that seemed to help fill that up.

Dustin Hogan (04:38)
Hmm.

Robert Poirier (04:54)
It's interesting with you say that. let's tell me what you're seeing out there with men. Like what are you what are guys faced with? What are the challenges? What are you seeing?

Dustin Hogan (04:56)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, that could be a 10 hour conversation. Just, you know, some of the some of the things that I talk about. But, you know, across the board, a lot of the guys that I work with, you know, anxiety, stress. mean, you know, just take a look at the state of the world these days by turning on the news. It can be a stressful place for for all of us to be. And I think as men, ⁓ you know, and this is certainly generalization, but as men, we tend to take a lot of that pressure on and, you know,

Robert Poirier (05:07)
Ha ha ha.

Dustin Hogan (05:32)
put it on our shoulders and a lot of the guys, they'll reach out to me and they'll just be like, man, I feel like I'm carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders. being able to talk about that is a huge relief for a lot of guys. One of the things that I also see, just from an emotional awareness and even an emotional intelligence standpoint, really understanding what's going on for us.

as men at an emotional level. one of the simple tools that I share with so many guys is just a simple feelings wheel, being able to identify what's actually going on at an emotional standpoint because so many of us weren't taught how to.

properly express our emotions. A lot of guys will default to saying, you know, I'm fine or I'm good or I'm bad, none of which are emotions. So being able to articulate with accuracy, with precision, what's actually going on from an emotional standpoint is incredibly powerful. And one of the reasons that a lot of guys reach out to me is they're really struggling to find that.

that language and then it impacts them at home, impacts them at work, and then they're just feeling lost because they're not able to express what's actually going on.

Robert Poirier (06:41)
Do you feel, I have my opinion on this, but do you feel the mental challenges, I don't want to say mental health, maybe it is mental health, but the challenges men face mentally, emotionally are increasing? Do you feel like they're greater today than say 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago?

Dustin Hogan (07:04)
And that's a tough question. It's something that I, you know, wrestle with myself. I think, you know, perception is maybe that it's it's not getting better. It's getting worse because we're talking about it more. think, you know, 20, 30, 40. Yeah, exactly. know, 40 years ago, it wasn't as open as it is now. But the other side of the coin is, you know, I'm seeing a lot of younger men reach out to me and they're reaching out to me proactively.

Robert Poirier (07:17)
Finally.

Dustin Hogan (07:33)
not reactively. know, lot of the older guys that I work with, it's like, you know, things need to completely implode before they reach out and nothing wrong with that because I'm here for it. But a lot of the younger dudes, you know, 20 years old, they've now got some benefits through their job. They're saying, okay, I really want to get ahead of things here. So they're going to reach out proactively to build those tools. And quite frankly, that inspires me. I mean, if that's the next generation that's wanting to get ahead of it, we're going to be in good hands. So

Robert Poirier (07:34)
Great.

Dustin Hogan (08:03)
Those are some of the things I see on a daily basis.

Robert Poirier (08:06)
Yeah, I, you know, it's interesting because on, once a week, I lead, basically a divorce recovery group and it's a mixed group. ⁓ you know, it's men and women, ⁓ and as you would expect, I mean, there's a lot more females in there than there are men. I know that we traditionally do not ask for help and I want to go into that in a little bit. but that's encouraging.

that the younger generations ask for help. know, one of the, one of the things I've always been very pro therapy. think therapy is great. And one thing that's always frustrated me is, you know, I'll have colleagues and friends that will go spend a, and I've talked about this before. We'll go spend a couple hundred dollars a session for golf, you know, go spend a couple hundred dollars a session to improve their tennis game, you know, for a fitness trainer.

Dustin Hogan (08:52)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (08:59)
but they're struggling with everything else in their life and they don't want to admit and they don't want to go to somebody and just sit down and say, Dustin, I'm just overwhelmed or I'm lost. ⁓ let's jump into that. Why do you think that is with men? Like, why do you think we're so maybe, I mean, we're, guess we're programmed that way, but we carry such the weight of the world.

Dustin Hogan (09:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (09:27)
on us at times and don't want to share it. It's, you know, I've talked about vulnerability before, so hard for us to be vulnerable.

Dustin Hogan (09:36)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (09:36)
What are your thoughts?

Dustin Hogan (09:37)
Yeah, I've got a lot and I think the first thing that comes to mind is, know, as men naturally, we're fixers, we're problem solvers. So a lot of the time if something's not going right internally, we default to that natural ability or at least that natural desire to want to fix things or problem solve ourselves. But I often say, you know, there's nothing to fix because we're not broken.

