Can You Ever Truly Heal After Betrayal? - How Couples Rebuild Trust

In this episode, Robert and Chelle Theobald dive deep into one of the hardest questions parents face in relationships: Can you really move forward after betrayal?

They unpack why trust takes so long to rebuild, what’s really happening when a partner keeps bringing up old pain, and how couples can stop repeating the same painful patterns.

From trauma responses and nervous system repair to learning how to rebuild safety, this conversation gives dads (and all parents) a grounded, compassionate look at what healing actually looks like — not the movie version.

If you’ve ever wondered why forgiveness doesn’t seem to “fix” things, or how to start rebuilding real trust after it’s been broken, this one’s for you.

How to find Chelle Theobald
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https://www.thecompletecounselor.com/  

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Transcript

Robert Poirier (00:00)
Shelly Theobald, welcome to the podcast.

Chelle Theobald (00:02)
Hi, thank you so much for having me Robert.

Robert Poirier (00:05)
Look, I know we're going to talk about betrayal. Um, but before we do, I just, I really just wanted to learn a little bit more about you, your practice, what you do.

Chelle Theobald (00:15)
Absolutely. I am a licensed mental health counselor in the state of Florida and primarily my practice is telehealth based and I do work with individuals and couples. ⁓ A lot of couples working and struggling with affairs, infidelity and rebuilding and restoring and repairing trust. Also with individuals who've decided not to move on with the partnership.

and then individuals clearly struggling with the anxiety and depression that can come along with betrayal and some of the trauma work that comes with that as well.

Robert Poirier (00:53)
So let's, let's jump into betrayal. I think everybody has kind of experienced it in one form or another with what's somewhere in their life. And it can be extremely challenging to get over with and just what is it, what is betrayal and why is it harmful to relationships?

Chelle Theobald (01:09)
I mean, a really high level description of that is like, ⁓

breach in trust, right? Like it's a break, is a rift, it's something that compromises like the integrity of a relationship for the purposes of our conversation. I'll probably hone in more on in the context of like an intimate partner relationship.

fundamentally it's when there's you know the deception the secrecy the lies like and essentially that creates such a dynamic that folks are on the receiving end of it or kind of left to question everything about the person

Robert Poirier (01:54)
Yeah. So I know, I know you talked about intimate relationships. I guess it can cover just

a whole bunch of different things, right?

Chelle Theobald (02:01)
Absolutely. think the deceptiveness is like the key factor, right? And it's kind of like, okay, would I do this if my partner and loved one was present? And if the answer is no, most people are going to go, okay, well, then this is probably something I shouldn't embark on, right? And so the depth and pervasiveness, I think, depends on the couple to begin with, right? And what they're kind of

Robert Poirier (02:19)
Yeah.

Chelle Theobald (02:28)
rules of engagement, boundaries are with one another and in regard to like all those different aspects of life. But like once the secrecy starts and there's lies and then of course I'm a firm believer that whatever happens in the dark always comes to light.

Robert Poirier (02:46)
It does. ⁓

So if you're to look at, this  probably varies so much, ⁓ what is behind most betrayal? Like, and maybe that's, maybe that's an odd way to say it, or maybe that's not the correct way. You know, I think about with lying. I've always heard that behind lying, the reason why most people lie is because of their shame. And, you know, I was just curious, ⁓ like, or do you see like for men when maybe they're

they are the ones who is committing it. And then, you know, what's behind that?

Chelle Theobald (03:22)
There isn't one definitive answer. mean, I think some of it can be a learned behavior, you know, and it can be shame based. For instance, like you've got like a young child who is being abused, right? And so they learn by whether it's verbal, physical, or a combination of those that not being forthcoming, not being honest.

like telling whoever this abusive person is in their life, like what they think they need to hear in order to protect themselves. Sometimes lies can start at a very early age and then it just, it worked for them then. And then as humans, we're creatures of habit. And so it just kind of persists throughout life. And then another facet is like, if they don't know, won't hurt them, that whole mentality. And so I think there are some folks

like that either have poor impulse control and justify to themselves like, well, he or she is not going to find out about it. And if they don't find out about it, then where's the harm being done? Right. So they've got this false like belief that if they don't know, won't hurt them.