But at the same time, being able to just unload some of these things to somebody else, man, it just creates such a sense of relief and to feel like, you know, there's somebody else that truly understands us at a deep, deep level. But with that said, I get it, man. Like reaching out to a counselor or therapist is a scary thing. I know it was for me initially because that was the first thought I had is like, is there something wrong with me? Are people going to judge me? Are they going to think that I'm

Robert Poirier (10:24)
Yeah.

Right.

Dustin Hogan (10:30)
not capable on and on that, you know, the BS story went on in my own mind. So oftentimes that's what I see with guys, especially those guys that are reaching out when they're at rock bottom, they feel like they've got no way out. You know, they've tried everything they can do to fix themselves. But once again, it's not about being broken. It's just about having that support. And I love that you bring in, know, the golf piece or the trainer or the, you know, the tennis instruction. I think of the same thing when it comes to therapy, it's like,

You know, having somebody to give you the tools to better yourself the same way that you want to better yourself in your passions or your sports, nothing wrong with that. It's just bettering ourselves mentally and emotionally so we can be that best version of ourselves for everybody around us. Because to me, when I'm the best version of myself, everybody benefits. My friends, my family, my clients, you know, the barista at Starbucks, it becomes this positive ripple effect. So...

⁓ To me that's the real benefit of all of this but going back to the original question is to me it's because we default to trying to fix everything and problem solve when if we just reached out for a little bit of help and support as scary as that is it's hugely hugely beneficial

Robert Poirier (11:45)
You know, I was talking to somebody a few weeks ago and he was telling me a story and he was like most guys Don't share the struggles with work, the struggles with life, with bills, with all of that and just holding it in. His wife kept talking to him about you need to be more vulnerable, vulnerable. You need to open up. And so he did.

he started and he said, it went great. He said, and then she started telling me I'm too sensitive. And you know, this isn't a knock by any means on females, but I think there's kind of a balance there too, right? That men might face like, Hey, you know, okay, I'll open up, but then you've got to be a little bit protective too of how much do you share? Cause I know me it's

Dustin Hogan (12:14)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (12:33)
I can talk on me like it's tough to share. It's very tough to share the, when you're carrying it all on you. And, you know, I remember walking in with, you know, you walk in, you want to have the happy face on and, I've talked about just sitting in their car for about 30 seconds before they go inside, just kind of to decompress and put on a happy face and, and, ⁓ go in and,

You know, it's tough. It's very tough for men. It's a challenge. how much do feel that social media contributes to men's mental health? You know, the kind of the, the pressures that we face.

Dustin Hogan (13:00)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean that one really, really hits home. I mean, I'll even just speak about my experience on social media and how it's impacted my mental health is one of the things that I can get caught up in and so many of the clients that I speak to get caught up in as well as this comparison trap. know, social media is everybody's highlight reel and you know, social media is I'm only posting the highlight reels as well. So.

If I get on there and see, this person's doing that, or this person's on vacation, or they look so happy, on and on the critical voice goes, it really becomes this almost insidious poison that can just slowly impact things. So in one sense, it is a tool. It is great to connect in some ways, but I think there's gotta be an immense level of mindfulness going into it that, hey man,

This is not real life. This is a glossed up version of what real life is. So it's that comparison trap that I know a lot of guys, myself included, can get caught up in, which then leads to things like, you know, even imposter syndrome is like, who am I to be, you know, sharing this message with the world when this person seems to be doing it much better or whatever judgment I'm having in the moment.

So I really had to be mindful of that, and especially on days where maybe I'm feeling a little bit more down or anxious, I default to social media as a way to check out, but on those days when I'm down, it's actually feeding that feeling even more. So really working on that and talk to clients about that daily, weekly as well, because it's such a big part of our world these days.

Robert Poirier (14:51)
Yeah, the comparison's huge. Comparison is huge because it is a highlight reel. You you see, whether it's you see families on nice vacations and you might be struggling or, you know, ⁓ they look all happy. Look at them. Look at, you know, the family and the husband and wife. They always post stuff where they look so happy and here.

You know, my significant other and I have been fighting for the last hour and she's not talking to me right now. And, you know, I don't know what the future holds for us. ⁓ that's where I hate it. I just feel like so much of social media is a lie, you know, with your Facebook, your Instagram, ⁓ cause it is a highlight reel. And I think we struggle with that. You know, you talked about it earlier with, you know, I was thinking.