Robert Poirier (04:28)
Yeah, yeah.

Do you feel like it's increasing or kind of where it's been the last 20 years? mean, what are your thoughts? I know that's probably hard to say, but.

Chelle Theobald (04:47)
I think in this day and age, and I'm sure you've heard this before, but with it, like so much thing, so much being digital, right? Like a opportunity, because in respect, that's also like another answer to like.

Robert Poirier (04:55)
yeah.

Chelle Theobald (05:02)
where does it start? Some people are just purely opportunists, right? Or they don't really realize that they're opening opportunity in their lives by simply responding, say to someone on their Facebook account or whatnot. And what starts out is like seemingly innocent. So I'd say, yes, there's probably an increase because of technology. But I also think that there's an increase in people.

finding out because of technology. Like it's kind of a catch-22 for everyone out there.

Robert Poirier (05:32)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No, that's a good way to put it. I haven't thought about that, but when you were, when you were saying it, cause yeah, it seems like, you know, again, let's talk about a physical, if any kind of affair, physical, emotional, whatever it is. ⁓ it seems like before you always thought, that happened at the office. You know, they met at their office or wherever it is. Well now, I mean, you literally, it's right here and you know, on a phone and.

⁓ you know, the conversation can start there, but yeah, when you were talking, I started thinking, well, gosh, they can find out too. So that makes, that makes a lot of sense. Certainly does. So let me ask you this when, with men and women, you know, I've always heard with men, it's, I was just curious about how they view betrayal. Did they view betrayal differently? Are there certain areas of betrayal that are different with men versus women? mean, you know, women I've always heard.

It's more emotional than that type and, man, it's more physical. Is there any truth to that or.

Chelle Theobald (06:36)
I think that's a case by case scenario. think what you're speaking of is more of a societal like vantage point, if you will, of that. And it's like, I don't want to say like the men who have more of a propensity to cheat kind of co-sign that and subscribe to that because then it's almost like a pass. So it's like, ⁓ well, yeah, but it didn't mean anything. Right. Or like I didn't care about that person. And then

Equally and oppositely, it's such a split because then when a woman cheats, it's like, ⁓ well, you're worse because you're a woman and that means that you were emotionally invested in this person when I don't believe that to be true, at least based on the people that I've seen with infidelity and particularly like physical and or emotional.

So I do think that that would essentially be saying like men are like robots and women are like the only like humans in the world.

Robert Poirier (07:36)
that makes sense. You know, it's funny when you were saying that I started thinking like men, seems like when it's found out they've had an affair, they're looked at as just dogs. Like I can't believe they're doing that and you know, breaking up their family and she's so sweet. And then I feel like when women, when it's found out and this isn't, I'm not saying everywhere, but I feel like in society and maybe it's my micro little world that went a

female has found out that she's been having an affair. It's more like, he just must not, be providing her, emotional needs or, he must be abusing her or something like that. Not that they get a pass, but in some ways I feel like they kind of do. Do you, do you see that or not?

Chelle Theobald (08:21)
I mean, again, I think that's a society thing, right? And that's based on that whole fundamental premise that like men cheat just because they can or, you know, the spirit moves them, but it doesn't really mean anything versus like, if a woman cheats, like it must be awful, terrible, horrible. I don't think there's any truth, honestly, when it comes down to it, like to either one of those, like.

Robert Poirier (08:25)
Yeah.

Chelle Theobald (08:48)
categories that men and women get placed in when it comes to infidelity because it has more to do with background, upbringing, morals, character and it doesn't necessarily mean that because someone cheats or is unfaithful or has a physical and or emotional affair that they're a bad person, right? People make mistakes and a lot of people bring what they know about adult loving relationships.

Robert Poirier (08:50)
Right.

Chelle Theobald (09:15)
that they learned at very young ages, which a lot of times are misinformation or like poor examples of what that should look like. And so essentially as adults, they don't really know how to behave and be in a relationship.

Robert Poirier (09:33)
Yeah, that makes sense. So in your practice, I'm sure you've worked with couples who, you know, sometimes the man might be having an affair or the female might be having an affair. I have, and this is my uneducated, I don't talk to couples or anything like that, but I've always heard that with men when they cheat a lot of times, I mean, unless he's like a serial cheater, there's remorse afterwards.

And with the female, there's not because she's already emotionally checked out. Is that accurate?

Chelle Theobald (10:05)
I do see some truth. It is case by case, but I do see that more than any of the other like kind of scenarios you postulated because usually by the time and this is again, not a hundred percent right. The exception makes the rule, but women usually are checked out if they are to head down that path. Like, so that's where the emotion with the woman comes into play. It's not about like a man or a woman.

Robert Poirier (10:06)
Again, is that case by case?

Right.

Chelle Theobald (10:35)
being emotionally invested in their affair partner or not, think more truthfully, like a woman, if she's heading down that path, she's done with the relationship, like her primary relationship for the most part.

Robert Poirier (10:50)
That makes sense. can you give me more background as to why overall what you see or maybe the top three reasons why men cheat or, why

Women cheat.

Chelle Theobald (11:01)
I I think a lot of times for men, it's validation. They're, you know, instead of having, and avoidance, right, of having uncomfortable conversations with their primary partner. And so they just seek outside extraneous, like telling them everything that they want to hear, like, you know, that kind of stuff. And I think a lot of times it does start, even though they don't perceive it like that, on an emotional level, right? Like, because they're having

whether it's a colleague at work or just a casual conversation with, you know, like the neighbor next door at the mailbox or whatnot. But before you know it, like they're unpacking stuff they should be bringing into like the room with their spouse, with this new person. And so the level of emotion is there. And then once that door's open, anything can happen. Even with the most loyal by character, ⁓

and moral standards, right? Like it's almost like when it does happen, a lot of those individuals and men do experience remorse and they almost feel blindsided. But when you go into therapy and you actually like rewind the tape and play out like how you got to that place, it's like, well, your primary relationship is like a haven, right? You're supposed to protect it. You're supposed to keep all the doors closed, all the windows closed. Like you should have a moat around it with gates and like

nothing getting in, right? And then there's just a small little crack in the door with like these innocent conversations. And then before you know it, like the wife's out of town or she's gone for the day with the kids. an opportunity presents itself. And then the next thing you know, like the thing has happened that you never thought was going to happen. But in hindsight, it's like,

Not that it was intentional, right? But like you allowed it because you cracked that door.

Robert Poirier (12:59)
Yeah, that makes sense. about with females?

Chelle Theobald (13:03)
mean, I know a lot of men aren't gonna want to hear this,

Robert Poirier (13:07)
it's ok

Chelle Theobald (13:08)
there's a less likelihood that a woman's gonna be unfaithful and cheat in a relationship versus a man. But I think some of that has to do with financial dependence, socioeconomic factors, you know, it's not necessarily again about morals or character, but, and also to be honest with you, a lot of women are just so busy with everything that they have going on, like, you know,

Robert Poirier (13:24)
Right.

Chelle Theobald (13:35)
caregiving rearing children all the distractions. I mean anyone can make time for an affair but most women that's the furthest thing from their mind especially if they're living with somebody and raising a family with them like I'm not saying that those women can't and don't cheat because they do but again when it comes down to that kind of stuff I do think that it's just upbringing personal like standards right and like personally like this is

lines I'm not willing to cross and even though I can't stand my husband and he's not showing up for me I'm not gonna head down that path because it wouldn't feel right to me at the end of the day and again there are men like that as well but I just think women are less likely to head down that path because women by default are a bit more emotional.

Robert Poirier (14:29)
Yeah, really. Imagine that.

Chelle Theobald (14:29)
connected and men so some of it's hormones

some of it's just the way God made us so

Robert Poirier (14:38)
Yeah,

that makes sense. That makes sense. And so it goes back to for women, it is a lot more emotional tied and guys, it's opportunity conquest. ⁓ you know, you said validation, which I thought was pretty interesting too. I guess maybe, Hey, I still have it or maybe I'm getting, I'm getting ignored at home or whatever it may be. And, ⁓ you know, and, this person at the bar or wherever's giving me attention or on the phone, getting it, giving me attention.

Chelle Theobald (14:55)
Right.