Dustin Hogan (15:23)
you

Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (15:39)
talking about, you were talking about the news and I was thinking about like Twitter or X. it's, ⁓ that will wear you out in and of itself. And, ⁓ you know, I feel at times where I just have to get off and, know, I, I've, I've said it before. I had a guy on here. I was talking to him about it. And as you probably know, being near us before the presidential election, it was.

Dustin Hogan (15:47)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (16:08)
the months and weeks leading up to it. It was a circus. It was literally a circus. And I was so overwhelmed. My Twitter was getting bombarded with stuff. ⁓ You know, go on YouTube and it was getting bombarded. was, you know, the podcast I usually listen to, it was just so negative and so this and that ⁓ the news, I literally just had to take a break.

Dustin Hogan (16:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (16:38)
And, really checked out. I was going to work one day and, and, ⁓ I wasn't like, was listening to podcasts. I'm like, no, not you too. And I'm like, that's it. We're driving in silence to work. And I did not listen again or get on Twitter till after the election, but I literally felt so much better inside just kind of.

Dustin Hogan (16:52)
Yeah.

Robert Poirier (17:05)
you know, deprogramming, whatever it may be. I think that's a huge part of it though. Huge part that we struggle with. So, ⁓ what other, are there other causes? I mean, I, know, you know, I, we've talked about societal issues, you know, you know, I'm sure marriage plays a lot into it. ⁓ substance abuse. Or do you see a lot of that in your practice and imagine it's kind of.

Dustin Hogan (17:09)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (17:32)
contributes to it, but that could be the result of these pressures is that

Dustin Hogan (17:38)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, we haven't even talked about certain, you know, childhood traumas that that a lot of men had have gone through. know, you even think of something like sexual abuse. And, you know, I certainly wouldn't say that I'm an absolute expert in that field, but I'm blown away by the number of men that do reach out to me that have, you know, suffered some sort of sexual abuse as a child. And, you know, a massive sense of shame and embarrassment ⁓ of like

how could this have happened to me? And then over above that, not talking to anybody about it because of the immense shame, you know, as a young boy or a man. ⁓ So that has, you know, contributed in a lot of ways to a lot of the things that some guys that I work with are dealing with. ⁓ You know, other aspects as well. I mean, even going back to the purpose piece from a career standpoint, you know,

losing a job, especially as a man, once again, the impact that that has on our identity, which then results in lower self-esteem or lacking self-worth. And I think all of these factors come together. I mean, of course, no client is exactly the same as the other, but it's fascinating to me the number of factors that lead to somebody reaching out. I even think of kind of my journey over the years,

incredibly supportive family, great parents, great sister, a lot of great friends. But we moved a lot growing up. We moved seven times before I was 14, just with my dad's job at the time, which on one hand was incredible. I got to experience a lot of things, forced me to learn how to go into new environments and connect quite quickly. But the other hand is it's left me with this sense of like, where do I belong? Where is home?

⁓ And I know that that's impacted my mental health over the years. So a lot of different factors come together that lead somebody to pick up the phone and quite frankly, you know, lot of guys will think about reaching out to me for weeks, if not months, and then eventually make that call. You know, I just spoke to somebody last night who said, you know, I've been kind of following you and, you know, I've had my eyes on your website for the last two, three months before I reached out. So.

Reaching out for that call initially is difficult because there's so much weight on us for so many different reasons.

Robert Poirier (20:05)
Yeah.

It's interesting, I had never thought about sexual abuse in childhood. I bet that does have a huge impact.

Dustin Hogan (20:10)
Mm-hmm.

Massive because it's it's impacting their sense of self self-worth self-esteem then impacting the way that they show up in relationships and many of the men that reach out to me and Do openly and vulnerably share that with me and and I'm just incredibly, you know admirable for them to take that step But they say man like I've held this in for 20 30 40 years I've never told anybody about that and it just it breaks my heart to think of the pain

that they've carried and the shame, the deep, deep shame of what's wrong with me rather than what happened to me. So yeah, dudes are carrying a lot, man.