Robert Poirier (15:06)
You know, just think I wonder too, it'd be interesting to look at a study as you're saying that. And I was thinking about it both ways with men and women, the one who's having the affair. I wonder how much our devices get in the way also, because where maybe you would be sitting at home watching a TV show together, you and your wife, ⁓ you know, maybe talking about whatever show was on years ago. Now, you know, they're sitting there scrolling Facebook.

or Instagram or whatever it may be. And there's just not that communication going on. there, you know, instead of what maybe they should be bringing home with maybe the stress or their feelings or whatever it is, they're dumping on somebody else and building that connection there. I guess, I guess the, guess the going back to it or to circle around as much as we love our phones in the electronic world, it could be kind of evil too, right?

Chelle Theobald (15:50)
Absolutely.

Absolutely. mean, I think, you know, the internet's great. You can find a lot of facts and resources. It can be entertaining. It can be just like a mindless way to kind of like for some folks decompress, but just like, you know, with the kids and managing like their screen time, I'm going to venture to say that there are.

Robert Poirier (16:18)
Right.

Chelle Theobald (16:21)
just as many adults out there who are completely disconnected from what is around them. They're not staying present and they're not communicating with someone who's literally like sitting right next to them or in front of them. And I think, you know, instant gratification, which is kind of where our culture is, unfortunately,

Robert Poirier (16:28)
Such a

Chelle Theobald (16:44)
I suggest for most couples like to put the phones down, like do what you need to on there, give yourself time and space. But when you're physically present and honestly, this is outside of couples too, with any human, I think that it's a kind of undermining, rude undertone. you've got a whole person right in front of you that's giving you their time. That's super valuable, right? And yet you're choosing to just connect.

with your screen and just scroll endlessly which we all know you can get on Instagram and the reels will keep coming.

Robert Poirier (17:16)
⁓

yep. So let me ask you this. What are some ways that I can prevent, you know, that entering our relationship betrayal and enter any way.

What do you recommend to couples?

Chelle Theobald (17:30)
That is a really great question. mean, for one, like establishing what's okay and what's not. Some couples are okay with, you know, texting a coworker repeatedly that they may have some sort of romantic interest, which you also know that they're holding back because let's be honest, we all kind of know, especially when we're engaging with somebody of the opposite sex, if there's some,

thing in the room, right? Like energetically, like all of that. So it's not like you can just stick your head in the sand and pretend like this person doesn't have the hots for me when you know that they do, right? And then if you continue to entertain that just, you know, to placate them or because maybe it feels a little bit good to have this attention, you're heading down a really slippery slope. And to me, like it's not if, but when, if you continue to engage, especially in opposite sex,

Robert Poirier (18:06)
Right.

Chelle Theobald (18:24)
like relationships where you've already got your core group of folks in your life, right? your quality circle of people. I think you get to a certain point, especially when it comes to making new friends. if you're in a committed, loving relationship, it's just like risk benefit. is it worth it? You know, is it worth it for me?

to respond to this person when it's clear that these vibes are not a business relationship type conversation. And then also being completely transparent with your person, right? And having an open book policy, which I know there's a lot of people all over the place with this and it's ⁓ you should just trust me. you should just trust me.

What's mine is mine kind of, and what's yours is yours regarding privacy, right? And there's a difference with like a controlling person who's accusing you and that's a whole nother conversation. But for a normal healthy couple, it's kind of like your phone is mine, mine is yours. If your spouse or your intimate partner that you're committed to is like, hey, babe, I my phone's dead, can I use yours? Shouldn't be a problem, right? So I think.

Robert Poirier (19:15)
Right.

Chelle Theobald (19:35)
Even when things come up, like say in a work environment and you're like, Hey, babe, there's this colleague of mine. I just want you to know, I don't, I'm squashing it, but I want you to be aware. this is what the conversation was and this is how I handled it. You know, cause again, secrecy and hiding or instead of just going in and deleting the messages and pretending like it never happened and not addressing it head on, like, Hey, you know, I,

Robert Poirier (19:59)
Right.

Chelle Theobald (20:03)
However you want to handle it, less is usually more with people, but creating gates and walls and windows in the relationship so that it is like Fort Knox, right? you're protecting what's important to you and prioritizing your primary relationship. And if that means hurting somebody else's feelings to protect the us of the relationship, then so be it. I mean, it's not about being mean. You can say what you mean and not say it mean.

Robert Poirier (20:27)
Yeah.

Chelle Theobald (20:33)
But if you're willing to sugarcoat something for someone that you know is kind of cracking open a door or could be leaving a window even this much open for the sake of maintaining that relationship, the answer should, hard and fast, always be no. I mean, because if you do that, infidelity can happen even to the best couples on the planet that

If you're not mindful about when you share what you share your personal information to and that really should be between you and your person. You know, there's certain parts of you in your internal world, your hopes, your dreams, your struggles, in challenges, I mean, close friends, family, you know, like that safe core group of people that are healthy, but

stepping outside of that or allowing for certain conversations even to ensue between someone of the opposite sex is just why? Why risk it?

Robert Poirier (21:34)
Yeah, that makes sense. You know, I just think, you know, and talk about Instagram. I was talking to a couple, um, and they were giving me kind of their, if you want to say ground rules and if they are going to, going to follow somebody of the opposite sex, they sound so bad and they didn't say approved, but they basically have to get it approved by the other partner. Like,

Hey, I was thinking about following whoever, are you okay with that? And they're both fine with that.

Before we go into, you move past betrayal? ⁓ there was a question when you were talking, came up and I thought always, you know what, once a cheater, always a cheater. Is that accurate?

Chelle Theobald (22:17)
You know, that is a quote that like flies around. The answer is no. I do believe that, I mean, in our humanness, we all make mistakes, right? We all sin, we all sin differently. And I believe that

A chronic cheater is someone who's got you have to look at patterns when it comes to folks, right? So you look at the big picture stadium lights, right? And you're like, okay, for the trajectory of this person, like historically, do they habitually lie? are they deceitful, like for their gain?

and it's essentially harming someone else, but they're running kind of like fundamentally in a lot of areas of their life. Like if they don't know, it's not gonna hurt them mentality or is this like pathological, But I think the first time that it enters the room, again, like I've seen like the even really good Christians, right? Who

have a close relationship with God and they end up failing. But again, it kind of goes back to those early childhood experiences that can shape and form good or bad, right? how we carry ourselves in adult relationships. And if we have no guidance or no one to really look to say mom and dad weren't together and we never saw dad or vice versa and we just didn't.

really know what love was supposed to look like and then we're basing it off of fictional movies with fairy tale endings or, having this really unreasonable expectation of what love looks like or we saw a bunch of infidelity and then it becomes someone's mindset, like, okay, well everybody cheats, so I'm going to cheat, And so I don't think that

Robert Poirier (24:02)
Yeah, that makes sense.

Chelle Theobald (24:05)
wants a cheater, always a cheater. And I think if you're with somebody for long enough and have a trail like is, it's confirmed, you've got the facts, information, you've ran the investigation, they're caught red handed. Usually, especially if you end up like in a therapeutic setting, full disclosure is required in order to move on. And that's not just necessarily that one for some folks. You do find out that there are some other things sprinkled along the way, maybe.

lowercase letter, maybe not capital letter like betrayals, but that we're leading up to that. And even then, as long as someone's remorseful and they're willing to change, then there's a very good indicator of a successful recovery from like never cheating again. But that's more to do with like protecting the relationship and keeping those doors and windows.

putting the moat around it and then also installing the gate and not letting outliers because there's vultures everywhere in society and in relationship and they prey like on vulnerabilities, So they'll swoop in and if you don't have that thing locked up, it's not if but when like an affair is gonna happen.

Robert Poirier (25:25)
Huh? So you can move past betrayal. Couples can move past and does is what you're saying. Can they ever get back to the relationship, the level of relationship they had or, or is it, know, say their relationship before was a nine on a scale of one to 10 is their relationship stuck maybe at a six from here on out. If they do decide to work together or what to stay together.