Robert Poirier (20:55)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓

We do carry a lot and we mask a lot, right? I would, do you have, do you have any, I know we've kind of gone into it of why do we do it, but is there, is that, do you think that's just how we're programmed? You know, one just kind of in our DNA and maybe going back to, I think about when I was young and one thing I've really tried to keep from the boys.

you're a man, suck it up, you know? But I think at least for generations that was told for so long, know, men don't cry about that. you've got to suck it up. Is that a lot of the, is it part of the maybe DNA, but then also our programming?

Dustin Hogan (21:23)
Mm-hmm.

I would say so yeah because it's interesting like growing up I never received those messages from my dad either right like at no point was it don't cry or suck it up man up yet for some reason that message you know whether it was societal or other experiences that I had really really hit ⁓ at a deep deep level and

You know, it is tough because in some senses, you know, as men, we want to just push through and soldier on. And I think to a degree that is, you know, a powerful characteristic and part of who we are. Yet at the same time, when the pendulum swings too far over, that's where it really becomes counterproductive and can negatively impact us in a lot of ways. So finding that middle ground to me is often the difficult part of this work of like, yeah, I want to show up.

I wanna be strong and powerful and courageous, yet to me a big part of courage is actually reaching out when things aren't going well. If I should be tough and strong at any point, it should be tough and strong to say that, things aren't going okay right now. And being mindful of who I'm sharing that with because, yeah, we wanna have that support system, but also it's like being aware of who we're sharing things with.

has also been an important piece of the puzzle for me as well.

Robert Poirier (23:04)
Yeah, I wonder too.

You know, since COVID, I don't know how you guys were up there. have an idea, but there was a huge lockdown here and everybody, not everybody, but a lot of people here had man caves, right? And you guys would get together and whether it's to watch Monday night football or football games on Saturdays, things like that. If you have four other guys in your friend group,

There's at least two of them that have a nice man cave and everybody would get together. COVID ended all of that. You know, you could not see people. and now, you know, we went a few years with that. Now you don't see guys getting together as much. And I've wondered if that has, or what impact that has had on men, just those buddies to be able to say, man, you know, when they, you know,

Dustin Hogan (23:59)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (24:02)
good friends when somebody asks you like, how's it going? It sucks. this week has been so hard. I'm about to, I'm afraid I'm about to lose my job. I don't know how I'm gonna pay my mortgage next week. You know, my wife's been bitching at me for the last two weeks about whatever. kids won't stop crying. ⁓ you don't really, I feel like guys just

Dustin Hogan (24:14)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (24:25)
Don't have that outlet as much. you see that? Do you think there's anything kind of a relationship there?

Dustin Hogan (24:32)
Most definitely. mean, you know, the loneliness epidemic is, I mean, it's been studied and, you know, quoted in so many ways these days and especially, yes, coming out of COVID, you know, it was potentially an issue before, but it's certainly even more so now. And that's another topic that almost on a daily basis, I'm talking to guys with, you know, either they've come out of a relationship or they don't have family that they're connected with.

You know, they go to work, put in their eight or nine hours and then they come home and it's like, well, now what? Uh, you know, and maybe friends that they have are married and have kids and it's like, yeah, it is, it is a huge, huge struggle. And. You know, it was something that I recognized in myself as well. And one of the things that I actually did with a really close buddy of mine is we started a book club book club for dudes. And, uh, you know, it started with two of us and it started during.

COVID when I was still living in Vancouver, he was here in Calgary. We'd meet over Zoom. We would, you know, have a couple of beers and we would review the book and we would go back and forth with choices every month or month and a half. And it's since expanded to five or six guys.

So stuff like that, but the key and the reason I share this is it takes effort. Everyone's busy.

Robert Poirier (25:53)
us.

Dustin Hogan (25:55)
You know, lot of those guys have kids and it's like trying to organize it is difficult, but every night that we do it, you know, by the end of that night, it's like, man, this was, this was incredible. Some laughs, you know, joking around with each other. We've learned a few things. So it is, it is critical, but it does take effort. And I think, you know, sometimes as, as guys, maybe we're not putting in as much effort as we should be for those things because

Robert Poirier (26:21)
or

not.

Dustin Hogan (26:22)
The benefit coming out the other end is incredible.

Robert Poirier (26:26)
We've gotten so lazy and complacent too, since COVID and, ⁓ you know, I noticed that a couple of years ago and I, it was, we were in the same habits, know, watching a ball game and we're texting, ⁓ you know, or maybe rarely somebody would call during it and we'd talk about the play or bad call or something like that. And that was great. But then, ⁓ one of my friends was like, Hey, let's get together for the game.