Chelle Theobald (25:52)
Absolutely,

absolutely not. And you speak of like the relationship before, which that's just what it is once a betrayal happens and there's that rupture in the relationship, that relationship really is no more. Right. And so once you go to recover from infidelity and a deep betrayal, you're essentially taking the good from the past, But leaving that negative behind and

Literally, even if you thought it was a nine it wasn't a nine And so you're essentially pouring a brand new foundation, Because underneath that rupture was a crack and it doesn't necessarily mean the other partner was doing something wrong, But there were definite cracks. And so the idea is, that you repour, you

find that solid foundation because again for a number of different reasons people come into like adult loving relationships with completely erroneous wrong ideas about what that's going to look like and they carry themselves accordingly thinking that they're doing everything right based on their experiences and what they've seen and what they've heard.

Robert Poirier (27:10)
Okay. And I guess the first step, and I want to go into kind of, know we don't have time to literally walk through every step of, of, how you help couples overcome it. But I guess the first step would be, do you want to stay in the relationship? Like, is it worth trying to work this out? ⁓ but after that, what are the, what, how do you help couples?

Chelle Theobald (27:33)
I mean, you're correct. Like so clearly, if someone shows up in a couple of sessions with me, they've already made the decision, they're both willing to work through this and they're just like, hey, we need the tools and resources to help us get to the other side. Obviously love still needs to be present and in the room because without those two things, you're going nowhere fast. The only time I'd say it's really when those, when you have someone in front of you and

they want to work on things. The only time I wouldn't carry on the work is if there is a chronic infidelity situation in the room. Not to say that you can't address that later, but I do believe in that case, whoever the highly repeated betraying party is, they need to their own individual help first. And then,

After that, the couple can reassess and see like, hey, do we have a good jumping off point? Do we still love each other? Do we want to work on this? ⁓ I think the most imperative thing is full transparency and accountability, Because you're you're you've got a partner that's been betrayed who's literally had the rug pulled out from underneath them. So everything that was solid, the ground that they stood on is no more. And so there's a lot of hyper vigilance. There's a lot of ruminating. There's a lot of

like central nervous system stuff going on with the betrayal. it actually creates a trauma in that person, right? Because it's like, this is the person that I loved and trusted with my life, And they're actually the one who did this to me. So it creates a lot of internal turmoil, strife, all of those things. So not only does the couple need to be willing to work through, but the betraying party also has to be willing.

Robert Poirier (29:00)
Yeah.

Chelle Theobald (29:21)
to sit with the uncomfortableness of the aftermath of their actions with their partner. And that really just looks like being accountable, Being fully transparent and as uncomfortable as it may be, full disclosure about the betrayal, whatever. And it's not guided by the betraying party, but the betrayed party, whatever questions they may have. And the only, again, kind of,

stopping point with that is behind the bedroom door. like I always tell clients anything outside of that only because there's already trauma inflicted on that person and then they're getting a visual which could create unnecessarily more trauma. Like we know the betrayal happened, the details regarding that aren't important and it's not that they don't matter but it's more about

Robert Poirier (30:00)
Yeah.

Chelle Theobald (30:15)
getting the person who was betrayed and like the safest emotionally and kind of stabilized, if you will, that's a very destabilizing conversation and just not, it doesn't serve a good purpose in the therapy room. And then again, full openness with whereabouts you know, a lot of times the betraying party is like, oh, you're being controlling or you should just trust me.

That's an indication that as much as two people are saying that they want to work things out and that they love each other, that if the betray betraying party isn't willing to just kind of surrender and be accountable, and they just want it to go away. Okay, well, everybody wants it to go away. Like everyone wishes they had the remote control and they could hit the fast forward button and they could be to the other side of it. That's not how it works. So I mean, I

I do believe that consistency with showing up emotionally, even when it's really uncomfortable for the party who inflicted this whole wound on the relationship is imperative.

Robert Poirier (31:21)
As you're saying that, I mean, this isn't a few sessions and you're done with them. I mean, this could take years, correct?

Chelle Theobald (31:28)
Correct. mean, there's no definitive timeline. I would say more often than not, you could pull an average, not necessarily in the therapeutic room, but as far as really moving through this, like two years. and I mean, it can be less, it can be more. There's again, so many factors that come into play. like the first time that this has happened with this couple? Is this a repeated thing?