Dustin Hogan (26:28)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (26:56)
And you know, some people had excuses and stuff. And I think there were three of us and it was so much fun. You're just getting back together and ⁓ look, men need men. We need each other. Women have always, always felt women have been great about having that circle and they have kept that.

Dustin Hogan (27:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Robert Poirier (27:16)
You know, they kept the wine clubs and stuff like that somewhat during COVID and man, picked them, a lot of them picked them back up right after COVID. But we didn't. And, you know, I just encourage people to encourage men out there to, it is tough. But, you know, whether it's watching a game, whether it's going fishing, whether it's hell, I don't know, go have a beer or go get coffee.

Dustin Hogan (27:27)
Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (27:42)
You know, because you need it just as much as the other person does. I mean, there's, there's, it's, it just changes you when you're around other guys.

Dustin Hogan (27:45)
Mm-hmm.

It does. Yeah. There's that brotherhood and that connection and it just, it creates more opportunities for real conversations. And you know, whether it's deep and vulnerable or not, there's, there's that expression that's happening. ⁓ yeah, it's, it's so important. It's funny. Like whenever we go out for our monthly book club meeting, know, whoever chose the book chooses the restaurant. So we go out and every time, know, the server will say, Hey, like, what are you guys out for tonight? And we'll like,

yeah, we're here for book club. And then they'll laugh like, okay, what are you actually here for? We're actually here for book club. It's like, man, that's amazing. So it's pretty cool.

Robert Poirier (28:24)
Hahaha

That's funny. What type books do you guys read?

Dustin Hogan (28:31)
So that's the unique piece is whoever's choice it is or turn to choose it's whatever you want. you know, fiction, nonfiction, I tend to default to more personal development books. So, you know, the guys in the group get ⁓ exactly, exactly. So they're grinding my gears for that. And, but on the flip side, some of my buddies are choosing like incredible fiction that I never would have picked, but it's just.

Robert Poirier (28:41)
Like, ⁓ gosh, here goes Dustin with another personal development.

Dustin Hogan (28:58)
such an opportunity to connect at a deeper level and it really doesn't matter whether you like the book or not because it opens up the door for conversation and connection.

Robert Poirier (29:07)
what what else do you see in your practice?

Dustin Hogan (29:09)
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting, you know, we're talking about relationships and brotherhood here. But the other piece is, you know, romantic relationships is whether guys are married or they're dating. I mean, as we know, relationships are hard. And one of my Yeah, yeah, they are. Yeah, yeah. And you know, the way that I

Robert Poirier (29:27)
Really? They're challenging? I never...

No.

Dustin Hogan (29:37)
and look at relationships, I think of them as like ⁓ a mirror for all of the things that we need to work on. And the deeper the relationship is, the clearer the mirror is. often romantic relationships and partnerships really reflect back all of the things that we need to work on. And yeah, that's scary, but to me it's also an opportunity.

You know, once again, a lot of the guys will reach out to me at rock bottom or in very reactive mode. You know, their relationship is imploding or they're struggling. And oftentimes, so often, it just comes down to communication. And, you know, it's almost cliche to say, but, you know, really working on those deep communication pieces can have such a benefit, not only at home, but then, you know, beyond as well. So,

I think this really highlights the whole point of us guys getting together and talking, right? We're putting in the reps, we're working on our communication skills, whereas that's not necessarily something that we've been taught over the years. And then I think this also ties into the whole emotional awareness piece of being able to understand what's going on emotionally, communicating it effectively and accurately.

not only benefits us, but benefits things ⁓ at home as well. So relationships, whether or not someone reaches out to me because their relationship is struggling, I'd say 99 % of the time we end up talking about it at some point during our work because we're dealing with relationships in every corner of our lives.

Robert Poirier (31:13)
Yeah, that's true. Romantic or not. Yeah, that's very true. And I would think, you you said childhood, I would think a lot goes back to that. How you handle the relationship, you know, are you, do you show affection? Can you receive affection? You know, your commitment, ⁓ how you handle arguments or don't handle arguments. ⁓ There's a lot from our childhood. You know, there's a lot. ⁓

Dustin Hogan (31:16)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (31:42)
I'll look at my kids sometimes and I'll be like, wonder what they're going to talk about in therapy one day about me. yeah, there's a lot that goes back to that. And I can see how relationships has a, you know, whether it's how your parents handle it or whether there's, it's a one parent home. Modeling is a big deal.

Dustin Hogan (31:58)
Totally.

It is, and that was the exact word that's just been popping up in my head is what type of behavior was modeled to us growing up through parents, through teachers, through aunts and uncles, society, grandma and grandpa, those types of things, especially at those early ages and stages where we're not aware of what we're taking in, but the beliefs that we have about the world.

you know, we come to form those by the time we're like eight or nine years old and then we just keep reinforcing them throughout our lives, whether we're aware of it or not. So I think, you know, especially from a therapeutic standpoint, that's one of the very first things I often do with clients is, know, what limiting and negative beliefs are you carrying around with you? And it's not about a blame game of like, okay, I'm this way because that person did that to me.

It's like, okay, that happened to you, so now what can we do with it moving forward? know, easier said than done, because we're talking about a lifetime of reinforcement of these beliefs, but the good news is, is with some intentionality and awareness, we can actually start to shift those beliefs. And it's not about trying to go from super negative to super positive, it's like even just a neutral belief is gonna serve you more at this point.

Robert Poirier (32:59)
Yeah.

So you have somebody that comes into you and they're coming to you for therapy. And my feeling is therapy is wonderful, therapy can help you, but there's other things you need to be doing out there. What are some of the things that you recommend?

Dustin Hogan (33:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and this is really the basis and the philosophy of my entire practice because when I've gone to therapy and counseling over the years, mean, it's great to talk about things, but my life exists outside of the session. So I need tools and strategies to be able to work on. And I found, especially for men, that's so, so important. So I've infused that from day one, launching my practice. So.

Yes, of course we get deep in the session, we dig into the past, present and future, but then leaving the session, there's always gonna be tools and action items to be able to work on. Whether that's taking a look at your beliefs, taking a look at your communication patterns, becoming better at understanding emotions, because at the end of the day, as dudes, if we don't have something to work on and work toward, not to say that the conversation's a waste, but it's just not as effective as it can be. So.

For me and the work that I do with my clients, that's a really important piece of the puzzle is what action items is the client going to be working on beyond the session? Because to me, that's really where the rubber meets the road. And as I said earlier, oftentimes one of the first places we start is with our limiting or negative beliefs, because I almost think of it like, you know, an iceberg where the tip of the iceberg, which we can see is our actions and behaviors, but below the surface, we then have feelings.

thoughts and then deep deep below the surface we have our beliefs which drive our entire cycle of thoughts feelings and behaviors. So if we can first identify those everything else can really start to shift and very practical effective tools I share with clients coming on to sessions because ultimately that's where the progress is going to.

Robert Poirier (35:18)
You know, there was a time in my life where I was going through a very challenging period and I was, I was talking to a therapist regularly and every time he would start out the session, ⁓ tell me how much you've been sleeping on average. Tell me about your diet. Are you exercising? How much sunlight are you getting? There was something else too. And you know,

The first few, was not answering him very well. That's not what he wanted to hear, And you know, and he would tell me like, okay, you need to be targeting seven to eight hours. You need to quit the fast food. You needed to eat more healthy. Okay. Yes. I know it's hard to get outside, but you need to get, try your best to get 30 minutes of sunshine, even if it's just going outside and sitting in a driveway.

and looking up, ⁓ you know, exercise. Okay. You don't want to go to the gym, walk around the block next day. Well, two blocks, you know, start doing that. And I will say that did help a lot. That helped a lot. You know, another thing I think he added in was, what are you grateful for? And that's a very, that was really, you know, in dark times, it's challenging to find what are you grateful for?

And so it's kind of, you know, started looking for layups. Well, I'm grateful that I'm alive today. Grateful that I'm in good health, grateful for my boys, but you know, trying to find, trying to find those. But what I noticed too was once I did those in the morning and started that regularly in journaling, ⁓ it kind of led me to going throughout the day, looking for things that I was grateful for. Does that make sense?

Dustin Hogan (37:03)
Yes, yeah, completely. And I mean, I think the real highlight here is it's not one individual thing that creates overall wellness. It's a combination of everything. And then following it or following through with consistency because then it builds momentum. And even from a habitual standpoint, we're starting to build these positive habits.

Like yeah, I mean this morning, you know, my alarm went off at five and the last thing I wanted to do was go to the gym. But when I walked out of there, you know, at 6.30, seven o'clock, it's like, man, how could I not have done that? Because that was, it's like the hardest part of my day is now done. I know I'm gonna be positively impacted throughout the rest of the day. I'm gonna make better choices in what I'm eating, what I'm thinking, what I'm experiencing. So.