Is there like, you know, some background stuff with one or the other going on here? Or like the person who was betrayed, do they have previous trauma? Right? And did this just reopen Pandora's box? So is it gonna either put them a little further ahead because they've already done this kind of work? Or is it gonna be a huge setback, like psychologically and emotionally, which I mean, it varies, but no, it's not quick and easy. I'd say most folks like.

in about four weeks or so start to experience some relief regarding, but it's very baby steps, right? And it is a journey. And that's the whole thing. with therapy, especially with betrayal recovery, it's a commitment. and it does require outside of like therapy sessions, like a bunch of work on both parties part.

Robert Poirier (32:46)
You know, I'm going share a story, a couple that I'm friends with. I'm going try to make this pretty vanilla just in case they listen. ⁓ The husband was doing some extracurricular activities, say drug abuse or drug usage, illegal drug use. And she found out about

And, you know, it threw her for a loop, understandably. So, I mean, for a lot of different reasons, one, because of what he was doing, uh, two, because she didn't know about it. Um, also he was hiding it from her. was spending, you know, their resources doing it. He had dropped some of his responsibilities because of that. and so they went through a very hard time of.

are we gonna stay with the marriage? Are we gonna stick with the marriage? Are we gonna fight through this? And he actually went to a rehab facility for a little while. they've been going to couples counseling for a while now. And... ⁓

Chelle Theobald (33:40)
you

Robert Poirier (33:53)
You know, even speaking with him the other day, he was telling me like, it's still really tough. He said, but, and this is, this was a while back when this happened. said, but now what I feel like happened is happening is she is now using this. said, I feel like we kind of move past it to a certain, to a certain state. And then now she's using it more as control with other things, ⁓ throwing it back up into his face.

On, he said like every single thing that, you know, he does disagreement and you know, if she, I guess it's having a bad day and is acting out, she uses that as an excuse. Do you see that or is that, do you think, I'm just curious.

Chelle Theobald (34:39)
Absolutely because I mean regardless of whether it was physical this one was financial right but again like a decomposition and the whole trust factor so what you have to realize is someone on the receiving end of that

their emotional and psychological safety is completely annihilated. And it's with their primary person who they love and care about and trusted the most. So it does, to the central nervous system, a whole bunch of different things, which is complex, but it also makes sense. The body keeps score with anything that happens.

with us like emotionally. so unfortunately, these are kind of like, you you can think of like the initial betrayal, like as the tsunami coming in, And just like wiping everything out. And then there still are, I believe, waves that come in even when there's been a lot of healing, there's been a lot of growth, there's been a lot of reconnection, there's been a lot of restoration. that's sometimes like the nervous system reacting.

still and it catches a lot of folks like even when they're like, well, I've forgiven, right? Like I've forgiven this person like, and I know this wasn't consciously, we know what's in the past, but our body doesn't know that. So at any moment, like no matter what it is, sometimes it's warranted. Sometimes it's completely out of left field that people get struck with like this overwhelming and they probably don't even know what it is, right? A fear like that this thing's going to happen again. So they go into like self preservation.

And they also like, get it, like someone who thinks like, okay, we've had all this time and space, we've done all this work. So why are these things still coming up? Like, are you ever going to let this go? Like, are we going to stay stuck here forever? I think it's important to remember the person who's speaking things about the past or whatnot, they're not doing this from a place of punishment. Although I know a lot of people on the receiving end of that see it as like, this person is just going to

kind of like you said, throw it in my face and bring this up at every opportunity. Most of the time it's not intentional. It's more representative of the pain that they're still sorting through. So his perception of she's using this in this way, this way, this way, and she's probably at times confused herself or doesn't really even understand or know why. Like that ends up being the conversation, but it's a,

like visceral response. again, trust is so fragile and once it's broken, yes, it can be repaired, but it does take commitment. It takes a lot of time. And even after say that two year mark, it doesn't mean it's going to be perfect. I found a lot of couples find deeper meaning with one another as a result of this because of the conversations they end up having that they otherwise never would have. So like that nine relationship you were talking about.

it can actually end up being like an 11, right? Because of it, I'm not saying go out and betray your partner so you can have a better relationship. No, that is not it. So just clear the air with that. That is not a good idea. I don't recommend it. I recommend keeping it safe. But in the event it does happen, like it doesn't have to be the end and it doesn't mean that

Robert Poirier (37:54)
to have an affair so can improve your current relationship.

Chelle Theobald (38:14)
their future relationship if you stay together is completely like just ruined. It is a new relationship and it will be a different relationship. But the idea is it will be a better and more genuine and authentic relationship.

Robert Poirier (38:30)
And you have to work there. You have to work that on both ends.

what have we missed on betrayal? What, if you had to, you know, summarize this or tell me what we miss, what would you say?

Chelle Theobald (38:39)
I think, number one, preventative care, just like with any sort of whether it's mental or physical health is the idea, right? There are ways to prevent these types of ruptures in a relationship, which we touched on that, but I think that is very important. And I think, again, in our culture where our cell phones and this and that, we have all these different like opportunities where we cross paths with

you know, hundreds if not thousands of humans, depending on what you do for a living and travel and whatnot. I think, you know, just being mindful and intentional with those relationships. And also I do think that letting go of not giving a pass to anyone for the betrayal on the front end, you know, just not saying okay, well he's a guy. So there wasn't any emotion involved with it.

So it doesn't really matter because I think that can be a subconscious driving force for a lot of people and just like a built-in almost excuse. That is one thing I will say, like if you're gonna make it through after a betrayal, like that's huge for the betraying party. No minimization. You can't minimize. You can't blame shift. You cannot like say, only did this because you didn't have sex with me for the last two weeks. And so...

Like I have needs and wants and desires. So I went somewhere else. I've talked to you about this for years. clearly if something's not working in a relationship, it's an opportunity for a conversation to see what's behind that. Right. And so I think, also making excuses is horrible. just drop the excuse factory, drop the excuse bug bug. whether it was your childhood and this is what you saw. Yes, that is

part of who you are and hopefully that's something that throughout your journey you're gonna work on, especially if you're working on being a better partner and preventing these things from happening. But when it comes down to the meat and potatoes, especially initially after a betrayal, really being accountable, you can't make up excuses. There is no, well yeah, but you,

or can't you just get over it? Like that's the last thing anyone should ever say to anyone. And I don't care if it's 10 years later and something comes up and it's like maybe surprising to the person in that moment as well. maybe there's still some trigger in the environment, like the same scent of a candle that was in the room, for instance, whenever the affair was found out and then

the partner and they're 10 years beyond it, but that happens to be enough the same that it brings up some emotion. But a lot of times with healing, as much as these feelings come for the betrayed partner, once the work is done, it's like, okay, they come, their feelings just like any other day. We all have feelings and that's okay. But then it also passes just as quickly. And it's almost just like a fleeting thought instead of this

huge mountain that you're having to climb again.

Robert Poirier (41:48)
That makes sense. That makes a lot of

I appreciate you coming on. How can people find you?

Chelle Theobald (41:52)
I'd say the best place with the quickest response is like on psychology today.

Robert Poirier (41:57)
Okay. And then you also have an Instagram page as well. Correct. Well, I know you do because that's how I found you.

Chelle Theobald (42:02)
Yes.

Yes sir. It's the complete counselor. The complete counselor.

Robert Poirier (42:06)
What is it?

The complete

counselor. Okay. And I will put a link on there as well for your webpage and also your ⁓ Instagram. But look, I appreciate you coming on. I know, I'll go ahead and say it now. You are a podcast Virgin for you were you're not anymore. And, ⁓ I appreciate you coming on. know you were a little bit nervous. You did an excellent job and look, I look forward to having you on, ⁓ many more times because there's a wide variety of ⁓ subjects that

and challenges that you cover and that you help people through. And I'd love to have you back on in the future as well.

Chelle Theobald (42:46)
⁓

thank you so much, Robert. And I so appreciate your time and the opportunity to get this out of my like first list, like so I can check it off my bucket list. And I look forward to further conversations with you.

Robert Poirier (42:55)
⁓ You've done it.

Definitely, definitely look. Hey, and thank you all for listening to the dad to dad podcast. You can find us on Spotify or Apple and as well as most other platforms. You can also find us on Instagram as well as YouTube. Feel free to hit the like and subscribe button so you don't miss any future episodes. also leave it, leave comments. I

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