Yeah, think these pieces are so, so critical, but they all come together to just create that momentum.

Robert Poirier (38:03)
I think for me personally, the gym is so therapeutic. Like, and I go regularly. it is so therapeutic for me and I will go in, I'll put my little buds in, and ⁓ sometimes I don't even have anything on. I just, I have them in. I might not even be listening to anything, but it's more of like, don't come up, don't talk because

Dustin Hogan (38:07)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (38:26)
I'm listening, you know, pretending like I'm listening to something. It's just my way to either get the stress out, get the blood flowing. I, I, I'm not a morning person going to the gym. I wish I was, I envy you. Uh, I'm more of the afternoon after the, after work and getting, you know, getting all that stress out. and I tell you what, if I miss a few days, it's, it's like, I have to go back. I have to go back. see my mood change.

Dustin Hogan (38:39)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (38:55)
Like I have to get back in there. ⁓ but I'm a, I'm a huge advocate of going. And even if it's just going for a long walk, you know, but, I think that's, I think that's really big. was curious about that. Cause it's tough. It is tough. mean, look,

The economy, you know, I think you guys are kind of the same with us right now. I mean, the kind of the economy stinks. Uh, the world's crazy. No matter what you might be told at times, the, you know, there's a lot of craziness going on in the world There's a lot of stress, a lot of pressure, throw in social media to add to that. Um, there's a lot on us right now.

Dustin Hogan (39:15)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (39:34)
Do you mind kind of going into what you do? Like how you assist guys?

Dustin Hogan (39:40)
Yeah, and it's something I'm super, super passionate about and I'm constantly working to tweak things and tighten it up. So prior to going back to school for the counseling and the mental health side of things, as I mentioned, it was speaking, but it was also working in the coaching space. So, you know, high performance coaching mindset coaching with a lot of entrepreneurs in the tech space as well. And so it's very results driven, you know, having goals. So

When I launched my practice, I knew I wanted to infuse that in the entire process. really where it starts, it starts with just an initial 15 minute call to make sure there's alignment because especially for guys that are maybe listening now that haven't gone to therapy, fit with your therapist is the most important piece of the puzzle. If there's not good connection and fit there, it doesn't matter how educated they are.

you're gonna struggle to find ⁓ success. So that 15 minute call is really a non-negotiable because there needs to be fit between myself and the client. Once we've done that, they fill out a really significant ⁓ in-depth intake form getting clear on what they wanna work on, what their goals are, what they're struggling with. That then gives me a picture, paints a picture of where the client is at. And then we dive into that initial intake session.

using the intake form as a real clear roadmap because at the end of the day we want to feel as men like we're moving in a specific direction. And then, you know, at the end of every session, like I said earlier, we set goals, we have an action plan, there are specific tools and strategies and it's not like across the board every guy's working on the same thing. It depends on what they're showing up with. So it's very customized, it's very specific. And then the other piece of the puzzle, after every session I send a follow-up email

with those action items. So we're now very clear on what they're working on. There's a level of accountability with that as well. So it's really this beautiful mixture of action and accountability where we're constantly moving the needle forward. But keeping in mind, know, therapy is a non-linear process. It's not a straight line. A lot of guys hope that it is. I hope that it is as well at times. But I think of it more of like a spiral where, you know, we're doing work.

Robert Poirier (41:37)
Yeah.

Dustin Hogan (41:59)
but moving upward in a spiral as opposed to just a linear path. having the action items, having the accountability, and then combining that with the deep therapeutic work for men works really, really well. And the other thing that I often say to new clients is part of my job is to actually work myself out of a job. I want to equip them with the tools and the strategies to be able to handle life on their own. Of course, I'm always in their back.

Robert Poirier (42:22)
Yeah.

Dustin Hogan (42:28)
pocket if they need. you know, of course, I also work with clients long term. But the guys have been that I've been working with for a year or two years, you know, we're now working on different things. They've they've crushed their goals. Now it's more on the performance side of things. Or, you know, maybe they were only connecting every two or three months. And now it's like a tune up or a check in. So that's the way that I approach my practice. And it's a combination of, know, what I thought was missing in this field.

what was missing for me in my experience as a client in counseling sessions, but then also bringing together my unique background from ⁓ coaching to the counseling and mental health space to a strong desire for personal development as well.

Robert Poirier (43:13)
You you said about fit and I think that is so important because I've talked to people before and like, yeah, I spoke to somebody, but we just didn't, you know, he just didn't understand me. I didn't care for him. So therapy is not for me.

Dustin Hogan (43:17)
Mm-hmm.

Robert Poirier (43:25)
try two or three or four and see like, who do you, know, who can you have a conversation with?

But what else have we missed anything else? I know just have you on here for a little bit. And I know we could dive into any of these topics for a while, but anything else that you really want to hit on before or advice for men that you want to leave.

Dustin Hogan (43:47)
I think it ties into this last piece here around fit because especially for guys that are maybe reaching out for the very first time, recognizing how terrifying and how ⁓ difficult that first step can be. And if you do reach out and have a session or two and don't feel like it's a good fit, as you said, don't give up because at the end of the day, it's like that first

that first person you talk to may not be a fit for you. It's like dating, right? You know, the first date you go on is sure, maybe it results in a partner for life, but more often than not, it doesn't. So being willing to work to find that right fit, because when you do, man, like it's worth its weight in gold because you've now got that person that truly can see and understand us at a deep, deep level. So that's...

Robert Poirier (44:35)
Yeah, it is.

Dustin Hogan (44:43)
To me, one of the biggest takeaways from this conversation for guys that are reaching out, especially for the very first time, if it isn't a home run coming out the gate, it doesn't mean it's a failure, it doesn't mean that therapy is not for you, it just means that it potentially might take a little bit of effort. But when you do find that fit, it's going to be so beneficial in so many ways.

Robert Poirier (45:02)
Yeah, I love that. And you know, another thing too is you're not alone. Every man is struggling with something. I don't care what it looks like. I don't care. He's making 50 million a year. He's there's something he is struggling with. He might be hiding it, but everybody is. And, ⁓ yeah, I think that was a big thing for me just talking to other men and, you know, finding out what they're going through. And sometimes you find out and you're like,

Damn, my life is so bad. Why am I upset? You know, why, why do I feel this way? He's dealing with a lot more, but that's a big thing. All right. So your sessions, it's not necessarily in person, your zoom, your, how are those conducted? Can you work with people in the U S what

Dustin Hogan (45:32)
Mm-hmm.

So my whole practice is virtual over Zoom at this point. You I may have an in-person space here in Calgary at some point, but quite honestly, more of that is just so can get out of the house. ⁓ You know, I love this office space that I've set up here. It's super comfortable. ⁓ So yeah, right at this point, my whole practice is virtual. Can definitely work with men, you know, in the States and throughout the world, but that would be more of in a coaching capacity.

Robert Poirier (46:14)
Right,

right.

Dustin Hogan (46:15)
You know,

limited from a therapeutic standpoint here in Alberta ⁓ and other parts of Canada, but definitely have worked with guys all over the planet and happy to support in any way that I can.

Robert Poirier (46:28)
Great. How can people find you?

Dustin Hogan (46:29)
For sure, so easiest thing is on my website, therapyfordudes.com. I can also reach out on Instagram at I am Dustin Hogan. And of course my TEDx talk, The Silent Crisis of Men's Mental Health, you can search that up or just search Dustin Hogan and that'll come up right away. But I always encourage guys just to reach out either through my website, through Instagram. I'm more than happy to have these types of conversations, because I think...

more conversations that we have like this, it gives permission to other guys to be able to have these conversations. Whether in a therapeutic setting or not, to me any conversation like this is gonna move the needle forward. So always happy to chat with guys.

Robert Poirier (47:13)
And I will put a link to all of those, your website, your Instagram, your social media pages, as well as the YouTube video that I saw as well. And Dustin, I appreciate you coming on. mean, your heart's in such a good place. Your passion is, I love what you're doing. I thank you. I thank you for this being your passion and your focus of helping men. And again, for the people listening out there, you're not alone.

Reach out, whether it's to Dustin or somebody reach out, you know, to, and, and really go after and try to reform those men, men groups. ⁓ you know, start those again, that's so helpful and beneficial to our mental health. So Dustin, thank you again. I really appreciate you coming on and look, thank you all for listening to the dad to dads podcast.

You can find us on Spotify or Apple as well as most other platforms. You can also find us on Instagram as well as YouTube. Don't forget to hit the like and subscribe button so you don't miss any future episodes. Also, feel free to leave a comment. I love receiving your feedback, especially your recommendations for show topics as well. And look, thank you all again, and we will speak with you next time.